IFR in C152 Approach Speeds

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fly4usa

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fly4usa
I just joined a flight club as a flight instructor (CFI-II-ME) that has an IFR certified WAAS GPS, dual G5's, Cessna 152.

Since 85 kts if max flap speed I suppose we could fly approach at 75 kts and half flaps. I like to keep some power on during approach.

About me... I am a 10,000 hr ATP. I have not instructed in decades and getting back into instructing. I have +1000 hours dual given, Pvt to Multi Instrument.
 
Of course, one way to keep power on is to use more than half flaps. Did you review the POH? I don't fly the 152 very often, but it seems 60-70 KIAS might be more appropriate on final with flaps.

I don't have your hours, but I do have more than 3300 hours of dual instruction, mostly in Cessna 150s and 172s.
 
Teach it how you would fly it in actual IMC. If it were me, I probably wouldn’t even use flaps at all on the approach given the nature of that airplane and just milk it in once I broke out. If it was down to mins, I’d probably just use 10deg or 20deg and accept the slower approach speed for what it is.
 
When I was instructing in a brand new 1978 C-152, the thing I appreciated most was the propeller was pitched such that I could keep cruise power in during instrument approaches and keep my speed up with all the other aircraft into some busy airports.

The transition to visual at DH would be to reduce power and put in full flaps at the white arc. We usually flew the missed, anyway, so there was no need to do much other than climb and comply...
 
I'm with those who would forego flaps on an instrument approach in a 152. It's slow enough even at full cruise speed to slow and land on any runway with an instrument approach in plenty of time.

(Then again, I only use approach flaps in about a handful of the 30 or so singles I've flown anyway).

Question: are there other instructor or members in the club who can discuss their SOP with you? Some of these things, especially instrument approach technique, can be flight school or club specific. I recall being asked to slow down on an instrument approach in a 172 because the flight school Cherokee in front of me flew them at 80.
 
For a light fixed-gear single there is probably little value in flying an IFR approach with flaps, as such aircraft can be easily slowed down prior to landing, and have very short landing rolls to boot. Plus ATC may not be happy with excessively slow approach speeds in a real IFR environment.

I fly my Grumman AA-5 at 90 kt sans flaps for IFR approaches, from the IAF onward. This speed is the one for which I know all the "numbers." Upon breaking out, I can slow up, apply full flaps, and land at a normal speed. If there is not sufficient time to apply flaps (not likely, but whatever) it is perfectly possible to land without flaps. I find that 90 kt is a comfortable speed to fly in the bumps while descending through clouds and perform HILPTs and procedure turns, with more than ample airspeed cushion to stay on the normal side of the power curve, and usually fast enough to keep ATC happy in a busier airport environment.
 
At busy airports, 90K is the expected minimum airspeed that fits in. For an actual landing, idle after the decision height, and land. If they ask minimum time to exit, full flaps at top of white arc, and land.

My IFR check ride, 90K, and a mile outside the marker, controller requested a slow 360 to the left to allow an airliner to pass, then vectors to the marker, and a question, Landing, or go around? DPE said Missed, the controller requested maintain 120K, or another circle. DPE said "Your call, if you blow it, you fail" I affirmed 120K, advanced the throttle, and flew the approach and missed.

The facility where you are instructions may have standard practices, but at any larger airport, the controllers need you to keep the pattern moving.

Flying actual cross countries in Cessna 172's, real instrument conditions, I have been requested to keep my speed as high as I can, for traffic behind me, and descended to visual conditions before reducing from cruise speed, then idle power, and continued as the plane slowed. Airline airports all have very long runways, and once the runway is made, flaps as you wish for the deceleration.
 
I have told this story before, but when my flying club bought the 152, we ferried it from another state, so the local controllers were not familiar with the tail number. When I flew the first ILS into the big airport, the controller asked me if I could maintain speed on the approach and I replied "affirmative." He then cleared me as "Citation 24[XXX], cleared ILS 31 Left." I didn't bother to correct him and giggled all the way until I broke off the approach and went visual to the smaller airport.
 
fly4usa said:
I have not instructed in decades and getting back into instructing. I have +1000 hours dual given, Pvt to Multi Instrument.
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I'd take a few rides with your club's other CFI's and get the feel for how things are taught in Cessna's these days, etc.
 
