IFR questions

Supereri

Supereri

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Messages
116
Display Name
Display name:
Supereri
Let me start by saying I'm not IFR certified, simply a soon to be PPL that has bought his first airplane.

The airplane is a 1963 Cessna 182F with a Dynon Skyview HDX, GNC355 WAAS GPS/COM, and Dynon GPS. The airplane has no NAV radio. Can this aircraft be flown IFR legally with a WAAS GPS as the only source? How limiting will it be not to have a NAV radio? Should I go through the considerable cost to add a NAV radio? Maybe switch out the GNC for a GTN or slip in an SL30?
 
You're definitely on the light side in terms of equipment, but you're perfectly legal. Obviously you'll only be able to fly RNAV (GPS) approaches - how limiting that will be depends on your area or where you intend to fly. In my area, all the airports have RNAV approaches, but the older NAV ones (VOR, ILS) let you get a little lower. I'm sure that will change over time. I'd be more concerned with only having one COM radio. It's workable, but I'd at least keep a hand-held as a spare. As time goes on, I suspect the lack of a NAV radio will become even less of an issue. If mine broke today, I wouldn't rush to get it fixed.

C.
 
camorton said:
You're definitely on the light side in terms of equipment, but you're perfectly legal. Obviously you'll only be able to fly RNAV (GPS) approaches - how limiting that will be depends on your area or where you intend to fly. In my area, all the airports have RNAV approaches, but the older NAV ones (VOR, ILS) let you get a little lower. I'm sure that will change over time. I'd be more concerned with only having one COM radio. It's workable, but I'd at least keep a hand-held as a spare. As time goes on, I suspect the lack of a NAV radio will become even less of an issue. If mine broke today, I wouldn't rush to get it fixed.

C.
Click to expand...

My bad, it has 2 com radios. It has a Dynon radio and the GNC355 along with 2 GPS, the built in Dynon GPS and the GNC355 WAAS GPS. The Dynon GPS isn't IFR certified, but in case of need....
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0870.JPEG
    IMG_0870.JPEG
    113.9 KB · Views: 101
Wow, that panel is quite a change from my 'E' model (which would have been identical to your 'F')! Anyway, with the second com you're in much better shape.

Only wrinkle now is training for the instrument check ride. You need to do three different types of approaches, and I believe the 355 will only do two of them. I think you can do a PAR approach for the third if one is available in your area. Talk to your CFII. The FAA has updated the policy recently to allow for this situation - airplanes with GPS only nav.

C.
 
You’re in trouble if you encounter a GPS outage. (More common than you’d believe). In the West we find ourselves on airways more than those East seem to, and a VOR is helpful.

I will also say, based on your panel pic, I would not fly it IMC without a backup DG and AH (maybe more?). Maybe the redundancy is built in somehow but I wouldn’t want to be a blown-fuse away from disaster.
 
camorton said:
. The FAA has updated the policy recently to allow for this situation - airplanes with GPS only nav.
Click to expand...
That's the way I remember it too. I believe I see a small backup ai hiding behind the yoke. That panel should be legal for IFR, and will get you through a checkride. Personally I wouldn't fly "hard" ifr without a nav radio, but something like this would be fine for those mvfr days.
 
Last edited:
Rgbeard said:
You’re in trouble if you encounter a GPS outage. (More common than you’d believe). In the West we find ourselves on airways more than those East seem to, and a VOR is helpful.

I will also say, based on your panel pic, I would not fly it IMC without a backup DG and AH (maybe more?). Maybe the redundancy is built in somehow but I wouldn’t want to be a blown-fuse away from disaster.
Click to expand...

Hard to see on the left, but there's a Dynon EFIS-D10A lurking over there with a battery backup and built in ADAHRS.
 
i can't personally imagine flying IFR without a nav radio. i don't think it's crazy dangerous or something, but seems to me to be basic equipment. i'm constantly routed to airways, maybe your area is different

i have had a GPS fail several times for varying reasons on different aircraft. i don't think it's uncommon enough to rely solely on it
 
It just depends on how you are going to fly IFR. As long as you always have a backup plan that equipment is fine, with the caveat that it meet the minimum IFR requirements.
Backup Plan might be if GPS fails, turn 180, climb to 8000 and fly to VFR conditions. +1 on GPS outages occurring, they do happen with some frequency out west.
if you just need to shoot an approach through a layer to get where you going, then it is no problem.
Or just climb through a layer to depart, then no problem.
I think the reality is in most areas, this is how 182's are flown in IMC, they really aren't a Hard IFR airplane.
if it is IFR for 300 miles in every direction, you probably want some additional backup options.

