IFR Current - Spacial D freakout

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Took off the other day into a broken layer at 1500 AGL to begin a long instrument flight over an overcast layer. After take off, I was on instruments but configuring the aircraft for after takeoff, gear and flaps, adjusting power etc. Got into the clouds during climb out and immediately got the leans.

I've got 80 hours instrument time but only 17 in IMC so rather low time in regard to IMC flying. I recently did an IPC in IMC and felt fine. I did some solo enroute (IFR) cloud flying a few weeks back so I was really shocked that SD hit me as hard as it did. This was also the first time I've done a lot of this stuff (IMC climb-out and IMC approach) without another pilot sitting in the right seat so I knew it was all on me.

Luckily, I knew it was a thin layer and I emerged just a few seconds after getting my insides turned upside down. It really got my attention and I was pretty spooked the rest of the flight especially knowing that I'd eventually have to shoot an approach thru the clouds.

Prior to my approach, center cleared me to a lower altitude that stuck me back in the clouds for about 10 minutes which felt like an hour but at least this time I was better mentally prepared; but it still felt a little white-knucklish. I got below the clouds after the FAF and unpuckered a bit, but that was a really stressful flight.

I thought I was prepared, I started my scan prior to entering the clouds on take-off, prior to my roll I reminded myself of what to expect and practiced my flow so it would happen naturally so I could focus on my scan. But that Spacial D scare just freaked my bean and I never really fully recovered my nerves.

I feel like I need more practice, particularly solo IMC. Because I know with another pilot, there's someone else there that can save my bacon so it's not so terrifying. Problem is, I'm a little freaked and don't really know how to go up again into the clouds solo.
 
Get more practice in a thin layer with high mins. If you start to get the leans, climb up to clear skies and let your head settle.
 
You are normal. I barely remember my first solo, but I vividly remember my first time in IMC by myself. I promise you that the next time it will not be as big of a deal.

You might be surprised with how many IR pilots there are who have an AP in their airplane who don't regularly fly in IMC by hand who would have the same problems you had.
 
If you are distracted when entering IMC, it's pretty easy to get "the leans" for a bit. It can be especially pronounced if for any reason the lighting in IMC is asymmetric, confusing your eyes about which way is likely "up." I find that the feeling is typically temporary, and after a short period of concentrating on your instruments the conflicting cues will fade as your brain and vestibular system re-acclimates. Additional practice will probably help you desensitize the apprehension and increase confidence.
 
One of the problems with spatial disorientation is that we lose our scan...we tend to fixate on one instrument, which allows other parameters to deviate, and makes the problem worse (or at least harder to recover).

I can’t really offer any solutions other than “you just have to fight through it until you can get out of the clouds.” I had a really bad case back when I was doing my commercial training...kept up for a full two-hour lesson. When I got out of the airplane I could barely walk, much less drive home. 35 years and 13,000 hours later, I’ve only had a few minor occurrences, focused on my scan, and it went away in a few seconds.

I think it would be interesting to see if using the inadvertent IMC technique that AOPA used to teach would help, as it has you “fixate” largely on the turn & bank, but you’d have to give somebody a really good case of SD to find out.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One of the problems with spatial disorientation is that we lose our scan...we tend to fixate on one instrument, which allows other parameters to deviate, and makes the problem worse (or at least harder to recover).

I can’t really offer any solutions other than “you just have to fight through it until you can get out of the clouds.” I had a really bad case back when I was doing my commercial training...kept up for a full two-hour lesson. When I got out of the airplane I could barely walk, much less drive home. 35 years and 13,000 hours later, I’ve only had a few minor occurrences, focused on my scan, and it went away in a few seconds.

I think it would be interesting to see if using the inadvertent IMC technique that AOPA used to teach would help, as it has you “fixate” largely on the turn & bank, but you’d have to give somebody a really good case of SD to find out.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I held my scan together as best I could but I couldn't really make sense of what was in front of me which was really disconcerting. I just knew the layer was thin (500ft or so) and as long as I kept the blue side up and my altimeter was showing a climb that I'd be okay for the moment. So I just condensed my scan a bit and tried to focus until blue skies emerged. One of the things I didn't expect was how terrified I was the rest of the flight, all sorts of what-if scenarios raced through my brain during my 2 hours enroute between overcast layers. Once I started my approach I was approaching the front which had all sorts of build ups and broken layers with slanting false horizons all over the place. I mostly nailed the approach but had a little bit of a WTF moment when my VOR didn't come in like I expected to when intercepting the initial segment and got all leansy again trying to figure out why that needle wasn't moving. I found a pocket right at that moment where the clouds opened up and I could fly visually for a moment and reset my bearings. Gah! More practice for me, lol.
 
