IFR training in non-IFR aircraft

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Big Ed
I have always intended to get an instrument rating. But over 30 years of flying, my interests diverged from traditional GA and towards aerobatics and vintage taildraggers, and I just never got around to it. At this point I do not have a need for a rating and probably never will, because my Decathlon cannot be made IFR legal. But it remains a bucket list item.
I'm currently restoring the Decathlon and updating the panel. By the time I finish adding gadgets, That raises the question: if I designed the panel accordingly, could I make it viable to do at least some of my IFR hood training in? Is that legal?
I will probably have a standard 6 pack with a pair of AV-30's, plus an Aera 796 VFR nav. The Aera provides approach plates. If I swapped the DG for an HSI-capable device such as a GI-275, would that be sufficient to get dual hood training on attitude flying, holds, approaches, ATC procedures, etc? I realize I would need to switch to a different plane for test prep.
 
Do you have a NAV radio or panel GPS along with a CDI?
 
The IFR practical is done in VFR conditions so there is no reason that the airplane must be IFR certified. As long as you can do the approaches and other items in the ACS with your airplane it doesn’t matter.

§ 61.45 Practical tests: Required aircraft and equipment.
Required equipment (other than controls).
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, an aircraft used for a practical test must have—
(i) The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test;​
 
Why could you not if you wanted make the decathlon IFR capable by installing the required instrumentation?
 
You can do all of the basic IFR airwork with a standard sixpack. Add a VOR reciever and CDI and you can do holds, and tracking/intercepting courses. And, you can even get in practice non-precision approaches. So, the answer to your question is YES!

If you still want to do some aerobatics in your Decathlon, you'll be money ahead to go with MEMS based electronic flight instruments.
 
Steamflyer said:
Why could you not if you wanted make the decathlon IFR capable by installing the required instrumentation?
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Because the TC was originally approved for day and night VFR only, and those limitations are stated in the AFM. Legal IFR would require an AFM revision, which the TC holder cannot provide for the 8KCAB. Interestingly, they can do it for the 8GCBC (Scout) and for 7 series variants originally certified under CAR.
That leaves field approval. After much research by the community, only one successful example has been found. A fellow by the name of Ken Bowersox got a one-time STC approved about 15 years ago.
So, in theory it is possible. Ken Bowersox did it, so how hard can it be, right? However, anecdotally the FAA has become much less receptive over the years. Also, this is Ken Bowersox.
440px-KenBowersox.jpg
 
asicer said:
Do you have a NAV radio or panel GPS along with a CDI?
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No, though that could be rectified. Was under impression that the Area 796 provides equivalent functionality to a panel GPS, just not legal. And HSI has a CDI, correct?
 
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Why people buy VFR airplanes and then it dawns on them the aircraft is not compatible with Instrument training is a bit baffling.
 
You can do whatever instrument training your airplane is equipped for. Basic instruments, VOR navigation/approaches/holds if you’ve got that. I wouldn’t suggest using a non-IFR GPS to train for GPS approaches, however.

if you had all of the required equipment for a checkride (ILS or LPV, plus two nonprecision approach types), I believe you could do the checkride in it, even though the airplane itself isn’t IFR-certified. You just wouldn’t be able to accept a clearance, even outside IMC, for training or checkride.

The big advantage of doing at least some of your training in your airplane is that if you do happen to stumble VFR into IMC, you’ve got good training in your equipment on how best to handle it. Regardless of how fully you do or don’t decide to equip it.
 
Even if legal, I'd ask whichever CFII you plan to train with whether they feel comfortable with your plan. In any event, not a big fan of mixing training aircraft with vastly different capabilities-- Train like you fight, fight like you train. YMMV....
 
tsts4 said:
Even if legal, I'd ask whichever CFII you plan to train with whether they feel comfortable with your plan. In any event, not a big fan of mixing training aircraft with vastly different capabilities-- Train like you fight, fight like you train. YMMV....
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Except that it sounds like fighting isn’t the goal of the training.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Except that it sounds like fighting isn’t the goal of the training.
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True, but doesn’t negate finding a willing CFII first though.

