IFR: how to build time?

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MacFlier

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MacFlier
I'm working on my IFR training and so far I've racked around 18 hrs of hood time and 22 hrs of PIC XC time (IFR and VFR combined).
I know I need 40 hrs total of hood time and 50 hrs of PIC XC time and my CFII confirmed that any XC under the hood counts on both categories.

My question is: what is a good balance between building time under the hood on XC flights and doing just VFR XC?
Sometimes I feel like I'm flying but the only things I see are the runway taking off and the runway landing... :) I do miss enjoying the scenery...

What do you all do?
 
MacFlier said:
I'm working on my IFR training and so far I've racked around 18 hrs of hood time and 22 hrs of PIC XC time (IFR and VFR combined).
I know I need 40 hrs total of hood time and 50 hrs of PIC XC time and my CFII confirmed that any XC under the hood counts on both categories.

My question is: what is a good balance between building time under the hood on XC flights and doing just VFR XC?
Sometimes I feel like I'm flying but the only things I see are the runway taking off and the runway landing... :) I do miss enjoying the scenery...

What do you all do?
Click to expand...

For me almost all my IFR training was in the system. I think I had maybe 15 hours of PIC XC that WASN'T under IFR/Simulated/Actual. And all 40 hours was with my CFII, with a huge chunk of it at night, which is WAY better for training under the hood.
 
EdFred said:
For me almost all my IFR training was in the system. I think I had maybe 15 hours of PIC XC that WASN'T under IFR/Simulated/Actual. And all 40 hours was with my CFII, with a huge chunk of it at night, which is WAY better for training under the hood.
Click to expand...
You just reminded me to add some night flying to the XCs under the hood!
 
I’d recommend more tIme without an instructor. I think time ACTING as PIC is way better than time LOGGING PIC. Especially cross country time.
 
You can knock off much of the XC time acting as safety pilot for someone else who is in a similar position. Combining hood time with XC time is a good way to do it quickly but the checkride is pretty task-intensive, something you don't particularly get droning through the sky to some distance destination. It's a good idea to get a good balance that will save you some bucks but provides value to your rating. I did most all of my hood time with an instructor as I didn't need too much XC time.
 
MacFlier said:
I'm working on my IFR training and so far I've racked around 18 hrs of hood time and 22 hrs of PIC XC time (IFR and VFR combined).
I know I need 40 hrs total of hood time and 50 hrs of PIC XC time and my CFII confirmed that any XC under the hood counts on both categories.

My question is: what is a good balance between building time under the hood on XC flights and doing just VFR XC?
Sometimes I feel like I'm flying but the only things I see are the runway taking off and the runway landing... :) I do miss enjoying the scenery...

What do you all do?
Click to expand...

So, you just need to do some hood-time XC, and you're worried about seeing scenery?

Nut-up, buttercup. Grab the hood, grab the instructor and go fly. It'll be done in due time, and you'll only need to worry about proficiency after that.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’d recommend more tIme without an instructor. I think time ACTING as PIC is way better than time LOGGING PIC. Especially cross country time.
Click to expand...

My instructor told me he wasn't in the plane once I could hold heading/altitude/fly approaches He wouldn't help with charts, or frequencies, transmissions, nothing. So for all intents and purposes I was acting as PIC even though technically I wasn't. He was there in case things got out of hand - which they didn't - but he said, you're going to be flying by yourself in IMC, so you're going to fly "by yourself" in IMC.
 
EdFred said:
My instructor told me he wasn't in the plane once I could hold heading/altitude/fly approaches He wouldn't help with charts, or frequencies, transmissions, nothing. So for all intents and purposes I was acting as PIC even though technically I wasn't. He was there in case things got out of hand - which they didn't - but he said, you're going to be flying by yourself in IMC, so you're going to fly "by yourself" in IMC.
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The fact that “he was there in case things got out of hand” defeats the purpose of acting PIC IMO.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The fact that “he was there in case things got out of hand” defeats the purpose of acting PIC IMO.
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Like I said, they never did. I'm talking out of hand like SEVERE SD, or something where death is imminent. Missing a fix, or a freq change or whatever he never intervened. But it sounds like you're advocating I should have went flying IMC solo, illegal, because that's being a REAL PIC. Flying VFR XC is ho-hum, and not even on the same plane as IFR/IMC XC.