IK04 said:
I have told this story before, but when my flying club bought the 152, we ferried it from another state, so the local controllers were not familiar with the tail number. When I flew the first ILS into the big airport, the controller asked me if I could maintain speed on the approach and I replied "affirmative." He then cleared me as "Citation 24[XXX], cleared ILS 31 Left." I didn't bother to correct him and giggled all the way until I broke off the approach and went visual to the smaller airport.
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I had a new copilot in the Citation going into KFCM when it had a 3900 ft runwy(still plenty for the airplane.) it was her leg, and she decided to be fully configured and stable by the FAF, and since she was new I didn’t try to speed her up. We had a North American AT-6 doing S-turns behind us.:rolleyes:
 
fly4usa said:
I just joined a flight club as a flight instructor (CFI-II-ME) that has an IFR certified WAAS GPS, dual G5's, Cessna 152.

Since 85 kts if max flap speed I suppose we could fly approach at 75 kts and half flaps. I like to keep some power on during approach.

About me... I am a 10,000 hr ATP. I have not instructed in decades and getting back into instructing. I have +1000 hours dual given, Pvt to Multi Instrument.
Click to expand...

Great set up for IFR instruction. Based on experience, recommend simply reducing power a bit at glide slope intercept and continuing at more-or-less cruise speed until the runway. 90 kts over the ground is about 450 fpm descent for 3 degrees, not difficult. No need to land with flaps at a field with an approach - rwy likely plenty long. But easy enough to slow down if desired at the end with appropriate power and pitch inputs.
 
I recommend using flaps during instrument training.
It gives the student plenty of time to open up the textbooks and study for the written while on final approach.
 
Non Compos Mentis said:
I recommend using flaps during instrument training.
It gives the student plenty of time to open up the textbooks and study for the written while on final approach.
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Ha ha, yes there is a 12NM arc transition to an ILS/LOC approach in our area, it is 16NM from IAP to FAF, takes a long time, +10 mins to be exact. Enough to set up for approach and missed, and have a snack. 90 kts (no wheel pants) is also cruise speed. It makes it simple. Since 85kts is Vfe I don't like pushing limits just to reduce wear and tear. 90 kts is the sweet spot I already sorted out before I posted my question. I was curious. Final approach segment is same for a C172 or even C182, 90 kts. However C182 has KIAS flap extension of 140kts (10) and 95kts (40). So yes I use flaps 10 or 20 so I can keep power up. The C182 I fly has a STOL kit, droop LE, stall fence, seals) so the stall speed is ridiculously low. It basically will not fully stall unless you really get agro.

I discuss the down side of clean approach in C152... Slowing down to land.

C152 you get to mins and see runway, but just barely, depending on approach you are (for an example) on 3 deg path, 1.5 nm from TCH, 300-400 feet above THC, at 90kts clean. If this was a VFR student I would have coughed and said something long before. However this is IAP and not short feild STOL landing competition. Slowing to flap extension is the issue or trick. You can't "go down and slow down", at easily, even in a mighty C152. To lose 5kts clean in a constant descent even at idle is not instantaneous if ever depending on ROD. It is going to take some reduced ROD or level off (or slip) to bleed off speed.

1)
Obviously pull power back (w/ Carb Heat) smoothly and slowly. Note: 90kts at 450fpm descent, RPM is top of green, but recommend CH for whole approach. Note not a big fan of to the stop idle on approach, like to leave an elevated RPM.