Why did you wait so long to configure gear and flaps?

My gear and flaps are up before I hit 200'

I still tend to lose heading, bank and altitude a little when I have to make frequency/waypoint changes.
 
EdFred said:
Why did you wait so long to configure gear and flaps?

My gear and flaps are up before I hit 200'

I still tend to lose heading, bank and altitude a little when I have to make frequency/waypoint changes.
Click to expand...

Because my 172 climbs at 2000 fpm lol.
 
labbadabba said:
Took off the other day into a broken layer at 1500 AGL to begin a long instrument flight over an overcast layer. After take off, I was on instruments but configuring the aircraft for after takeoff, gear and flaps, adjusting power etc. Got into the clouds during climb out and immediately got the leans.

I've got 80 hours instrument time but only 17 in IMC so rather low time in regard to IMC flying. I recently did an IPC in IMC and felt fine. I did some solo enroute (IFR) cloud flying a few weeks back so I was really shocked that SD hit me as hard as it did. This was also the first time I've done a lot of this stuff (IMC climb-out and IMC approach) without another pilot sitting in the right seat so I knew it was all on me.

Luckily, I knew it was a thin layer and I emerged just a few seconds after getting my insides turned upside down. It really got my attention and I was pretty spooked the rest of the flight especially knowing that I'd eventually have to shoot an approach thru the clouds.

Prior to my approach, center cleared me to a lower altitude that stuck me back in the clouds for about 10 minutes which felt like an hour but at least this time I was better mentally prepared; but it still felt a little white-knucklish. I got below the clouds after the FAF and unpuckered a bit, but that was a really stressful flight.

I thought I was prepared, I started my scan prior to entering the clouds on take-off, prior to my roll I reminded myself of what to expect and practiced my flow so it would happen naturally so I could focus on my scan. But that Spacial D scare just freaked my bean and I never really fully recovered my nerves.

I feel like I need more practice, particularly solo IMC. Because I know with another pilot, there's someone else there that can save my bacon so it's not so terrifying. Problem is, I'm a little freaked and don't really know how to go up again into the clouds solo.
Click to expand...

I think the only thing you "messed up" was allowing it to spook you. I've had mild SD a few times, so I just focus on the instruments while it is happening, and slow down the extra stuff I'm doing until it passes. It is a little disconcerting, but I knew the AC was under control, after a few scans including back up instruments.

One of the important things I got from my instructor was not to dwell on mistakes or issues like this while flying. Fix the issue, then move on, don't dwell on anything that doesn't need to be dwelled upon. If you want to dwell on it, do it later when you are on the ground.

Also, if you have an autopilot, use it. If you don't, put it on the short list for upgrades. Single pilot IFR is tough with no help.
 
Similar thing happened to me this weekend during IFR training. Climbing out fine, got the hood on and instantly started getting the "leans". I had to really focus and fight it for a good 5 minutes until I started feeling better.
 
EdFred said:
That's still 45 seconds before bringing the gear up. :confused:
Click to expand...

As an aside, do you wait until you're out of useable runway to bring up the gear? With an 8,000ft runway and a C172R it takes awhile to run out of runway. : )
 
labbadabba said:
As an aside, do you wait until you're out of useable runway to bring up the gear? With an 8,000ft runway and a C172R it takes awhile to run out of runway. : )
Click to expand...
Short answer for me is no...I’ve seen more airplanes totaled because the pilots were fixated on the runway rather than perfectly landable non-runway options than I have seen airplanes that landed back on the runway.
 
Any motion of your head can lead to disorientation. That’s because of the inner ear. It responds to turning or tilting your head.

Did you purposefully do anything to turn your head while in the cloud layer? Turn your head toward the radio, or to look out a side window, or look down at a chart, etc?

In a thin layer, you might be able to stop all that, and keep a steady attitude for your head as well as the plane. Enter the layer while facing directly toward the attitude indicator and keep facing it, with a motionless head. That might help for the couple of minutes you’re in the layer.
 
labbadabba said:
...Once I started my approach I was approaching the front which had all sorts of build ups and broken layers with slanting false horizons all over the place.
Click to expand...

In my early IFR flying I recall this was the scenario when I first experienced some temporary disorientation.

A few things to mention. Use if they apply to you. Get “on” the instruments early, we’ll before entering the IMC. Also, keep your head straight up, don’t be a bobble head. That just aggravates the situation. Throw everything in your favor. Your confidence will build as you carefully expose yourself to more IMC and your brain will deal with it better.

labbadabba said:
As an aside, do you wait until you're out of useable runway to bring up the gear? With an 8,000ft runway and a C172R it takes awhile to run out of runway. : )
Click to expand...

