Ifr written holding procedure ??’s

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Bobby05

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Bobby05
I’m having trouble with these questions. I understand all the other questions about holding procedures but these are confusing me? Is the holding always to the north of the course the answer is parallel and the answer to the second question is teardrop I figured it would be direct. Could somebody please draw these patterns out and on the map for I can understand it better. Thanks in advance for any help i appreciate it. IMG_2507.jpegIMG_2508.jpegIMG_2509.jpegIMG_2510.jpeg
 
What does Sheppard say in the explanation?
 
Bobby05 said:
I’m having trouble with these questions. I understand all the other questions about holding procedures but these are confusing me? Is the holding always to the north of the course the answer is parallel and the answer to the second question is teardrop I figured it would be direct. Could somebody please draw these patterns out and on the map for I can understand it better. Thanks in advance for any help i appreciate it.
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You didn't draw the holding course correctly. The inbound course points to the holding fix. The outbound turn starts at the holding fix.

The instruction is to hold east of TEMCO. Put your pencil on the line east of TEMCO, and draw a line TO TEMCO. Then, since it's a standard pattern, a right turn at TEMCO. This will put the racetrack on the north side of the airway, not the south side...
 
Let's see if this helps a little. The first thing it is essential to understand is that the direction given in the very first part of any holding instruction is always the location of the inbound course relative to the holding fix. In this case, the instruction is to hold east of TEMCO on V194. That means the inbound course has to be on the east side of TEMCO, pointed at TEMCO. In question 2702, it's standard turn, meaning right turns, so this is the holding pattern. If you are flying eastbound on TEMCO, that's gives you an AIM-standard parallel entry (although a teardrop is also proper).

1701108849064.png

with left turns, the pattern would be this... but the entry choices are the same. I would expect the explanation to say that either parallel or teardrop is correct for both.


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Yeah, you drew the hold wrong. Take the point (TEMCO) and draw your line from it, in this case it’s EAST. You make the turn AT the fix, not go away from it and then turn. The first one is a classic parallel entry, the second could be either teardrop or parallel. Remember, the entry rule is flipped when making left turns (ie., P,T,D) rather than (T,P,D) when making right turns.
 
"I would expect the explanation to say that either parallel or teardrop is correct for both."

Correct based on regulations but there are (at least before the recent test reformulation) questions on which the correct answer to the type of entry into the hold is different even though the entry bearing is on the radial which defines part of the fix. As you suggest, you can either enter parallel or teardrop but the correct answer on the knowledge test is parallel for one question and teardrop on another. This is where Sheppard earns its merit...knowing which 'test' answer is scored correct. One would think that the FAA would have corrected/tossed these questions with conflicting answers years ago but...... :rolleyes:.
 
robin ardoin said:
"I would expect the explanation to say that either parallel or teardrop is correct for both."

Correct based on regulations but there are (at least before the recent test reformulation) questions on which the correct answer to the type of entry into the hold is different even though the entry bearing is on the radial which defines part of the fix. As you suggest, you can either enter parallel or teardrop but the correct answer on the knowledge test is parallel for one question and teardrop on another. This is where Sheppard earns its merit...knowing which 'test' answer is scored correct. One would think that the FAA would have corrected/tossed these questions with conflicting answers years ago but...... :rolleyes:.
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Why is the second answer teardrop? In both cases, you are entering the hold from the exact same direction (exactly opposite the inbound course), at the exact same point, with the exact same inbound course. Right or left turns make zero difference. Do both with the 70° diagram. There's no difference.


1701119651144.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
Why is the second answer teardrop? In both cases, you are entering the hold from the exact same direction (exactly opposite the inbound course), at the exact same point, with the exact same inbound course. Right or left turns make zero difference. Do both with the 70° diagram. There's no difference.


View attachment 122764
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Exactly my point. Regs say either is appropriate but on one question the correct answer is parallel and another identical entry is scored teardrop as correct. One of the many fine examples of FAA test questions that have ambiguous answers.
 
robin ardoin said:
Exactly my point. Regs say either is appropriate but on one question the correct answer is parallel and another identical entry is scored teardrop as correct. One of the many fine examples of FAA test questions that have ambiguous answers.
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I would be asking the test prep organization why they think there's a difference. I doubt the FAA thinks there is.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I would be asking the test prep organization why they think there's a difference.
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They know there is not a difference and explain their position. However, they state that if you encounter this exact question on the Instrument Knowledge test to make sure your answer is the one that will be scored as correct. Stupid to have to play that way and there is enough wiggle room at 80% to pass that you can not worry about the 'bad questions'. However, it still rubs me the wrong way.
 
robin ardoin said:
They know there is not a difference and explain their position. However, they state that if you encounter this exact question on the Instrument Knowledge test to make sure your answer is the one that will be scored as correct. Stupid to have to play that way and there is enough wiggle room at 80% to pass that you can not worry about the 'bad questions'. However, it still rubs me the wrong way.
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I used Sheppard and saw the same explanation on a few of the questions. Shep is all about memorization, so they pretty much say, "If you see this question, this is the answer that will be scored as correct." And I remember this question as being one of those.