2)
Option 1 - Momentarily at Mins, Rwy insight, reduce ROD or level off, slow below 85kts, bring in flaps in, continue descent to runway.**
Option 2 - Start round out / flare slightly higher than normal, bring flaps in below 85kts. Extend flaps in steps, not all at once, guard against asymmetric issue.
Option 3 - Land clean at slightly higher speed

** They are all viable, but reducing your descent or leveling off just below MINS (assume we are IMC with minimum visibility), you may go back into cloud (ragged ceiling base) or lose sight of runway (slant range visibility). Also not a stabilized approach. If it is VFR sure do that, and accept a slightly steeper or higher path to touchdown.

Flare in ground effect clean, you going to use more runway. This may be OK w/ long runway and target FBO at far end of Runway. However embarrassing to go off far end of 8000 ft runway in a C152. Adding flaps changes pitch trim. So clean may not be a bad option, touching down may be 6kts faster.

IMHO best "Plan A" is in-between Option 1 & 2. Say 100 feet above THC, than start reducing rate of descent or almost level, slowdown, configure flaps, establish normal landing speed, 60-65kts 30deg, and then add partial power as needed for a "normal" landing, albeit further down the runway than you might VFR. A Fwd Slip is an option but that is a different topic. Should not be necessary, but IFR does not mean not using basic VFR pilot skills. Anyway 2000-3000 feet of Rwy is enough to land a C152 from 90kts clean on an IAP. I have landed C402 and Cessna Citation on 3000 ft. BUT like the large airliner I fly you are fully configured and at landing speed by 1000 feet HAT. So you can land a C152 on 3000 ft (the min runway length for an IAP runway, most are 4000-5000 ft or longer).
 
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In my experience a C150/152 slows down pretty much immediately when needed. Even a 90 kt approach to ILS mins of 200' would leave about 2/3 of a mile to slow it down. Power to idle if needed, slow aircraft, flaps in as needed when in white arc. Nothing wrong with a bit of slip either IMHO if the runway is short, but there are no short runways with approaches as far as a C152 is concerned. These are aircraft that land and stop in 500' or so flown accordingly.

If you go off the end of an 8000' runway in a C152 you must have added a lot of power along the way. From 90 kts over the fence and NO flaps you still couldn't do it at idle. It's all about energy management.
 
fly4usa said:
I just joined a flight club as a flight instructor (CFI-II-ME) that has an IFR certified WAAS GPS, dual G5's, Cessna 152.

Since 85 kts if max flap speed I suppose we could fly approach at 75 kts and half flaps. I like to keep some power on during approach.

About me... I am a 10,000 hr ATP. I have not instructed in decades and getting back into instructing. I have +1000 hours dual given, Pvt to Multi Instrument.
Click to expand...

My approach (pun) to this is twofold and depends on the airport... busy or slow...

For busy airports I fly the approach as SteamFlyer noted, that is 1900 ~ 2000 RPM, 500 FPM, 100 Kts until 600' (personal minimum), then reduce throttle, and deploy the Cessna Land-O-Matic System as needed. Again, as SF noted, the 152 can reduce airspeed quickly once the power is pulled.

For others (ILS - RNAV), once I am established on the final, and the glideslope is centered, generally,1700 RPM will give me a 500 FPM descent @ 80 Kts.. Again, the 152 can slow up quickly and 1500 RPM at the MAP should consistently give you 65 Kts over the threshold. This seems to be workable with ATC as I haven't been asked to speed it up...
 
Ventucky Red said:
For others (ILS - RNAV), once I am established on the final, and the glideslope is centered, generally,1700 RPM will give me a 500 FPM descent @ 80 Kts.. Again, the 152 can slow up quickly
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I'm trying to imagine an ILS where slowing down a 152 for landing would present a problem.
 
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RyanB said:
Teach it how you would fly it in actual IMC. If it were me, I probably wouldn’t even use flaps at all on the approach given the nature of that airplane and just milk it in once I broke out. If it was down to mins, I’d probably just use 10deg or 20deg and accept the slower approach speed for what it is.
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:yeahthat:
Then if any potential for icing I would be back to no flaps and a higher approach speed.