Brian
 
Perfectly legal for IFR, but having a Nav radio would be nice. There are options available that won’t break the bank.
 
Supereri said:
What about the VAL Nav 2000? Since I already have 2 comms, this seems like just the ticket for only $1500.
https://www.valavionics.com/nav-2000.html
Click to expand...
That would work too. The VAL INS429 has the benefit of a simpler install (just power, ground and audio) as well as a couple of extra features. Being its own indicator also gives you redundancy in case the Dynon screen fails. The price difference could come out even given the labor savings on the quicker install.
 
I struggled with this when I built the panel in my RV-14. I ended up with a GTN 650 Xi and a second comm radio. If I had it to do over, I may have skipped the VHF nav radio and antenna. The nav radio gives me two things: (1) IFR navigation in a GPS outage and (2) ability to accept an ILS approach in the situation where ATC is more accommodating to ILS arrivals than GPS-only. In the places I fly to with an ILS, I couldn’t find an ILS with better minimums than the LPV allowed. Where they differ, it’s usually not by a lot. (250 vs. 200 feet, for example.)

If you can get your rating in the plane as configured, I would put the money into avgas and maintenance rather than adding a VHF nav radio. Decide later if you want to add the radio, when you can make your own informed decision rather than deferring to the peanut gallery here.
 
Rgbeard said:
Don't forget the Clock! :)
Click to expand...
The #1 reason to go all-glass is so you don’t have to set your 8-day wind-up clock during the climb because you forgot to wind and set it before cranking the engine.

(The #2 reason is so you don’t have to set your DG during the takeoff run.)
 
iamtheari said:
I struggled with this when I built the panel in my RV-14. I ended up with a GTN 650 Xi and a second comm radio. If I had it to do over, I may have skipped the VHF nav radio and antenna. The nav radio gives me two things: (1) IFR navigation in a GPS outage and (2) ability to accept an ILS approach in the situation where ATC is more accommodating to ILS arrivals than GPS-only. In the places I fly to with an ILS, I couldn’t find an ILS with better minimums than the LPV allowed. Where they differ, it’s usually not by a lot. (250 vs. 200 feet, for example.)

If you can get your rating in the plane as configured, I would put the money into avgas and maintenance rather than adding a VHF nav radio. Decide later if you want to add the radio, when you can make your own informed decision rather than deferring to the peanut gallery here.
Click to expand...
Before you go that route, I'd be checking www.gpsjam.org (shamelessly stolen from the other thread https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/gps-interference-map.139068/ ) for a few weeks to see if spots show up near where you regularly fly.
 
Last edited:
iamtheari said:
The #1 reason to go all-glass is so you don’t have to set your 8-day wind-up clock during the climb because you forgot to wind and set it before cranking the engine.

(The #2 reason is so you don’t have to set your DG during the takeoff run.)
Click to expand...

And reset it every so often. ESPECIALLY important in the old days before shooting an NDB approach. Guess how I learned THAT lesson. :D
 
Pinecone said:
And reset it every so often. ESPECIALLY important in the old days before shooting an NDB approach. Guess how I learned THAT lesson. :D
Click to expand...
Or when you’re getting vectors.

“Bugsmasher 23 bravo, say winds.”
“Uh, yeah, it’s super windy up here but I think they’re getting better.” *reset DG*
 
iamtheari said:
Or when you’re getting vectors.

“Bugsmasher 23 bravo, say winds.”
“Uh, yeah, it’s super windy up here but I think they’re getting better.” *reset DG*
Click to expand...
So lying to ATC really is OK! ;)
 
I'm old school and sorta cringe looking at that panel....agree with rbgeard....one blown fuse away from disaster...

iamtheari said:
.....