We have a partner that can’t find a CFII at any price willing to teach in our C172 w/dual G5s, GTN650, KX-155. Plenty will do IPCs, but none want to take on a student full time. The CFIIs full timing at the 141 school across the ramp have a no compete clause. Another school nearby only has two CFIIs out of 12 instructors. Neither is interested in taking on another student who’s based at another airport.
 
TCABM said:
True, but doesn’t negate finding a willing CFII first though.

We have a partner that can’t find a CFII at any price willing to teach in our C172 w/dual G5s, GTN650, KX-155. Plenty will do IPCs, but none want to take on a student full time. The CFIIs full timing at the 141 school across the ramp have a no compete clause. Another school nearby only has two CFIIs out of 12 instructors. Neither is interested in taking on another student who’s based at another airport.
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No argument there…and add the fact that the CFII would have a very restricted view of the flight instruments.
 
So, while this isn’t the question the OP asked, I wouldn’t worry about building up a Decathalon with anything resembling an IFR panel. Put what you want in it.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I've got a couple of retired airline pilot friends with CFII who would do it for free. That is a big reason I am pondering the hardware requirements.
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Awesome!!! Go for it!!!

In terms of your aircraft being appropriate/legal for a checkride or actual IFR - perhaps that could be its own issue? Start with training & practice first? And perhaps ask your friends whom you would be flying with what THEIR thoughts on panel options might be. Chances are you and their ideas are the most important in this situation?
 
Ed Haywood said:
I've got a couple of retired airline pilot friends with CFII who would do it for free. That is a big reason I am pondering the hardware requirements.
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Have you broached your idea with them? Bear in mind that at some point you're going to have to transition to something else that's properly equipped to take some of your training and the checkride in.
 
One of the "fun" things I did back in the good 'ol days was fly barely IFR capable airplanes on IFR flight plans in good VMC weather. It was a challenge to successfully fly enroute and approaches with barrel heading indicators, venturi-driven Attitude Indicators and a single Narco tube radio.

Of course, by then I was a CFII and considered it fun. I would never attempt that with a LEARNER...
 
MauleSkinner said:
I wouldn’t suggest using a non-IFR GPS to train for GPS approaches, however.
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That is one of my big questions. How different is the Aera interface from an IFR unit? I know the Aera has georeferenced plates and can monitor approaches. Can it replicate other IFR GPS Nav unit functions on an approach? It looks like it cannot interface with a CDI, but it can display an HSI and VNAV indicator. Obviously not legal to fly in IMC, but of any utility to train with?
Any older IFR-legal units that might be cheaply available used? Just have one bay so 430/530 won't fit.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
That is one of my big questions. How different is the Aera interface from an IFR unit? I know the Aera has georeferenced plates and can monitor approaches. Can it replicate other IFR GPS Nav unit functions on an approach? It looks like it cannot interface with a CDI, but it can display an HSI and VNAV indicator. Obviously not legal to fly in IMC, but of any utility to train with.
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VFR GPS's don't have approaches in their databases nor do they have the RAIM error detection/fault exclusion the IFR units have (although the latter isn't a big deal for training only in VFR conditions). IMO trying to do this on the cheap is actually making it harder.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That is one of my big questions. How different is the Aera interface from an IFR unit? I know the Aera has georeferenced plates and can monitor approaches. Can it replicate other IFR GPS Nav unit functions on an approach? It looks like it cannot interface with a CDI, but it can display an HSI and VNAV indicator. Obviously not legal to fly in IMC, but of any utility to train with.
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Can you check RAIM? How would it simulate GPS Approach/WAAS capability, and/or loss of either one?

I think there are just too many way for practicing with a non-IFR GPS to provide negative training towards an instrument rating.

