Illegal charter vs Student instruction

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Stets656

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So what is to stop a company from accepting a bunch of public customers and then just claiming them as student pilots and then they fly their trip with a CFI under 91 and completley bypassing the 135 regs....?
 
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I recall a violation, maybe in Florida, for that exact situation using a 414.

I had someone approach me for that when I was a young instructor as well...a rare case of common sense kicked in, and I refused. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
I recall a violation, maybe in Florida, for that exact situation using a 414.

I had someone approach me for that when I was a young instructor as well...a rare case of common sense kicked in, and I refused. ;)
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Yep, the 414 thing. Aircraft that make for good charters make for terrible trainers. Complex, multi-engine, fast, powerful, large, turbine, etc. These make compelling charters. Even a shiny SR22T isn't going to attract much in the way of a charter audience. And good luck getting insurance for your supposed "student pilot" passengers for anything like that. You'd also have to resort to strict word-of-mouth, as any marketing past that will eventually catch up with you. Maybe you could eke out some business in some limited markets with a 206 and still convince the FAA that is was training? And that's the rub: it's nowhere near lucrative enough to risk your livelihood as a career pilot. The number of folks in the right financial and life situation to have this both be possible and tempting must be vanishingly small.
 
It almost certainly would depend on how the advertised the service. Holding out is holding out.

They had best also comply with the regs for giving instruction (such as logging, TSA checks etc...). The FAA cracked down on a pair of CFIs racking up time by alleging to give each other instruction every time they went up together.

I had a friend (lots of family money) who kind of liked the idea of flying more than the idea of knuckling down and finishing his private. He'd grab an instructor in one of our club planes and go where he wanted to go. The instructors were glad to have the money and usually got some free meals out of it in addition to the instruction fee.

Flight schools using a greatly disparate aircraft for primary training is pretty easy to spot. The fake dry leases are more of a concern to the FAA.
 
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Nothing until something happens, or someone points them out to the FAA. Which even when pointed out the FAA is not really into enforcing things the past few years.

But as already said, almost everything we do is on the honor system. There are pilots out there with no medical, flight review, IFR currency. It comes down the majority of us with ethics to play by the rules, and GA safe.
 
If the ‘student’ is receiving ‘instruction’ on the way to the destination, it’s considered flight instruction and therefore legal... it’s just a dual cross country between student and instructor! ;)

:stirpot:
 
Ryanb said:
If the ‘student’ is receiving ‘instruction’ on the way to the destination, it’s considered flight instruction and therefore legal... it’s just a dual cross country between student and instructor! ;)

:stirpot:
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You mean 5 students...
 
Stets656 said:
So what is to stop a company from accepting a bunch of public customers and then just claiming them as student pilots and then they fly their trip with a CFI under 91 and completley bypassing the 135 regs....?
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It's been done. I'm sure there are those who have gotten away with it but there is usually something that happens - an incident or accident leading to an investigation; a real Part 135 operator reporting it; an unhappy customer complaining; in one published case, even the 134.5 operator putting up signs at the airport - which brings it to the FAA's attention.
 
flyingron said:
It almost certainly would depend on how the advertised the service. Holding out is holding out.
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One of these fools actually advertised it on their website: 'I'll fly you wherever you need to go in my Duke, I'll just give you a logbook to conform with some arcane government paperwork requirments'.
 
I remember when I took a ultralight - weight shift - lesson on Kauai many years ago. The flight school obviously handled a lot of tourists and there was an ASI who kept an eye on them. So they were very, very careful about the paperwork identifying the flight as a lesson rather than as a sightseeing tour. And indeed, while the visuals were incredible, it was most definitely a lesson.
 
Is this about flying people around for compensation without being a certified carrier?

Not sure how you can do the "they were all just students". You have to have a license with a student rating to be a real student. Therefore, you just couldn't pick up random people from the public and fly them around.

I'm missing something here.....
 
midlifeflyer said:
I remember when I took a ultralight - weight shift - lesson on Kauai many years ago. The flight school obviously handled a lot of tourists and there was an ASI who kept an eye on them. So they were very, very careful about the paperwork identifying the flight as a lesson rather than as a sightseeing tour. And indeed, while the visuals were incredible, it was most definitely a lesson.
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That must have been quite a while ago. I don't recall seeing them in the past nearly 20 years. It would be interesting to look for when we're there early next year.
 
