Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
How acceptable is it to plan, and pick up your IFR flight plan @ a fix or waypoint rather than the departure airport?
IFR flight plan @ waypoint
- Thread starter Mxfarm
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As @FORANE states, perfectly fine in VMC. At my home port I prefer to pick up in the air as it is untowered, Echo at 700', and only a Charlie that is easy to vector away from until I get clearance.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
Yep. As an example, the NOTAM'd procedure for AirVenture if you want to pickup an IFR clearance airborne out of Osh southbound is to file from Dells VOR (DLL), not KOSH, and to call Madison Approach to activate once you're over the VOR. Again the catch is you have to stay VMC from Osh to DLL which is roughly 60nm.
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Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
My thinking was it would be better than a pop-up. Your in the system, and they should be expecting you, @ least as much as any other flight plan.
Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
I know I might not be thinking about this correct - but does opening a your flight plan @ 11.5K' cause a bit of pause, or does the controller automatically
know what your doing?
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
I guess i‘m trying to understand why if you aren’t going the pop up route what’s the benefit of doing this? Why not just go ahead and file from your origin unless you’re wanting to create a composite flight plan?
Not as much of a pause as some random waypoint the controller might never have heard of.I know I might not be thinking about this correct - but does opening a your flight plan @ 11.5K' cause a bit of pause, or does the controller automatically
The conversation is really no different than at 3.5K'.
There are a few reasons for VFR departures with remote in-flight pickups. Most common one is probably busy airspace. Between release delays and routings that maintain IFR separation requirements, one can find it far more efficient to depart VFR, get out of the busy area and then pick up the clearance. You want to use an airport where you plan to pick it up if for no reason other than the controller having it right there - because it's in their area - and not have to try to find it.
From the pilot side, might as well use an airport so you can look up the frequency to call.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
I guess. I’ve done the in air pickup out uncontrolled fields due to the one in one out rule. This past Osh at our fuel stop I had to depart VFR and pick it up in the air or wait 30 mins to get it on the ground. But it was still my original flight plan—the departure point didn’t change, just my position in relation to it. I don’t see the benefit of refiling just to change the first fix unless you plan to travel a good distance VFR before picking it up and possibly into someone else’s airspace.
Exactly. That's when you would use it.
If you look at the approach charts, my home base, KTTA is in RDU TRACON airspace. You can pull up the chart. RDU is 23nm NW. FAY is 37 S. GSO is 50.somehting NW. But if I am heading south, will immediately be in FAY's airspace (despite what the approach plate says, FAY handles the approaches into TTA Runway 3). Head westerly and I will be in GSO's airspace in about 20 NM.
I already know if I head south, I won't be speaking to RDU at all (even if I pick up on the ground) and FAY has my flight plan if I list KTTA when I call them after departure.
I'm not sure about GSO, but if I'm going to depart TTA VFR going toward them because it's the usual busy day at TTA, it's a complete wast of time to call RDU to be handed off to GSO in 2 minutes, so my first call would be GSO. Why not choose an airport that I'm certain will put my flight plan right in front of them?
Different strokes.
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Unless the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the charlie tells you to stay out or addresses you without using your callsign, you can enter it as soon as you have established two-way communication with them. You don't have to wait for a clearance.
A situation in which I have found this useful is when departing from a high mountain range in VFR conditions to a destination that is in IFR conditions. Truckee (TRK) to the SFO area is an example. The MEAs in the TRK area are over 11,000 MSL, whereas getting out of there VFR only requires climbing to about 8,000 or so. Also, icing is often more of a problem in the mountains.
I was referring to picking up my IFR clearance, not entry into the Charlie.
masloki
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Nunya
Agree with the above that in-air pickups work well, and better than a pop-up since you skip a lot of the details on the air. In-air pickup with not allow you to jump the queue if there are delays in effect, such as ground stops. Your in-air pickup could possibly include a nice 60 minute hold or no clearance at all, if they can’t sequence you in.
Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
I can see that if your trying to get into a B or maybe a C - but not as likely to Smallsville USA<?>.
John Collins
En-Route
YFR and ZFR are not supported in the US. Military can file them with an 1801 email to their Baseops. Until you have obtained your clearance, only a single center will have a copy, so if you fly out of the airspace controlled by the center that handles your departure airport, the controller won't be able to find your flight plan.
John Collins
En-Route
KGSO is in Atlanta Center, KRDU, KTTA, and KFAY are all in Washington center. If you file off of KGSO, you will need to contact Atlanta center to pickup a clearance KGSO to KTTA. KBUY, KSIF, KSCRand KMTV are all a part of Washington center, but Atlanta center has an agreement with Washington center to handle flights from these airports.
John Collins
En-Route
It sorta works, but there are considerations with VOR and within 50 NM or so of a charted center boundary. It is better to pick an airport along your route and file your flight plan from the airport with a nearby VOR or waypoint/fix as your pickup point. By filing from an airport, even if you will overfly it, you can contact their approach control and be assured they will have your flight plan on file and you will be able to get your clearance.
masloki
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Nunya
Aspen airport is the one I read about for the issue of flow control as it applies to GA.
You can pick it up just fine in class B or C. You just need to be legally operating VFR there before you change to IFR.
Why? Out of GSO, call CD. Unless for some reason I want to fly the 50 mile trip to TTA above 10,000 I’ll never talk to Center.
