IFR: how to build time?

I hope your not paycheck no a CFII while building that x country time.
 
genna said:
There is value. You can practice your procedure. I've done a lot of approaches like that when I was training and had nobody to fly with. No distractions, you can try different things without the hood being in the way. You can do the same(almost) on simulator or X-Plane(little less realistic). Simulator also provides immediate reset and try again capability as well as failure modes and ability to pick approaches otherwise not available. No XC though.

Reality is that your test will consist of 3 approaches in your area. This(all your area approaches) is what you want to nail down. Everything else is bonus for the future IFR flying. Go places VFR with light following and ask controllers to do practice approaches. Can't log them, but you still practice procedures and practice ATC comms(doesn't matter as much for the test, but really important in real life). If you get a safety pilot, then you can hood-up for the approach and log hood time as well. Still VFR
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Here's my tentative plan:
- Continue doing flights with the CFII (of course)
- Check with him when he thinks I'm ready for doing flights with a safety pilot. Also, I'm assuming I can be safety pilot as well as long as we don't file IFR and we are in VFR conditions, right?
- Sprinkle a VFR XC now and then just to break the training cycle and get me in "there's only one pilot here" mode :). I will try to insert some practice approaches (VFR) just to get good practice on the GNS430
 
MacFlier said:
Here's my tentative plan:
- Continue doing flights with the CFII (of course)
- Check with him when he thinks I'm ready for doing flights with a safety pilot. Also, I'm assuming I can be safety pilot as well as long as we don't file IFR and we are in VFR conditions, right?
- Sprinkle a VFR XC now and then just to break the training cycle and get me in "there's only one pilot here" mode :). I will try to insert some practice approaches (VFR) just to get good practice on the GNS430
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Pretty good plan. Safety Pilot situation is always VFR in VMC. If IMC exists, you need an instrument rated pilot and instrument flight plan. That’s no longer a safety pilot situation, but something else. You certainly can be one if you are a rated pilot with current medical. Find another IFR student and go at it. He/she needs the same practice you do.
 
Flying XC under the hood with a safety pilot is a great way to work on things! Plan your flight of 50-100 miles as you would for actual IFR then go do it. Night is a great time because it reduces the benefit of peeking, there is less traffic and it is easier to see, plus ATC is usually able to approve your requests. Use ATC as much as you can and do everything yourself just as you will on your checkride and inreal life. Shoot at least 1 approach at destination and home drone. A good technique is to for your safety pilot to give you what if scenarios enroute AND decide if you get to land or go around. Potential safety pilots be aware what comes around goes around (horrible pun even for me!).

MacFkyer, once you have your rating you should consider using the high altitude (at/above FL180) because the feds say that is always IFR (even in VMC) so you can watch the scenery and get instrument time.;)
 
EdFred said:
To me, flying VFR XC to prep for the IR is the equivalent of riding a 3-speed bicycle to prep for a motocross event.
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Perhaps, but back when I got my IR the requirements were different. We needed cross country time. Can’t remember how much, but it was a specific requirement.
 
jonvcaples said:
MacFkyer, once you have your rating you should consider using the high altitude (at/above FL180) because the feds say that is always IFR (even in VMC) so you can watch the scenery and get instrument time.;)
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Check your O2 hose...I think it’s got a kink in it.
 
Oxygen, oxygen, we don't need no stinkin' oxygen! :cool::D

Interesting little wrinkle in the FARs this. Between FL180 and FL600 we find Class A airspace where you must operate IFR (or have a written exemption for a specific flight). But then you knew that and were just yanking my chain, right?
 
Unless you have written permission you are IFR at/above FL180. Just kind of seems strange.
 
jonvcaples said:
Unless you have written permission you are IFR at/above FL180. Just kind of seems strange.
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The reason for the IFR requirement is to provide positive control for all aircraft at these altitudes. Try to imagine the chaos for ATC if you had aircraft up there flying VFR and not talking to ATC.

jonvcaples said:
MacFkyer, once you have your rating you should consider using the high altitude (at/above FL180) because the feds say that is always IFR (even in VMC) so you can watch the scenery and get instrument time
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o_O :rolleyes:
 
jonvcaples said:
Oxygen, oxygen, we don't need no stinkin' oxygen! :cool::D

Interesting little wrinkle in the FARs this. Between FL180 and FL600 we find Class A airspace where you must operate IFR (or have a written exemption for a specific flight). But then you knew that and were just yanking my chain, right?
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If you’re on an IFR clearance below 18,000 feet, does the FAA not say you’re IFR, even in VMC?