It wouldn't exactly take Lennie Briscoe to get to the bottom of things when they interview the "student" about the nature of the instruction, and ask the student to demonstrate the flight planning they did to complete the cross country flight.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I guess things have changed. Used to be you had to have a student certificate to solo, but not before that.
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I know you have to have a medical to solo - but I had my license in hand and was “approved” and registered on the IACRA system before I started training. Had to show passport and other ID before training started (fall out from 9/11).

Now I’m not sure how “discovery flights” are handled
 
Brad Z said:
It wouldn't exactly take Lennie Briscoe to get to the bottom of things when they interview the "student" about the nature of the instruction, and ask the student to demonstrate the flight planning they did to complete the cross country flight.
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WDD said:
Is this about flying people around for compensation without being a certified carrier?

Not sure how you can do the "they were all just students". You have to have a license with a student rating to be a real student. Therefore, you just couldn't pick up random people from the public and fly them around.

I'm missing something here.....
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I have given lessons to new students recently and we didn't bother with the IACRA for quite a while - basically, just before solo. So no, you don't need a student cert to get training.
 
Well shoot. Didn’t know that. Then nothing to stop bad guys from getting flight training ?
 
WDD said:
I know you have to have a medical to solo - but I had my license in hand and was “approved” and registered on the IACRA system before I started training. Had to show passport and other ID before training started (fall out from 9/11).

Now I’m not sure how “discovery flights” are handled
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When do I need a student pilot certificate?

Before you can fly solo. You don't need a student pilot certificate to take flying lessons.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/become/student_cert/
 
When I did flight instructing back in the 80's I had a few students where we combined dual cross country trips with their business and or personal trips. It was not repletely and just out and back the same day. They were working toward some type of Certificate and not some trip they did not need.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I remember when I took a ultralight - weight shift - lesson on Kauai many years ago. The flight school obviously handled a lot of tourists and there was an ASI who kept an eye on them. So they were very, very careful about the paperwork identifying the flight as a lesson rather than as a sightseeing tour. And indeed, while the visuals were incredible, it was most definitely a lesson.
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This one?

http://imagesdesavions.com/hawaii/trike/trike1.html
 
EdFred said:
I have given lessons to new students recently and we didn't bother with the IACRA for quite a while - basically, just before solo. So no, you don't need a student cert to get training.
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WDD said:
Well shoot. Didn’t know that. Then nothing to stop bad guys from getting flight training ?
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WDD said:
Now I’m not sure how “discovery flights” are handled
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A Discovery Flight can be done without the 49 CFR § 1552.3(h) endorsement. After that they need to provide the proper documents and the endorsement must be recorded in their logbook. A Student Pilot Certificate, however, is not needed until/unless the student is to go solo.
 
Disclaimer: I never checked to make sure my dad was a US citizen or marked in his logbook, since I knew where my dad was born, and his parents, and his grand parents...

Hey TSA, gfy.
 
How about a Private pilot who wants to bring a CFI for additional safety, maybe he’s flying night, IMC, difficult airspace, or has family members on board. Would you think is CFI ok to log that as dual or does that need to be towards a rating/license?
 
WDD said:
Is this about flying people around for compensation without being a certified carrier?

Not sure how you can do the "they were all just students". You have to have a license with a student rating to be a real student. Therefore, you just couldn't pick up random people from the public and fly them around.

I'm missing something here.....
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no not quite lol. Not just taking anyone from the public but concerned about taking a student pilot on a long IFR xc for a business trip...(sometimes w/ pax)
 
Stets656 said:
How about a Private pilot who wants to bring a CFI for additional safety, maybe he’s flying night, IMC, difficult airspace, or has family members on board. Would you think is CFI ok to log that as dual or does that need to be towards a rating/license?
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There’s no requirement that legitimate instruction be toward a certificate or rating. The FAA actually encourages proficiency training. ;)
 
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No doubt it goes on. Also no doubt single "student passengers" in trainer aircraft are probably not at the top of anyone's list of concerns in aviation.

Start advertising or otherwise making it publicly known that this is what you're doing and the FAA will figure out a reason why it's illegal. Then we'll have some new ruling to give us more pedantic crap to argue over.
 
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