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IFR out of airports with no IAP
- Thread starter midlifeflyer
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Fixed wing or helicopter for that?
k9medic
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ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
The Agusta 109E is a helicopter.
Ventucky Red
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Jon
This little gem just hit my inbox.... does this help?
PaulMillner
Line Up and Wait
I've had ATC try to kill me at least four times in my 6,000 hours by vectoring me into terrain or towers... I don't like that!I'm looking for pilots who file IFR out of airports with no instrument approaches.
It's for a possible article on the subject for IFR Magazine and I'm looking for real-world examples. Feel free to message me privately. If you answer here, I'll probably end up contacting you for details
Edit: I'd better be more specific.
In marginal VFR or IMC, how do you maintain terrain and obstacle clearance on departure?
Paul
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Example? I remember you talking about an incident out of KHND once. What’s another one? One out of an airport without published DP’s, the subject of this thread.
Echoing @luvflyin. What was the situation? Remember that a direction “upon entering controlled airspace,” is not a vector. The pilot retains terrain and obstruction responsibility until “radar contact”.
So people know, i have the material I need and the article is almost finished. Thanks for the help and the pointers.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
We want’ royalties
You'd be in a long line waiting. The example flight for the article is my first IFR solo flight. Fortunately(?) it still has no approaches so I was able to get some current information. The airport is not even on the LIFR enroute chart (no approaches and <3000' runway).We want’ royalties
Ventucky Red
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Jon
I subscribe to IFR... is this going to hit anytime soon?
Probably not until summer. I have one in the February issue and another in the queue for April, so this one might be a while.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
You were asking questions a year or so about an airport in I think it was Minnesota. You said it was about an article you were going to write. Did that get done?
Dunno.I usually ask these kinds of questions because I want to use it as an example. Sometimes I use them, sometimes not.
Ventucky Red
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Jon
Thanks and appreciate your contributions... it is a great little rag "awl yawl" push out each month.
tbroadhurst
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Tom b
I have been under the assumption that you cannot enter I F R conditions with out a clearance to do so , i have left many airports over the years with no instrument procedure and I have always had to file to a intersection or fix and my flight plan started there if I could not get to that start point VFR it was a no go , if the airport you are leaving has radar coverage at let’s say 2000 feet AGL and it’s VFR to 2000 feet you might get them to pick you up but I never could , another thought is who would take off into the clouds with out a clearance or departure procedure not me , what if there is another airport close by or a private strip and someone there does the same thing and I don’t leave a aircraft IFR that does not have a approach to get back in
There you would be wrong. You have to have a clearance to be in conditions less than VFR within controlled airspace. In uncontrolled airspace a clearance is not only not necessary, it's unavailable.
If you read through this thread (see my earlier post). It is quite legal to depart in instrument conditions in to uncontrolled airspace. A clearance is not required nor does the airport need an approach. It is on you to verify you have terrain clearance.
Of course, there's precious little uncontrolled airspace out there, and practically none is available for en route use. So you'd best have a plan for what you intend to do. If it's not VMC where you could pick up a clearance in the air, you'd best have an IFR clearance for the overhanging controlled airspace before you depart. The FAA has strung up at least one pilot for trying to scud run out of a field in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance and called it reckless.
I would call ZTL on the ground and get a clearance of CLEARED DIRECT CJR UPON ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE FLY HEADING 230 THEN AS FILED...
I have no approach into my grass strip but I don't need no stinking departure procedure. I'll not hit anything on a straight out departure.
Coming in, if I can't get down from the MVA in visual conditions, then I'll fly the approach into one of the adjacent airports. For my own planning purposes, I compute TWO alternates. If I was going into let's say SVH or 14A, I'd have to pick a pretty far away alternate (HKY or RUQ). While I probably could legally file SVH or 14A as my legal alternate into NC26, I'd still like the option of getting to HKY, RUQ, or CLT with the fuel on board.
tbroadhurst
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Tom b
We all have our thought# on this I guess , i would never do that , if your in a area where no one is close for 50 miles maybe but if someone else does the same thing it could get interesting not sure where you live , maybe there’s lots of room there for this but flying into the clouds with out a clearance is not for me I think uncontrolled airspace would be the worst place to fly with no clearance or radar there might be other people doing the same thing I have come close in controlled airspace and radar coverage years ago I knew guys that would file to a intersection and Say they were VFR and were not not for me
Practically speaking, you are correct that you need a clearance, for exactly the reason you mentioned - other traffic. But that still does not mean you need to file from an intersection. You can file from the ground.It’s done every day. It was SOP where I got my instrument training (no IAPs) and it still takes place today. Your decision to not depart unless it’s VFR is a personal minimum, not a requirement.
When you pick up your clearance at a nontowered airport where Class E begins at 700 AGL, you are obtaining your clearance and departing IFR in uncontrolled airspace. When you return to the airport by flying ILS or LPV to 200 AGL, those last 700’ are in uncontrolled airspace.
Aside from the lack of an instrument approach, this is no different.
BTW, the airport where I did this is just under a Class C shelf. And (I hope) no one is suggesting doing it without a clearance.
tbroadhurst
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Tom b
Your right you can do that I fly out of KHMT most of the winter months , non towered a lot of overcast days but VFR so you get people in the pattern and you have a void time it gets interesting but you can call ATC from the run up area so that works Southern California is a busy area lots of training flights , no radar till about 1500 agl at Khmt , anyway I do enjoy these posts Tom
There is no clearance in uncontrolled airspace and no traffic separation is provided.