Yes but it sounds like he wants to take off vfr and not talk to anyone until he requests his clearance airborne.
Ventucky Red
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Jon
If I may ask, what is the purpose of your question?
To me, it appears you may be adding to your workload when airborne with the chance you may not get "as filed."
I do this all the time. Back when our field was in ZTL territory, I could raise them on the ground and get an IFR clearance "upon entering controlled airspace." Now we're in the CLT approach airspace and they're harder to deal with. I file for an intersection far enough north to be in ZTL land and pick it up there.
I've also been told by BOS to go file with FSS for pop up clearances and once by GSO. Pretty much I file for where I am going to be in a few minutes and then go back to the ATC frequency and ask them to let me know when they get the strip.
Most of the time though it goes like this when I'm getting VFR advisories:
ME: Looks like it's getting IFR ahead, can I get IFR at 6000?
ZIN: Cleared to Culpeper via direct, climb and maintain 6000.
I've also been told by BOS to go file with FSS for pop up clearances and once by GSO. Pretty much I file for where I am going to be in a few minutes and then go back to the ATC frequency and ask them to let me know when they get the strip.
Most of the time though it goes like this when I'm getting VFR advisories:
ME: Looks like it's getting IFR ahead, can I get IFR at 6000?
ZIN: Cleared to Culpeper via direct, climb and maintain 6000.
Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
If I'm departing CAVU, but the destination is 1K' ceilings, I want to stay VFR until a point of my choosing. Flying central mid-west.
I'm curious why. Just a general preference for VFR? There are plenty of places where VFR vs IFR can make a significant difference in routing and other things (in both ways), but KPTS looks like in the heart of "Direct" country where there would be little difference in routing, time of flight, and pilot workload unless heading due north toward the MCI Bravo.
Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
no certified IFR GPS.
Ventucky Red
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Jon
Good reason.
Happens all the time. I’ve probably done popups about 10 times.Can you or have you done a "pop-up" clearance? A friend wants to know...
Mxfarm
Line Up and Wait
yes, but always in lazy Charlie.Can you or have you done a "pop-up" clearance? A friend wants to know...
Rgbeard
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rgbeard
done it several times, was never a problem.
John Collins
En-Route
Simply pointing out that Washington center won't have or be able to obtain your flight plan due to how flight plans are distributed.
John, I understand that there will be distribution issues in terms of whether they already have it, but "unable to obtain" doesn't make sense to me.
John Collins
En-Route
The distribution of flight plans is archaic in that they are only available to the center which they are originally filed with. Once the clearance is given, further distribution occurs, but if one is contacting ATC to retrieve their flight plan with the intent of obtaining a clearance, it has to be via the center it was filed with. If a tower or TRACON is part of the center distribution, controllers at those facilities are able to retrieve the flight plan via that center and issue a clearance. An example of a situation I worked on was a case when two aircraft with the same company decided to depart VFR and pickup their clearance enroute after departing from an airport that was near a center boundary, one was northbound, the other was southbound. The one going north contacted ATC and was able to obtain their clearance because the controller contacted was part of the same center/TRACON. The pilot going south, contacted the Center which had no record of the flightplan, so ended up air filing and complaining the flight plan was lost. It was never lost, just inaccessible to the center or any TRACON associated with that center.
The FAA has an order 7350.9EE that lists all the US airports the center that is used. IFR flight plans go to only the listed center. That enables filing companies to know which center to transmit the flight plan to. But there is no guidance document on which center is responsible for processing flight plans that have a non-airport point of origination. You might think that the charted center boundaries would be able to be used to figure out where to send these non-airport departure or pickup points, but that does not work, because centers have agreements between each other to handle areas that are within their neighbors charted boundaries. File with the wrong center and the flight plan may get rejected, with a not my job type error message. I got the FAA to publish what is called the Center Surface Boundaries so that flight plans from non-airport points of departure such as VOR, Waypoint, Fix-radial-distance, or Latitude-Longitude would be routed to the correct center that is responsible for handling the filing of flight plans and issuing clearances. All this comes into play when you file with a non-airport pickup point. If the pickup point is in a different center than the departure airport was filed at, controllers are unable to access the flight plan to issue the clearance.
These instructions in the 2024 Sun N Fun fly-in NOTAM are explaining how to do a VFR departure with an IFR pickup because of the inability for controllers in one center to not be able to retrieve proposed flight plans from the adjacent center. You can see what they are doing if you plot the center surface boundaries.
Here is a link to a user content file that depicts the Center Surface Boundaries https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wKdCbZClnhHDn8p_qZpqzCbR43CbVAhV/view?usp=sharing
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I guess I'm thick today. I'm not following.
I file a fight plan from Burlington (BUY is in Washington Center) to Winston Salem (INT is in Atlanta Center). Greensboro TRACON is in Atlanta Center. But they are the controlling TRACON for both BUY and INT. According to what you wrote, GSO would not have the flight plan departing from BUY (even though GSO controls approaches/departures there) because of the difference in Centers.
Or, is is just that, due to it's location, GSO TRACON is in the distribution channel for both Washington and Atlanta Centers?
How does all that affect the scenario you originally responded to: Filing out of TTA but not picking up until I'm talking to GSO? You were at least suggesting that wouldn't work because of the Center difference.