On the other hand, as I indicated earlier, having some training in your specific airplane for VFR into IMC would be valuable.
 
Plus, eventually you're going to need something equipped with a Nav radio or an IFR GPS in order to have a glide slope/glide path for the precision approach requirement in the ACS.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Was under impression that the Area 796 provides equivalent functionality to a panel GPS, just not legal. And HSI has a CDI, correct?
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They're different that at best you would be training for something that doesn't reflect the real world.
tsts4 said:
VFR GPS's don't have approaches in their databases nor do they have the RAIM error detection/fault exclusion the IFR units have (although the latter isn't a big deal for training only in VFR conditions).
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I think I remember the 760 has approaches.
 
asicer said:
They're different that at best you would be training for something that doesn't reflect the real world.
I think I remember the 760 has approaches.
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True but you can’t use the 760 as a stand alone, soul source for IFR navigation. Not sure if the 760 , even though it will show procedures will navigate them. I’m unaware of any VFR GPS, much less a portable, that has approaches in its database that you can actually navigate with course guidance (not talking the moving map overlay as that doesn’t count.) I mean the FAA is clear that only a TSO’d GPS (129/196/145/146 which I guarantee you no portable is) can be used for an approach and goes as far in the AIM to state that all waypoints have to be retrieved from the GPS’s database and can’t be manually entered. IOW it’s one thing to see the approach overlayed on the chart (geo referenced or not) and another to actually navigate it via GPS generated lateral and/or vertical guidance.
 
Kritchlow said:
It’s hard to imagine an IR pilot that has never copied an IFR clearance… On the ground or in the air.
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I give my IR students a clearance to copy starting on about the 3rd or 4th flight. True, it’s not a “real” clearance, but we do fly it, and they get used to copying it down. By the time they get a real one, it is no big deal.
 
Ed Haywood said:
No, though that could be rectified. Was under impression that the Area 796 provides equivalent functionality to a panel GPS, just not legal. And HSI has a CDI, correct?
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Flying a GPS approach is all about procedural training and knowing which buttons to push and when. A VFR GPS ain't gonna cut it as far as doing anything like a realistic RNAV (GPS) approach. You may be able to approximate a GPS approach with a VFR navigator. But, it's usefulness as an IFR trainer is pretty poor.
 
wilkersk said:
Flying a GPS approach is all about procedural training and knowing which buttons to push and when. A VFR GPS ain't gonna cut it as far as doing anything like a realistic RNAV (GPS) approach. You may be able to approximate a GPS approach with a VFR navigator. But, it's usefulness as an IFR trainer is pretty poor.
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What about an old school navigator like a Garmin GPS155XL or similar?
 
DesertNomad said:
I give my IR students a clearance to copy starting on about the 3rd or 4th flight. True, it’s not a “real” clearance, but we do fly it, and they get used to copying it down. By the time they get a real one, it is no big deal.
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Respectfully, I disagree. I think it’s vastly different, but that’s okay.
 
Ed Haywood said:
What about an old school navigator like a Garmin GPS155XL or similar?
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Non-WAAS, so no LPV approaches. GPS175 will get you there. It's $5500 but you get a warranty and I believe you can buy it over-the-counter, unlike the GNC355/GNX375 which require a Garmin dealer.
 
asicer said:
Non-WAAS, so no LPV approaches. GPS175 will get you there. It's $5500 but you get a warranty and I believe you can buy it over-the-counter, unlike the GNC355/GNX375 which require a Garmin dealer.
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Gnc355 is over the counter too, and if a com radio is needed anyway it is a good option.
 
Kritchlow said:
Respectfully, I disagree. I think it’s vastly different, but that’s okay.
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I agree with you.

I'm not one of those instructors who tries to come up with weird instructions to mess up rated but less experienced pilots during recurrent training. I just have them file IFR.
 