Probably going to get a lot practice of "maintain maximum forward speed" unless practicing at a small airport. It actual IFR with other traffic very likely you will get that request, or vectored a lot until they have a slot to fit you in.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Palmpilot said:
When I was in my twenties, I briefly socialized with a woman who told me, "You think too much!" :rofl:
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I once went out once with a women in college who said she liked her men like her coffee. Ground up and stored in the freezer.
 
WDD said:
I once went out once with a women in college who said she liked her men like her coffee. Ground up and stored in the freezer.
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I had a client who liked his women like he liked his coffee…hot, black, and bitter.
 
The correct way to fly a 150 is full throttle until short final. I would not slow down or add any flaps in IMC. Fly that bird down to DA then when runway is made start slowing.
 
Thanks for the info. So Clean 90kts is what I am teaching. Why don't have all day. 80kt IAS approach especially with head wind is painful. 90kts translates better to other (relatively) faster planes like C172 and PA28. Not saying it is not an option to fly slower. I will have my students try it, but for now clean 90 kts (grnd speed). Trust me 90kts is plenty of time on final segment. I realize 90kts is not sacred. I will have them do 80kts 10 degrees. Then in the end let them decide. They will have more one tool in the toolbox. Also thee DPE may say do it at 80kts with 10 deg? So boycotts be prepared. Just saying 90kts clean is fine.

I suppose if weather was really low you could fly flaps 30 at 65 kts. Ha ha. Hey it may help if vis is at mins. Once you break out you are all configured and land. But for training and check ride that would be painful. Some approaches are 10 to 12 DME/miles from IF to Rwy. And OH MY if it's a busy airport with traffic, doing 65kts on 12 mile final, especially in VFR practice scenarios. Yeah... hard no.

How to land once runway is in sight, mins, go to idle. To gp down and slow down at same time clean is not easy, so reduce power to idle and/or reduce rate of ROD or momentary level off (while keeping runway in sight), than at or below 85kts, go full flap (recommend in steps in case of asymmetry), lower nose again as required and land normally, even if now using 500 or 1000 ft marker as aim point. You can lose the VASI or PAPI if now too high, but over the runway, not an issue.

Crossing the threshold, fast clean or getting it slowed and flaps 30, depends on when you broke out. Is it OK to be fast and land long? Why? IFR runways are typically 5000 feet. There is no problem landing. If you do the round out clean, and lower flaps above runway (do not balloon) it is not a big deal, or land clean.

All runways around here with IAP's are 5000-6000 feet. There are some shorter I am sure. I have my students follow FAR's and determine fuel, runway lengths, W&B, WX, NOTAMS and all info relevant to flight, every flight (per FAR's). Train like you fly and fly like you train. All that preflight stuff is not just for show and check rides, all made easier with EFB's.

There is no one way, and as suggested flying configured with flaps 10 or 20 at 80 kts is doable. For practical purposes while still being safe and legal clean works well. I find losing 5kts to drop flaps is not a big issue. However it does violate the "stabilized approach" principle where you are on speed and configured for landing that airlines teach, but then again you are doing 135kts, landing flaps, gear down until landing. In all light planes you have to slow down after you break out unless you fly at VFR final approach landing speed. It's just the fact GA planes land slow. Many GA airports have Biz Jets, Turbo props and piston twins crossing the threshold at a good clip.

One reason you don't want to level off or at least do so too aggressively once you have runway environment is in sight, is you may lose sight of runway, due to low visibility, visual slant range, craggy bases going back IMC, so fly your visual landing (all IFR IAP end in VFR landing unless you are CAT3 airline, but even then you have to taxi to the gate). In a C172 you just drop more flaps. In a C152 you do same just that you need to bleed 5kts off first.

I have similar problem with older C182K, Vfe110 MPH (104kts). You can get 10 deg down or 20 deg if you like, but you have to respect top of the white. The later model C182's moved Vfe way up. You still have to configure once visual. In the end practice different ways in VFR an settle on one or two techniques that work for you. If you plan on a circling to land that may change your technique.
 
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