I had three CFIs, and they all had their preferences for their own reasons. Making a parallel entry ensures your first turn will be to the protected side and allows you to intercept the hold heading from that side nice and easily. Making the teardrop ensures you'll already be on the protected side to begin with, but it can get a little more tricky when you make your first turn so you don't overshoot - you have to make sure you get far enough in so that your standard rate turn doesn't put you on the wrong side.

I can't remember, but don't Garmins default to teardrop in a case like this? (Not exactly like this, since this isn't a published hold.)
 
Matthew said:
I had three CFIs, and they all had their preferences for their own reasons. Making a parallel entry ensures your first turn will be to the protected side and allows you to intercept the hold heading from that side nice and easily. Making the teardrop ensures you'll already be on the protected side to begin with, but it can get a little more tricky when you make your first turn so you don't overshoot - you have to make sure you get far enough in so that your standard rate turn doesn't put you on the wrong side.

I can't remember, but don't Garmins default to teardrop in a case like this? (Not exactly like this, since this isn't a published hold.)
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The test isn't about preference. It's about recognizing the AIM-standard entries; nothing more. And the FAA will use a 1° difference to differentiate. I'm surprised someone hasn't brought this one up with the FAA testing people. If the question gave a wind, I can see a difference, albeit still an irrelevant one.

Preference is completely different. There are schools which teach only two entries. Everyone teaches direct, but there are those which teach only parallel and those which teach only teardrop. But I will say that if those three CFIS talked about the "protected" side, they need to update their terminology to "holding side" vs "non-holding side." Both sides are protected. One side a bit more but nothing short of a 50 kt direct crosswind will blow you out of protected airspace on the non-holding side.
1701207741748.png

As far as I can tell, Garmin has a definite preference for teardrop in the straight in from the opposite end scenario.
 
I am a fan of teardrop over parallel. For most entries, you end up with a backwards teardrop if you do a parallel anyway.
 
robin ardoin said:
However, they state that if you encounter this exact question on the Instrument Knowledge test to make sure your answer is the one that will be scored as correct
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Hi.
Some of the questions are intentionally created to test your theoretical / mathematical knowledge in these tests and one answer is more correct /exact than the other.
In my opinion that is Not the best approach to writing a test and evaluating and imparting practical knowledge, which is what the goal should be.
In the later tests more and more of these questions are coming up, sign of the times, where trying to confuse and demonstrate how good / bad some of these test writers are, by having one fail a test, and not trying to educate.
I've seen people get so confused about the entry / hold and they used these calculator overlays and other instruments and in some cases they got very far behind and never got in the hold.
There is a difference between theoretical and practical approach, if you do not know how to enter don't delay your entry, if you know the side the hold is on, you need to get in, turn toward the protected area and do the / any turns within / towards that area. GPS makes it easier if you have the hold displyed but if not, getting in the protected area is the safe procedure.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi.
Some of the questions are intentionally created to test your theoretical / mathematical knowledge in these tests and one answer is more correct /exact than the other.
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As someone who has formulated test questions and has taken many standardized exams in my life I understand how and why this is done on some tests. However, I refer to questions on the Instrument Knowledge Test that have a blatantly wrong answer scored as correct in addition to questions with ambiguous answers. This is documented to exist and the only way to get the ”correctly” scored answer is to know how the question is scored. Unfortunately this was not addressed by the time I took the test in the spring of this year but changes were supposed to be made to the test this past summer. If it addressed the ‘bad’ questions, I have no idea. One can hope. Until then I recommend Sheppard to teach one how to answer the questions. :rolleyes: Fortunately, one can still easily get a passing grade even if a few bad questions were missed by the test taker.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Preference is completely different. There are schools which teach only two entries. Everyone teaches direct, but there are those which teach only parallel and those which teach only teardrop. But I will say that if those three CFIS talked about the "protected" side, they need to update their terminology to "holding side" vs "non-holding side." Both sides are protected. One side a bit more but nothing short of a 50 kt direct crosswind will blow you out of protected airspace on the non-holding side.
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I have done holds in 45kts of wind. It does get exciting.
 
Shepard has used an "order of precedence" argument to describe which one is the correct answer, teardrop or parallel. I've never heard of it, no one I've spoken with has ever heard of it, and I've been unable to find any FAA reference to it. Someone should ask them where they came up with that.
 
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