If you can get your rating in the plane as configured, I would put the money into avgas and maintenance rather than adding a VHF nav radio. Decide later if you want to add the radio, when you can make your own informed decision rather than deferring to the peanut gallery here.
Click to expand...

but I also sort of want to agree with iamtheri. I'm not fully up to speed on the requirements with glass....but assuming it's enough to be legal, then it's enough for training and probably enough for those MVFR and sorta soft IFR days...so save the money and get the rating!

that said...if I'm the examiner...at the most in opportune moment when you are sweating and task saturated, you are one "simulated blown fuse" away from the statement..."you just lost you glass, what do you do now?"

so I say save the money for now, start the training, and chew on the issue for a while...no need for rash spending.
 
Palmpilot said:
So lying to ATC really is OK! ;)
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say that. But it's probably better to lie to ATC than to believe everything you read on the internet.
 
Brad W said:
I'm old school and sorta cringe looking at that panel....agree with rbgeard....one blown fuse away from disaster...
Click to expand...

I don't know how this EFIS is setup, but the ones I've used have three separate power inputs and a battery backup. Now you could connect it with just one power input so you never know.
 
IMHO I would look at this as having only 1 GPS really. To your question: I would swap out your second Com for a Nav/Com that will talk to your display to give you the ability to do the ILS as well as VOR navigation.

I would have guessed that you need a back up AHRS and DG or HSI. But I guess I would have been mistaken.
 
camorton said:
Only wrinkle now is training for the instrument check ride. You need to do three different types of approaches, and I believe the 355 will only do two of them. I think you can do a PAR approach for the third if one is available in your area. Talk to your CFII. The FAA has updated the policy recently to allow for this situation - airplanes with GPS only nav.C.
Click to expand...

This would be my question.

The panel should be good for IFR, no problem.

But can you do the checkride with only GPS, even WAAS GPS? If so, I would like to know what 3 GPS approach types would qualify. I doubt a PAR would work because it does not involve a "navigation system".

This question was discussed last year: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/possible-to-get-ir-with-gps-only.133229/

Any changes?
 
noahfong said:
This would be my question.

The panel should be good for IFR, no problem.

But can you do the checkride with only GPS, even WAAS GPS? If so, I would like to know what 3 GPS approach types would qualify. I doubt a PAR would work because it does not involve a "navigation system".

This question was discussed last year: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/possible-to-get-ir-with-gps-only.133229/

Any changes?
Click to expand...
@Ryan F. , ya around? You gave the definitive answers in that thread. Have things changed?
 
noahfong said:
This would be my question.

The panel should be good for IFR, no problem.

But can you do the checkride with only GPS, even WAAS GPS? If so, I would like to know what 3 GPS approach types would qualify. I doubt a PAR would work because it does not involve a "navigation system".

This question was discussed last year: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/possible-to-get-ir-with-gps-only.133229/

Any changes?
Click to expand...

You would need a second aircraft (IFR capable to include ground-based navigation for approaches) to complete the IRA practical test.
 
WDD said:
I would have guessed that you need a back up AHRS and DG or HSI. But I guess I would have been mistaken.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure backup instrumentation is required too. But I do think that panel has a backup to the left. IMG_0870.JPEG
 
Without a VOR/Localizer receiver, you can fly IFR legally, but you can't complete the ACS requirements with the aircraft. You will need to do two non precision approaches, one of which may be based on GPS, the other must be based on a conventional Navaid such as VOR, Localizer, or NDB.
 
I would also ask the opinion of your avionics shop on which unit will integrate well with your Dynon
 
Are there any NDB approaches left?

I think I have done maybe 3 in my life.

One for real on a family trip. Sort of. Was above the clouds for half of it, then it was VFR for the rest. :D

One to practice for my CFII and one on the checkride.
 
Actually it is hard to find a VOR approach in some areas. The nearest one in the Charlotte, NC area is at Florence, 86 NM away. There is one at KHKY, but the VOR is not in service. That is quite a distance round trip just to practice a VOR approach procedure or for a practical test. There are still 223 NDB approaches in the NAS inventory and 1312 VOR procedures, but with so many VOR out of service or being discontinued, it is getting difficult to find them available for practice.

Edit: I checked NC, there are 22 VOR approaches, but 11 of them are not available due to the VOR being NOTAM out of service.
 
Last edited:
If you have DME there's a VOR/DME at GSO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top