For practical matters, since you won't remain in uncontrolled airspace long and you will have a clearance for controlled airspace above, that SHOULD discourage any other uncontrolled IFR traffic.
I never really thought of it that way. Mind blown. I fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace anytime I have to do a loggable approach into home.
Of course the clearance you receive doesn't apply until "upon entering controlled airspace." That doesn't mean you don't/can't receive it on the ground, which is what @tbroadhurst seemed to be saying.
For practical matters, except for departure and arrival, there is no uncontrolled IFR in the Lower 48.
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There's a Part 135 rule that prohibits IFR in uncontrolled airspace.
135.215 (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR outside of controlled airspace or at any airport that does not have an approved standard instrument approach procedure.
The exceptions all involve FAA approval - OpSepcs and the like. But they illustrate the point:(c) A person may operate an aircraft under IFR outside of controlled airspace if the certificate holder has been approved for the operations and that operation is necessary to -
(1) Conduct an instrument approach to an airport for which there is in use a current approved standard or special instrument approach procedure; or
(2) Climb into controlled airspace during an approved missed approach procedure; or
(3) Make an IFR departure from an airport having an approved instrument approach procedure.
kaiser
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The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
They separate you from participating traffic - well they block the airspace, so not exactly the same as separation. But if it's G for the first 700', OVC007 and someone's flying around VFR at 600' perfectly legal, then you are on your own.
It's an old thread, but I think I read something that reflects what I do. Most of the time I get clearance & release on the ground if I'm anticipating needing to fly IFR. For obstacle clearance, I use whatever is available to me. Once I flew out of 1T8 (I think it's 1TT8 now), and I self-surveyed the area by using Google Earth to identify potential high spots and drove around to double check. Even doing that, my mins are the obstacle has to be clear of clouds - so if it was socked in, I wouldn't launch.
Someone could be flying around IFR at 600 perfectly legal. There's no separation in uncontrolled airspace, just in the overlying controlled airspace which admittedly is probably a pretty sure bet.
I assume you mean with no clearance for the overlying Class E, D, C, or B. Where are they "flying around"?
I'm sticking with, there is no practical uncontrolled enroute IFR in the lower 48.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ya still gotta comply with 91.177 (a) (2) and 91.179 (b). So you could do 1000 eastbound.
Yep. And don't forget those obstacles within 4nm.
Bump. For those who subscribe, the article is expected to be in the June IFR. No idea if it will be one of the free offerings on the website.
Brad Z
Final Approach
Funny, I was listening to recent Opposing Bases podcast episode and patron Mike Kilo brought up this very topic...I though it sounded familiar.
Don't listen to that guy. Mike Kilo rarely knows what he's talking about
Asking them was part of the research into current examples but with their feedback backup, RH and AG didn't get around to it until after the article was completed.
mark.staggs
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ha! I thought that topic sounded familiar when I listened to that episode recently!Don't listen to that guy. Mike Kilo rarely knows what he's talking about
Asking them was part of the research into current examples but with their feedback backup, RH and AG didn't get around to it until after the article was completed.
Great topic!
If you listened to the earlier discussion on Aviation NewsTalk, you know where the idea came from.
Pinecone
En-Route
I had my first time last year.
Going into Sarasota, they wanted me to do the visual, but I couldn't pick out the runway, so I got vectors to the ILS. But he turned me away from the runway without a climb. A bit later he tells me to turn right IMMEDIATELY. I declined as I was passing the tower, that I had seen, to the left and a right turn would have put me into the tower. He insisted I turn right and I told him unable due to the tower. He was much nicer after he realized what he had almost done.
Steamflyer
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Steamflyer
It is not uncommon to get a clearance that ask "can you maintain your own obstacle and terrain clearance to xxxx feet?" I assume but don't know the altitude is their MVA in the sector where the strip without approaches is located.
How you do it is up to you - if it's socked in to the ground, that's not a time to figure it out. Have filed from and departed from small private strips IFR many times. Ideally, you depart VFR and pick up in the air, but sometimes if you know the terrain and are comfortable, you can call ATC on the phone and get a clearance with a void time. Note that all these fields were charted (and known to the Center after a bit of looking up). An uncharted strip might have to use a LAT/LONG as the origin, don't know.
At a local airport we always get the "upon reaching controlled airspace fly heading xxx and call approach on 1pq.yz"
How you do it is up to you - if it's socked in to the ground, that's not a time to figure it out. Have filed from and departed from small private strips IFR many times. Ideally, you depart VFR and pick up in the air, but sometimes if you know the terrain and are comfortable, you can call ATC on the phone and get a clearance with a void time. Note that all these fields were charted (and known to the Center after a bit of looking up). An uncharted strip might have to use a LAT/LONG as the origin, don't know.
At a local airport we always get the "upon reaching controlled airspace fly heading xxx and call approach on 1pq.yz"
If you call from the ground, they might not ask it. Technically, the question only applies to an airborne VFR aircraft requesting the clearance in the air, but controllers have been known to expand it.
Steamflyer
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Steamflyer
I think you are absolutely right, but pretty sure I've gotten it on the initial clearance sometimes. Certainly had it yesterday when picked up a pre-filed IFR flight in the air.