I don’t understand what distinction you’re trying to make.
 
When I needed to build XC time for requirement for IFR cert I just picked some fun places to fly. Visit my sister..head to the beach. Flew on victor routes and talked to ATC. I was able to mix in some safety pilot IFR work which was fun as well. Make it fun not a chore.
I will mention that if you are looking to advance to higher ratings and certs you should bang out the solo requirements to satisfy FAR 61.129

- 300NM with landings at 3+ points
one of which is 250NM straight from point of departure.
 
I’m sort of at the same spot, @MacFlier. My CFII wants to knock out x-c time in training. But honestly I’d rather bang out approaches and procedures rather than have him sit as an expensive safety pilot just to get the x-c time done. I think the plan you outlined above is solid.

As to the “wrinkle” mention above, I’m not following. As far as logging instrument time, how is class A in VMC any different than class E in VMC? The requirement is flying solely by reference to instruments regardless of being on an IFR flight plan or not, correct?
 
I’m not following that class A comment. You don’t log IFR time. Only IMC(real or simulated). As such, it makes no difference what class airspace you’re in. For class A someone at controls have to be IR and IFR plan and clearance are required, so can’t do vfr safety pilot. VMC or not.
 
snglecoil said:
I’m sort of at the same spot, @MacFlier. My CFII wants to knock out x-c time in training. But honestly I’d rather bang out approaches and procedures rather than have him sit as an expensive safety pilot just to get the x-c time done. I think the plan you outlined above is solid.

As to the “wrinkle” mention above, I’m not following. As far as logging instrument time, how is class A in VMC any different than class E in VMC? The requirement is flying solely by reference to instruments regardless of being on an IFR flight plan or not, correct?
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There is no wrinkle. Methane inhalation sometimes causes people to think things that aren't the case.
 
EdFred-This was supposed to be a joke. But since you want to drag this out, how about the obvious reason which is because the FAA says so. The rules make sense, sometimes not. I've always wondered about the process by which VFR was established. But regardless they have defined it and we have to work with it.

How long have you been working with your CFII? At first blush your comment seems self serving and arrogant. Let's see you are the student working toward your instrument rating. Between the two of you whom is more likely to have an informed rational evaluation of the training you need?

Your comment may be a reflection on you and only you. But, it might be a red flag that should trigger some evaluation on your part. Does you regularly discuss your progress? Are pre flight briefings and post flight reviews a normal part of each lesson? Have you discussed his plan to do some XC work? Maybe he thinks you need to work on basic attitude skills or something else that in his opinion is best accomplished XC. He is the instructor after all so he should be able to explain why. You need to start the conversation and be an active participant.

Keep us informed and I hope you enjoy pursuing your instrument rating, welcome to a better understanding of the NAS!
 
jonvcaples said:
EdFred-This was supposed to be a joke. But since you want to drag this out, how about the obvious reason which is because the FAA says so. The rules make sense, sometimes not. I've always wondered about the process by which VFR was established. But regardless they have defined it and we have to work with it.

How long have you been working with your CFII? At first blush your comment seems self serving and arrogant. Let's see you are the student working toward your instrument rating. Between the two of you whom is more likely to have an informed rational evaluation of the training you need?

Your comment may be a reflection on you and only you. But, it might be a red flag that should trigger some evaluation on your part. Does you regularly discuss your progress? Are pre flight briefings and post flight reviews a normal part of each lesson? Have you discussed his plan to do some XC work? Maybe he thinks you need to work on basic attitude skills or something else that in his opinion is best accomplished XC. He is the instructor after all so he should be able to explain why. You need to start the conversation and be an active participant.

Keep us informed and I hope you enjoy pursuing your instrument rating, welcome to a better understanding of the NAS!
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Jon... do NOT go there. You are making a huge mistake. You will be completely roasted over the coals.
These guys are not fly-by-night yahoos. They will dig out regs, general council letters, AIM, and anything else to prove their point.

And they can prove it.... because you are flat out incorrect. Flying in the flight levels does not entitle you to log instrument time.
 
Kritchlow, thank you for the warning! I hoped that by saying my response was intended to be a joke this matter would be put to bed. Alas, this appears to not be the case so no more posts on this.
 
jonvcaples said:
Kritchlow, thank you for the warning! I hoped that by saying my response was intended to be a joke this matter would be put to bed. Alas, this appears to not be the case so no more posts on this.
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Fair enough.... it was my interpretation (apparently incorrectly so), that you thought Ed’s post was a joke.
Mea Culpa.
 