If the after takeoff tasks are causing you to enter IMC busily dealing with them, then do them early. Give up the security of expecting to need gear down after liftoff due to a forced landing (low probability) for better preparedness for the IMC entry (high probability). Then after some flights where that is not an issue you can go back to your original routine. Or, if you enter IMC immediately after takeoff (say 200 agl) then do them one step at a time instead of focusing too much attention on all of them lumped together causing distractions.
 
Solo IMC is a different animal for sure. I just got the rating two weeks ago, and I was amazed at how much difference it makes not having another pilot sitting next to you. On top of that is actual vs simulated. I've never had SD in simulated IMC, but often notice and have to actively resist it in actual, of which I only have about 10 hours. For now I'm holding myself to MVFR as a personal minimum so I know if I get messed up I can get back down VFR.

We had relatively benign conditions here Saturday bouncing between IFR and MVFR, so I went up to shoot a couple approaches and get a head start on the currency/proficiency war. I was in & out the whole time, and on a procedure turn while I was twisting in the inbound I got a little disoriented, but stayed on the instruments and did just fine. That flight was a huge confidence builder for me personally. The last approach wound up having a rogue cloud on the final approach segment that I broke out of about 500' AGL. I'm hoping that my skills and confidence will build if I keep doing these flights when the weather is right for it, and I'm anxious to see what more experienced instrument pilots have to say.
 
NoHeat said:
Any motion of your head can lead to disorientation. That’s because of the inner ear. It responds to turning or tilting your head.

Did you purposefully do anything to turn your head while in the cloud layer? Turn your head toward the radio, or to look out a side window, or look down at a chart, etc?

In a thin layer, you might be able to stop all that, and keep a steady attitude for your head as well as the plane. Enter the layer while facing directly toward the attitude indicator and keep facing it, with a motionless head. That might help for the couple of minutes you’re in the layer.
Click to expand...

I 'thought' I was on instruments and prepped but I guess I maybe was moving my head more than I thought. When cleared down prior to the approach, I knew I was about to fly into a thick stratus with scattered cumulus layer so I was absolutely on instruments and focused well before entering the clouds. But I was also terrified lol, even though I knew what to do and what to expect my earlier experience on climb out just had me spooked is all.
 
You and I bounced through the same clouds on saturday. It was a good day for practice. Just keep at it. Yes solo IMC is different. It just is.

Regarding the gear retraction, there are different Technics that are neither right or wrong. In the same situation, consider just bringing the gear and flaps up immediately so you have more time focused on your scan? Yeah the engine may quit, but which is a greater chance that or you needing a little extra time before entering IMC.

Also, some days we get some nice layers that are between 3-8k Get some solo IMC cruise time. Nice buffer underneath them.
 
labbadabba said:
As an aside, do you wait until you're out of useable runway to bring up the gear? With an 8,000ft runway and a C172R it takes awhile to run out of runway. : )
Click to expand...

It depends on a few factors. Even that 45 seconds post rotation puts you well out of usable runway.
Ball park WAG numbers:
Probably aren't doing short field take off, not super worried about being off right away, so call it 1000feet down the runway to rotate.
7000ft left
Rotate at around 80 and pitch to climb out at 100 mph.
80 mph is 117fps and 100mph is 146fps. Let's average it and call it 90mph. 132fps
You climb at 2000fpm, but you aren't getting that right away, call it 1500fpm (25fps) average over the course of the climb to 1500, so it takes 60seconds to get to the cloud layer.
Climb gradient 5:1 (yeah, I'm rounding)
60 seconds at 132fps is 7920. So that puts you 1000 feet beyond the runway before you pull the gear up.

So the question becomes how *bad* of a glide ratio (full slip at approach speed) to get back down in case the engine chokes? 4:1 maybe?
And you want to be able to stop before the end of the runway. So your rotate to touchdown distance is 6000'. Take that 4:1 and calculate where it intersects your 5:1 climb gradient.
About 3300 ft from the lift off point.
3300ft/132fps, about 25 seconds after rotate is when the gear should/can come up.
But I'll even give you the extra 1000 feet so you touch down right on the numbers at the far end.
3800ft/132fps about 30 seconds after rotate is where you run out of usable runway.

Maybe my numbers are off, but gear retraction would happen well before getting into the gunk.
 
When I went to Air Venture in 2016, one of the most interesting things I did was the FAA's spatial disorientation simulator. It was one of those centrifuges with the single seat with MS Flight Simulator in it (not particularly high-tech). The FAA guy running the simulator started the centrifuge then had me do several flying tasks like a climb and turn. The last one he had me do was to look down at the chart. Like flipping a switch, SD hit me hard. The remedy they gave was to keep my head facing straight ahead and not look around. It went away after a few seconds.