Even a safety pilot defeats the purpose since they are their to save your ass if things go wonky. So, how do you build IFR PIC time with no instructor and no safety pilot?
 
MauleSkinner said:
The fact that “he was there in case things got out of hand” defeats the purpose of acting PIC IMO.
Click to expand...

When you're training for your instrument rating, you're not allowed to grab a hood, or find actual, and go fly solo. I think that's a good thing.

But, I'm sure you're already aware of this?

Are you proposing sweeping changes on how PIC time is logged for instrument students?
 
EdFred said:
Like I said, they never did. I'm talking out of hand like SEVERE SD, or something where death is imminent. Missing a fix, or a freq change or whatever he never intervened. But it sounds like you're advocating I should have went flying IMC solo, illegal, because that's being a REAL PIC. Flying VFR XC is ho-hum, and not even on the same plane as IFR/IMC XC.

Even a safety pilot defeats the purpose since they are their to save your ass if things go wonky. So, how do you build IFR PIC time with no instructor and no safety pilot?
Click to expand...
I’m not suggesting it for instrument time...I’m saying that acting PIC is better than logging PIC, especially when flying cross country.
 
Rgbeard said:
When you're training for your instrument rating, you're not allowed to grab a hood, or find actual, and go fly solo. I think that's a good thing.

But, I'm sure you're already aware of this?

Are you proposing sweeping changes on how PIC time is logged for instrument students?
Click to expand...
No.
 
You have 28h XC to go and 22h simulated. Get comfortable with your procedures(simulator or even computer helps here). And your attitude flying under the hood. After that find a safety pilot(ideally IFR rated or an IFR student) and take different 50nm+ XC trips with multiple approaches(and a TnG) at each destination. You do not have to be under the hood all of the time on these. Use FF as much as possible(involving approach controllers or at least tower) with practice approaches to different destinations. Every few trips go back to CFII for critique/questions.

Also, since you need more XC than "hood", go some places. Maybe at the end of training if there is still discrepancy.

And jump on any chance to go actual IMC with a CFII
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not suggesting it for instrument time...I’m saying that acting PIC is better than logging PIC, especially when flying cross country.
Click to expand...

I disagree. VFR XC is WAAAAAAAAAY less demanding than simulated PIC IFR XC.
 
I would recommend actually doing something fun with the cert you got now. Do some VFR XC trips to get breakfast or sight see or just enjoy flying to break up all the instrument training. Mix in some with a safety pilot as others have mentioned to still progress, but enjoy yourself.

When I first started flying all of my trips were at least 50+ nm away to build the time. Then life got in the way and I'm just now starting my instrument training with way over 100 hours PIC XC. It's nice to not have to worry about all the time building, but also wish I would already have my rating by now. Oh well!
 
MauleSkinner said:
You need to quit reading stuff into my posts that isn’t there.
Click to expand...

Am I wrong in reading that you are saying VFR PIC is more valuable in prep for the IR than simulated IFR PIC? Because that's how it's coming across.
 
Meh, who cares.

I’d be more concerned with IMC time and ideally night IMC time.

Flying straight and level doesn’t tell me too much, flying approaches to the missed, circles to a missed, holds, radials, STARS, SIDs in IMC, or without a REAL reference to a horizon, ideally without a moving map GPS, that’s what I’d be shooting for.

Also don’t discount simulators, especially for IFR work.
 
MacFlier said:
I'm working on my IFR training and so far I've racked around 18 hrs of hood time and 22 hrs of PIC XC time (IFR and VFR combined).
I know I need 40 hrs total of hood time and 50 hrs of PIC XC time and my CFII confirmed that any XC under the hood counts on both categories.

My question is: what is a good balance between building time under the hood on XC flights and doing just VFR XC?
Sometimes I feel like I'm flying but the only things I see are the runway taking off and the runway landing... :) I do miss enjoying the scenery...

What do you all do?
Click to expand...