The problem with communication is the illusion it was achieved:D
 
jonvcaples said:
The problem with communication is the illusion it was achieved:D
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Well your point sure seemed real to me, especially after several reiterations.

Trust me... your knowledge is welcome. Preaching is not. —just some friendly advice.

This is one of the toughest forums there is.
I have made blunders and raked over the coals when I first came here. I’m a captain for a major carrier, and thought I had a lot to offer. I still believe that, but what I now try to offer is more experience related things. The regs and AIM stuff.... heck, I leave that to the fresh private pilot guys or some others here that keep up on that stuff.
I solidly know what I need to for my airline. I no longer pretend to know some of the GA intricacies. At one point I was a CFI, but I’ve been out of GA for too many years.
 
91 v 121 about the only thing that is the same is the displacement of air molecules tends to happen with greater speed and mass. We should all be open to learning from each other and helping encourage everyone.

Some of the posts on here are funny attempts at, well I'm not sure what. The ground doesn't care about the pilot's opinion, interpretation of the law, or anything else. When you run out of altitude, airspeed, and good ideas you are in trouble. I believe there are two golden rules in aviation:
1-In all air breathing engine equipped vehicles take off is optional and return to earth is mandatory.
2-Before you ask can I you better know should I.

Everyone have a great rest of your life!
 
jonvcaples said:
EdFred-This was supposed to be a joke. But since you want to drag this out, how about the obvious reason which is because the FAA says so. The rules make sense, sometimes not. I've always wondered about the process by which VFR was established. But regardless they have defined it and we have to work with it.

How long have you been working with your CFII? At first blush your comment seems self serving and arrogant. Let's see you are the student working toward your instrument rating. Between the two of you whom is more likely to have an informed rational evaluation of the training you need?

Your comment may be a reflection on you and only you. But, it might be a red flag that should trigger some evaluation on your part. Does you regularly discuss your progress? Are pre flight briefings and post flight reviews a normal part of each lesson? Have you discussed his plan to do some XC work? Maybe he thinks you need to work on basic attitude skills or something else that in his opinion is best accomplished XC. He is the instructor after all so he should be able to explain why. You need to start the conversation and be an active participant.

Keep us informed and I hope you enjoy pursuing your instrument rating, welcome to a better understanding of the NAS!
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Whenever the last time I had an IPC was. I'm gonna guess 2013 as I remain current, and I generally have a better grasp on things than MY students do. Still wondering how just being IFR allows logging instrument time as you claim.
 
EdFred said:
Whenever the last time I had an IPC was. I'm gonna guess 2013 as I remain current, and I generally have a better grasp on things than MY students do. Still wondering how just being IFR allows logging instrument time as you claim.
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I'm not 100% certain, but my impression is he meant that THAT was said in jest... would help though if he clarified. It's up to him of course.
 
azure said:
I'm not 100% certain, but my impression is he meant that THAT was said in jest... would help though if he clarified. It's up to him of course.
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Hard to tell. He (caples) shows up and gives sermons, then expounds on subjects he clearly only has a basic understanding of.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If you’re on an IFR clearance below 18,000 feet, does the FAA not say you’re IFR, even in VMC?
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This is the only direct question I've received. My understanding is if you are below 18,000 feet, in VMC and not using an approved view limiting device then you are not in IMC (and regardless of whether you are on a flight plan) you cannot log the time as instrument.

My attempt at a humorous answer has a factual basis. This URL will take you to an FAA site that directly applies.
https://aspmhelp.faa.gov/index.php/Airspace_Classification

Per the website associated with that URL you will read the following. "Class A Generally, airspace from 18,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) up to and including flight level (FL) 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles (NM) of the coast of the 48 contiguous states and Alaska. Unless otherwise authorized, all pilots must operate their aircraft under instrument flight rules (IFR)."

Is this not sufficiently clear? The FAA says if you are at or above FL180 you must operate under IFR. No mention of whether conditions are VMC or IMC. The simple fact you are at or above FL180 they have decided you are operating solely by your instruments. Why? Beats me! Maybe they figure from that altitude you cannot see surface detail with sufficient clarity to navigate safely. Or weather phenomenon may completely obscure the surface preventing using our vision to properly orient and control the aircraft. Or who knows? Bottom line the definition of Class A airspace says you are IFR!

I intended to provide a tongue-in-cheek answer combining humor and fact. Obviously did not accomplish the goal so my apologies.

