IFR Departure, “turn heading XYZ”

[Sluggo63]

KMKC

Sorry. I was actually asking for the airport that the OP ( @Arob16 ) was departing from. But that was my point, was there a DP published that had an altitude restriction before a turn.

Either way, departing on an IFR flight, I’d wait until 400’ before turning. Even with an “immediate turn” instruction.

 

[aterpster]

Yep, but I was given an immediate right turn to 250 heading. I had a business jet behind me so I think they wanted me out of his way.

Were you on an instrument flight plan?

 

[GBSoren]

Were you on an instrument flight plan?

Yes I was

 

[GBSoren]

Did either you or any of the ATC you spoke to acknowledge that you would not execute the published ODP?

No, I just did what ATC told me to do, I repeated back the instruction of an immediate turn to 250 and wasn't corrected. When switched to KC departure they turned me to a 270 heading. My departure clearance may just have been because my final heading was going to be 350 as I was heading back to MN. I was on a IFR flight plan, but it was VFR, ceiling were about 4000', clearance was to climb to 3000'. I'm sure I was at 400' before I turned anyway, like I said I didn't start my turn until after getting flaps up and I always wait until I'm at least 300' before raising flaps. Looking at flightaware I don't show up until just southwest of the airport, at that point I'm at 2100'(according to FA).

 

[aterpster]

Yes I was

Then, ATC was completely out of order. If it hasn't been 10 days you might consider a NASA safety report.

 

[Arob16]

Sorry. I was actually asking for the airport that the OP ( @Arob16 ) was departing from. But that was my point, was there a DP published that had an altitude restriction before a turn.

Either way, departing on an IFR flight, I’d wait until 400’ before turning. Even with an “immediate turn” instruction.

@Sluggo63 clearance was “on departure, left turn heading 330 vectors MRRIC1 departure”. Departure airport was KSDL runway 3.

 

[Plano Pilot]

Then, ATC was completely out of order. If it hasn't been 10 days you might consider a NASA safety report.

It was VFR conditions out of an airport with a control tower what is the problem even if they were on an IFR flight?

 

[aterpster]

It was VFR conditions out of an airport with a control tower what is the problem even if they were on an IFR flight?

That needs to be sorted out. It is a climb gradient ODP. The weather was such that he would become IMC during the ODP.

 

[dtuuri]

That needs to be sorted out. It is a climb gradient ODP. The weather was such that he would become IMC during the ODP.

???

I just flew out of KC downtown this weekend, was departing 19 but destination was north, clearance was make an immediate right turn to 250 heading. I can't say for sure how high I was when I began my turn but I always wait until 300' before getting my flaps up and I never turn before that. First time I've had that in clearance, cloud bases were about 3500' so obstacle avoidance wasn't an issue.

 

[aterpster]

???

​

It his opinion that obstacle clearance wasn't an issue. The fact was, he was turned off the ODP while well below MVA and KMKC doesn't have a DVA.

 

[dtuuri]

It his opinion that obstacle clearance wasn't an issue. The fact was, he was turned off the ODP while well below MVA and KMKC doesn't have a DVA.

With bases at 3500' AGL I would think ATC is within their right to ask for a turn for traffic reasons. The PIC, likewise, could ask to follow the ODP to 2500' first. The question is, "Who's request trumps the other?" If the clearance was issued prior to takeoff there would be time to resolve it. After takeoff, though, in good VMC, I nod to ATC. IMC? The pilot gets the nod, IMO.

 

[Tantalum]

I was always told it was 400 ft / end of the runway (both, not either/or). When given "early turnout approved" still wait to hit 400 ft but turn prior to the runway departure end

 

[aterpster]

With bases at 3500' AGL I would think ATC is within their right to ask for a turn for traffic reasons. The PIC, likewise, could ask to follow the ODP to 2500' first. The question is, "Who's request trumps the other?" If the clearance was issued prior to takeoff there would be time to resolve it. After takeoff, though, in good VMC, I nod to ATC. IMC? The pilot gets the nod, IMO.

Then, they should issue a VFR restriction.

 

[dtuuri]

Then, they should issue a VFR restriction.

Is that official policy? It seems reasonable enough to make it one, if not. What do the controllers have to say, I wonder. I can't remember ever receiving such a restriction, but then I don't remember everything. To be clear, I'm not saying that turning prior to 400' and the end of the runway is acceptable to perform or expect to be performed except in a dire emergency. I doubt at either MKC or in the OP's case it was an emergency, so they shouldn't have (if they did).

 

[Arob16]

Attached is a Text response from a tower controller at my local airport when I asked him for his input (not the airport in question). I spoke to him on the phone as well and his advice was essentially 1) tower controller needs to ensure the entire pattern in direction of turn is clear, and 2) better situational awareness for all involved. I agreed with him.

 

[aterpster]

Attached is a Text response from a tower controller at my local airport when I asked him for his input (not the airport in question). I spoke to him on the phone as well and his advice was essentially 1) tower controller needs to ensure the entire pattern in direction of turn is clear, and 2) better situational awareness for all involved. I agreed with him.

That's fine for VFR.

 

[aterpster]

Is that official policy? It seems reasonable enough to make it one, if not. What do the controllers have to say, I wonder. I can't remember ever receiving such a restriction, but then I don't remember everything. To be clear, I'm not saying that turning prior to 400' and the end of the runway is acceptable to perform or expect to be performed except in a dire emergency. I doubt at either MKC or in the OP's case it was an emergency, so they shouldn't have (if they did).

I don't recall having been issued such an instruction, either. I often requested VFR climbs through 17,000 at KABQ, but that was my request.

At MKC there are five SIDs that have the same requirements to 2,500 as does the ODP. What that tells me is that radar contact isn't assured until somewhere around 2,000. And, as I stated previously there is no DVA for MKC. So, what if you are on one of those five SIDs? What is the proper procedure for a non-radar local controller to take you off the SID? Seems like it would have to be coordinated with the TRACON departure controller. There is no issue with obstacles turning further right, but there sure is if a left turn were issued by the controller. MKC was my domicile for two years. Plus I flew in and out of there before and after those two years until TWA moved to MCI in 1971. When departing Runway 18 (now 19) the tower never modified the charted SID.

 

[Dave S.]

My guess is that he had an opposite direction downwind being vectored to the approach and was counting on a turn about 1/2 to a mile off the departure end for separation. When you turned what he considered too soon you might have turned into the downwind instead of passing behind him.

That would have been the tower’s responsibility to ensure that his instruction to turn to 330 missed the inbound traffic.

You probably caught him by surprise.

tex

 

[dtuuri]

My guess is that he had an opposite direction downwind being vectored to the approach and was counting on a turn about 1/2 to a mile off the departure end for separation.

My guess is he flew over some buildings at 200': https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/2007/pdf/05651AD.PDF

 

[N1120A]

I just flew out of KC downtown this weekend, was departing 19 but destination was north, clearance was make an immediate right turn to 250 heading. I can't say for sure how high I was when I began my turn but I always wait until 300' before getting my flaps up and I never turn before that. First time I've had that in clearance, cloud bases were about 3500' so obstacle avoidance wasn't an issue.

My guess is "immediate" meant to not wait even a foot above 400' AGL and the end of the runway, but who knows?