Where are you located? If you're anywhere near me (north central Iowa) I'd be happy to be your safety pilot. I wouldn't even charge you. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yes, you are wrong.
Click to expand...

So what are you saying when you say that VFR XC PIC is "way" better than IFR Simulated XC PIC?
(since the simulated PIC is *only* logging, and this thread is in reference to getting the IR)
 
EdFred said:
So what are you saying when you say that VFR XC PIC is "way" better than IFR Simulated XC PIC?
(since the simulated PIC is *only* logging)
Click to expand...
I’m saying that acting PIC has benefits that can’t be gained by simply logging PIC, and that I suggest more acting as PIC to meet the time requirements.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m saying that acting PIC has benefits that can’t be gained by simply logging PIC, and that I suggest more acting as PIC to meet the time requirements.
Click to expand...

I think the error in your suggestion is that it's "simply logging." Maybe my CFII did things different than most, but it was not "simply logging" in my case. And I say that looking back at it as an instructor.

What was I not gaining, by doing every single thing that I would do as PIC once I was capable of acting as PIC minus the legal aspect since I didn't have the rating - even though I always filed under my name, and accepted the clearance?
 
EdFred said:
I think the error in your suggestion is that it's "simply logging." Maybe my CFII did things different than most, but it was not "simply logging" in my case. And I say that looking back at it as an instructor.

What was I not gaining, by doing every single thing that I would do as PIC once I was capable of acting as PIC minus the legal aspect since I didn't have the rating - even though I always filed under my name, and accepted the clearance?
Click to expand...
Obviously I have never given you a checkride. Evidently you’re not representative of the applicants I see.
 
Hmmmmmm. What's wrong with spending the maximum time under the hood or in actual honing those instrument skills? I think I spent every available minute in actual or simulated IMC while filed IFR with an instructor. We took trips to some interesting places with sometimes interesting approaches. Finding a good airport diner was a plus when choosing training trips. If it had a goofy approach, like a dive-bomb NDB, or an ILS with an unusual course reversal charted, that was a bonus just to keep it fun. Actual IFR is the best as it also gives you the opportunity to learn something about managing in-flight weather decision making. We did some real life missed approaches while filed actual, which was an eye opener and good practical experience. If you want to use your rating, you will want as much training an actual experience you can get. Training is a good time to challenge yourself and gain confidence along with mastery, and not just go through the motions. I've met too many IR pilots that are afraid to use their rating.
 
dreyna14 said:
You can knock off much of the XC time acting as safety pilot for someone else who is in a similar position. Combining hood time with XC time is a good way to do it quickly but the checkride is pretty task-intensive, something you don't particularly get droning through the sky to some distance destination. It's a good idea to get a good balance that will save you some bucks but provides value to your rating. I did most all of my hood time with an instructor as I didn't need too much XC time.
Click to expand...

Only one pilot is going to get the XC time and it is not usually the safety pilot. Mickey-mouse way to built time anyway, IMO, logging PIC as safety but to each their own.
 
alfadog said:
Only one pilot is going to get the XC time and it is not usually the safety pilot. Mickey-mouse way to built time anyway, IMO, logging PIC as safety but to each their own.
Click to expand...


I’d have to disagree with you on the above.
 
Right after I got my instrument (I was maybe 21-22), my favorite Saturday night activity in IMC was to go up and do approaches to various Chicago area airports (including MDW) with 737s on my ass. Good times.
 
lancie00 said:
Where are you located? If you're anywhere near me (north central Iowa) I'd be happy to be your safety pilot. I wouldn't even charge you. ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks! I'm in North Texas... A little far from you (or maybe a few XC flights from you)
 
genna said:
You have 28h XC to go and 22h simulated. Get comfortable with your procedures(simulator or even computer helps here). And your attitude flying under the hood. After that find a safety pilot(ideally IFR rated or an IFR student) and take different 50nm+ XC trips with multiple approaches(and a TnG) at each destination. You do not have to be under the hood all of the time on these. Use FF as much as possible(involving approach controllers or at least tower) with practice approaches to different destinations. Every few trips go back to CFII for critique/questions.