Now if someone has a direct question please ask it.
 
Maybe this will help. If I fly with the rotating beacon and nav lights on does that mean I am flying at night? Even during the day? Obviously not.
 
jonvcaples said:
Is this not sufficiently clear? The FAA says if you are at or above FL180 you must operate under IFR. No mention of whether conditions are VMC or IMC. The simple fact you are at or above FL180 they have decided you are operating solely by your instruments. Why? Beats me! Maybe they figure from that altitude you cannot see surface detail with sufficient clarity to navigate safely. Or weather phenomenon may completely obscure the surface preventing using our vision to properly orient and control the aircraft. Or who knows? Bottom line the definition of Class A airspace says you are IFR!
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You clearly don't understand airspace and ATC.

Once again, and you've conveniently ignored this once, the reason everything above FL180 is IFR is due to traffic separation in the NAS. It would be a nightmare for ATC with the volume of traffic operating above FL180 for some guy flying VFR and not talking to anyone, nor being on a flight plan.

IFR requires a flight plan and a clearance.
 
jonvcaples said:
This is the only direct question I've received. My understanding is if you are below 18,000 feet, in VMC and not using an approved view limiting device then you are not in IMC (and regardless of whether you are on a flight plan) you cannot log the time as instrument.

My attempt at a humorous answer has a factual basis. This URL will take you to an FAA site that directly applies.
https://aspmhelp.faa.gov/index.php/Airspace_Classification

Per the website associated with that URL you will read the following. "Class A Generally, airspace from 18,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) up to and including flight level (FL) 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles (NM) of the coast of the 48 contiguous states and Alaska. Unless otherwise authorized, all pilots must operate their aircraft under instrument flight rules (IFR)."

Is this not sufficiently clear? The FAA says if you are at or above FL180 you must operate under IFR. No mention of whether conditions are VMC or IMC. The simple fact you are at or above FL180 they have decided you are operating solely by your instruments. Why? Beats me! Maybe they figure from that altitude you cannot see surface detail with sufficient clarity to navigate safely. Or weather phenomenon may completely obscure the surface preventing using our vision to properly orient and control the aircraft. Or who knows? Bottom line the definition of Class A airspace says you are IFR!

I intended to provide a tongue-in-cheek answer combining humor and fact. Obviously did not accomplish the goal so my apologies.

Now if someone has a direct question please ask it.
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That was the direct question to which I was referring, and you have clarified your gross misunderstanding of basic aviation terms.

Thank you.
 
Doc, thank you for bringing this up. It has not been mentioned until now so it was not ignored just not brought into play.
 
@jonvcaples are you instrument rated? Flying under IFR rules is very much different than flying solely by instruments. If conditions are VMC - even on an IFR plan, even in Class A - you must still be looking out the window for traffic and you will not be logging instrument time. It’s no different than Class E actually.

If you are kidding about this, it’s lost on me(and seems like everyone else)
 
jonvcaples said:
Per the website associated with that URL you will read the following. "Class A Generally, airspace from 18,000 feet mean sea level (MSL) up to and including flight level (FL) 600, including the airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles (NM) of the coast of the 48 contiguous states and Alaska. Unless otherwise authorized, all pilots must operate their aircraft under instrument flight rules (IFR)."

Is this not sufficiently clear? The FAA says if you are at or above FL180 you must operate under IFR. No mention of whether conditions are VMC or IMC. The simple fact you are at or above FL180 they have decided you are operating solely by your instruments. Why? Beats me! Maybe they figure from that altitude you cannot see surface detail with sufficient clarity to navigate safely. Or weather phenomenon may completely obscure the surface preventing using our vision to properly orient and control the aircraft. Or who knows? Bottom line the definition of Class A airspace says you are IFR!
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We all know you must operate IFR above FL180. Nothing new there.
The point is just because you are operating under IFR does not mean you are logging instrument time.

I think you’re saying you can, but I’m very confused at what you’re driving at all of a sudden.
 
Hola Kritchlow,

The intent was a humorous, tongue and cheek remark. I'm just going to let this alone for a bit.
 
jonvcaples said:
This is the only direct question I've received. My understanding is if you are below 18,000 feet, in VMC and not using an approved view limiting device then you are not in IMC (and regardless of whether you are on a flight plan) you cannot log the time as instrument.
Click to expand...

Also incorrect. See "moonless night" interpretation. Wow, you are really batting 1.000 aren't you?
 
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