If you are just getting an IFR rating for curiosity, then...whatever. But if you intend on actually using the IFR rating, it would be highly recommended to train the way you will fly. The IFR system is now essentially GPS-centric, and GPS approaches are the coin of the realm for non-metro airports. Training the way you will fly means you will be prepared to use the IFR rating once you earn it. If you train just to check a box, and don't stay current and proficient, don't expect those IFR skills to be usable in an emergency.
 
What you need to learn instrument flying:
  • Needle
  • Ball
  • Airspeed
  • Altimeter
  • CDI
  • Radio to drive the CDI
What else you need to file IFR:
  • Generator or alternator
  • The altimeter must be sensitive and adjustable
  • Clock that shows seconds
  • Attitude indicator
  • Directional gyro
What else you need to fly IFR as a serious pursuit:
  • Comm radio
  • Approach-approved WAAS GPS
  • CDI/GS
  • ADS-B Out transponder
  • AFM that allows IFR operations
How far down this list you want to go is up to you. And I'm not sure how much of the required equipment is required for the check ride if it's done under VFR, but you do need to be able to fly at least one approach with vertical guidance. There is at least one time along the way when you'll have to operate IFR, which is a cross-country training requirement to be eligible for the practical test. But you can log a lot of simulated IMC with the old needle/ball/airspeed sweatshop.

In your shoes, I'd set the benchmark for the panel with a G3X Touch system that includes the 10" display, EIS, remote comm radio, remote ADS-B In/Out transponder, and a backup battery. That will give you the maximum situational awareness for VFR day and night operations with a minimum of moving parts to whine about your unusual attitudes. Anything else will be a compromise away from that benchmark but at least you have something to measure it against.
 
You can fly around under the hood with a CFII or safety pilot and log simulated instrument in it. Logging approaches, it sounds like no. I would be surprised if a DPE would do an instrument ride in a VFR only airplane. Every applicant I have sent to instrument checkrides has needed to show the DPE that the airplane is qualified, including the required IFR inspections and equipment. Yes it is done in VFR conditions, but they have always wanted to know the airplane is IFR legal. I have never tried to send a non IFR plane on an Instrument ride, so don't know what would happen if it was not legal but I suspect they may not do the ride.
 
SethV said:
You can fly around under the hood with a CFII or safety pilot and log simulated instrument in it. Logging approaches, it sounds like no. I would be surprised if a DPE would do an instrument ride in a VFR only airplane. Every applicant I have sent to instrument checkrides has needed to show the DPE that the airplane is qualified, including the required IFR inspections and equipment. Yes it is done in VFR conditions, but they have always wanted to know the airplane is IFR legal. I have never tried to send a non IFR plane on an Instrument ride, so don't know what would happen if it was not legal but I suspect they may not do the ride.
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The ACS is pretty specific on this. It doesn't have to be "IFR legal" (for example, training including the cross country may be done in aircraft not certified for flight into the clouds and I doubt a DPE would be within his rights refusing a checkride in one), but...

Consistent with 14 CFR part 61, section 61.45 (b) and (d), the aircraft must have:
• the flight instruments necessary for controlling the aircraft without outside references,
• the radio equipment required for ATC communications, and
• the ability to perform instrument approach procedures
• GPS equipment must be instrument certified and contain the current database.​
 
When I posted this, I was under the impression that a WAAS VFR GPS such as the Aera 760 would be functionally equivalent to an IFR GPS. Eg it could fly holds and approaches with similar presentation and inputs, it was just not legal because it was portable. I also assumed it could integrate with an external CDI and GS.

Given that is not possible, it does not seem there would be a cost effective path to equipping it sufficiently for true IFR training. Installing an IFR panel mount GPS is not in the cards.

That said, there would be goodness in getting some hood time practicing on the AHI with a safety pilot, and perhaps trying a few emergency approaches with a CFII using the plates on the VFR GPS.

Thanks to all for the insights.
 
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