Also, since you need more XC than "hood", go some places. Maybe at the end of training if there is still discrepancy.

And jump on any chance to go actual IMC with a CFII
Click to expand...

My CFII hasn't "signed me off" yet to go do XCs with a safety pilot.

Is there any value of flying XC VFR but practicing the approaches not under the hood? (newbie question, sorry)
 
chemgeek said:
Hmmmmmm. What's wrong with spending the maximum time under the hood or in actual honing those instrument skills? I think I spent every available minute in actual or simulated IMC while filed IFR with an instructor. We took trips to some interesting places with sometimes interesting approaches. Finding a good airport diner was a plus when choosing training trips. If it had a goofy approach, like a dive-bomb NDB, or an ILS with an unusual course reversal charted, that was a bonus just to keep it fun. Actual IFR is the best as it also gives you the opportunity to learn something about managing in-flight weather decision making. We did some real life missed approaches while filed actual, which was an eye opener and good practical experience. If you want to use your rating, you will want as much training an actual experience you can get. Training is a good time to challenge yourself and gain confidence along with mastery, and not just go through the motions. I've met too many IR pilots that are afraid to use their rating.
Click to expand...

I don't there's anything wrong with it. In fact, from a financial perspective, it would make most sense to fly all the remaining XC time under the hood with a safety pilot (or CFII) instead of taking leisure VFR XCs to build time.
It's just weird that I'm going places and not seeing the trip. I'm enjoying the challenging, though. Like someone mentioned, the workload is a lot higher. After a 2hr XC my brain is dead I tell ya...
 
MacFlier said:
Is there any value of flying XC VFR but practicing the approaches not under the hood? (newbie question, sorry)
Click to expand...
I've done exactly this before, but I haven't started my instrument training yet. It helps me get used to pushing buttons and twisting knobs while keeping your situational awareness working with VFR traffic in VFR conditions. It also introduced me to the fact that flying a plane while reading/briefing a chart is going to be a challenge to learn!
 
MacFlier said:
My CFII hasn't "signed me off" yet to go do XCs with a safety pilot.

Is there any value of flying XC VFR but practicing the approaches not under the hood? (newbie question, sorry)
Click to expand...

Don’t think you need his signature to log some hood time with a safety pilot.

I’d save money and time and start practicing approaches to mins in the sim.
 
AU_James said:
I've done exactly this before, but I haven't started my instrument training yet. It helps me get used to pushing buttons and twisting knobs while keeping your situational awareness working with VFR traffic in VFR conditions. It also introduced me to the fact that flying a plane while reading/briefing a chart is going to be a challenge to learn!
Click to expand...
Yes. It's especially helpful to do this to get to know the buttonology of your panel better. On the checkride, the button pushing and knob twisting needs to be second nature. Even in the slightly less demanding environment of IFR in actual IMC, you need to know how to set up an approach on your GPS without thinking twice about it. If all you've used it for is getting from point A to point B, there is likely to be a lot more to learn about it.

It helps, of course, to get some formal training in the buttonology from your CFII before doing this on your own... IF s/he is familiar with it. (I didn't have that luxury, and have to date never flown with a CFII who knew the 480 better than I did at the time, so I had to teach myself, a slow process.)
 
MacFlier said:
My CFII hasn't "signed me off" yet to go do XCs with a safety pilot.

Is there any value of flying XC VFR but practicing the approaches not under the hood? (newbie question, sorry)
Click to expand...

There is value. You can practice your procedure. I've done a lot of approaches like that when I was training and had nobody to fly with. No distractions, you can try different things without the hood being in the way. You can do the same(almost) on simulator or X-Plane(little less realistic). Simulator also provides immediate reset and try again capability as well as failure modes and ability to pick approaches otherwise not available. No XC though.

Reality is that your test will consist of 3 approaches in your area. This(all your area approaches) is what you want to nail down. Everything else is bonus for the future IFR flying. Go places VFR with light following and ask controllers to do practice approaches. Can't log them, but you still practice procedures and practice ATC comms(doesn't matter as much for the test, but really important in real life). If you get a safety pilot, then you can hood-up for the approach and log hood time as well. Still VFR
 
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