I never got it flying in IMC (yet), but it was a good demonstration on what SD feels like. I'd highly recommend that demo if you get the opportunity.
 
I guess it depends on the plane. For the Navion, if I have time to retract the gear, I more than enough to put it down. I raise when I have a positive rate of climb. She climbs better and gets to a safer altitude sooner.
 
labbadabba said:
Took off the other day into a broken layer at 1500 AGL to begin a long instrument flight over an overcast layer. After take off, I was on instruments but configuring the aircraft for after takeoff, gear and flaps, adjusting power etc. Got into the clouds during climb out and immediately got the leans.

I've got 80 hours instrument time but only 17 in IMC so rather low time in regard to IMC flying. I recently did an IPC in IMC and felt fine. I did some solo enroute (IFR) cloud flying a few weeks back so I was really shocked that SD hit me as hard as it did. This was also the first time I've done a lot of this stuff (IMC climb-out and IMC approach) without another pilot sitting in the right seat so I knew it was all on me.

Luckily, I knew it was a thin layer and I emerged just a few seconds after getting my insides turned upside down. It really got my attention and I was pretty spooked the rest of the flight especially knowing that I'd eventually have to shoot an approach thru the clouds.

Prior to my approach, center cleared me to a lower altitude that stuck me back in the clouds for about 10 minutes which felt like an hour but at least this time I was better mentally prepared; but it still felt a little white-knucklish. I got below the clouds after the FAF and unpuckered a bit, but that was a really stressful flight.

I thought I was prepared, I started my scan prior to entering the clouds on take-off, prior to my roll I reminded myself of what to expect and practiced my flow so it would happen naturally so I could focus on my scan. But that Spacial D scare just freaked my bean and I never really fully recovered my nerves.

I feel like I need more practice, particularly solo IMC. Because I know with another pilot, there's someone else there that can save my bacon so it's not so terrifying. Problem is, I'm a little freaked and don't really know how to go up again into the clouds solo.
Click to expand...
I pretend I'm a meat autopilot and follow the instruments. Ignore all the false cues your brain tells you. Also.. if you're coordinated it *should* feel like you're just sitting in a chair with your eyes closed. When I start feeling "goofy" flying IMC I usually find that the ball is not in the middle, a gentle tap and aileron adjustment usually fixes that

But "meat autopilot" has always worked me.
 
I can definitely relate. I just got my IFR rating on the 3rd. Same thing happened to me. I was in the clouds and started feeling off. I actually grabbed my foggles and put them on. Believe it or not that actually helped a lot. I just stayed on my scan and a few minutes later I was fine.
 
labbadabba said:
Yeah, I held my scan together as best I could but I couldn't really make sense of what was in front of me which was really disconcerting. I just knew the layer was thin (500ft or so) and as long as I kept the blue side up and my altimeter was showing a climb that I'd be okay for the moment. So I just condensed my scan a bit and tried to focus until blue skies emerged. One of the things I didn't expect was how terrified I was the rest of the flight...
Click to expand...

If you don't have complete confidence in your instrument scan and aircraft performance control, I would suggest getting together with a CFII and seeking out IMC conditions to do some training flights in. You may need to refresh your scan and power-pitch-performance control basics. Knowing your aircraft "numbers" for various flight regimes takes a lot of effort off the table when flying IFR. Some momentary disorientation as you transition from VMC to IMC is normal, but should normally quickly dissipate. You don't want to be in the position of being in IMC hoping for VMC conditions to appear. If you are going to use the instrument rating, you need to be prepared to fly for extended periods in IMC. Fly like you train; train like you fly. Different instructors have different tips, tricks, and approaches that can help you become a more confident pilot.
 
My first time in IMC after getting my rating was more then I thought it would be. Was a solid deck at 1000’. Planned on three approaches. Thought I’d get above it but didn’t happen. Plus was more turbulent then I expected. I learned a few things that day that have helped. Having more tasks makes the leans harder ImO.
Trim is your friend. Trim for a climbout airspeed as soon as your square up your cruise power. One less control input.
My plane has autopilot with heading bug and altitude hold. Normally I only engage when straight and level. But I have learned for an IMC climb out I’ll engage the heading bug as well especially if it’s a busy time or-radios...clearance amendments...
Expect the SD. Less of a surprise then. It’s good to get up early after getting the rating and scare yourself a bit. Very quickly will learn to trust your training, manage cockpit better, handle change. Probably the hardest IMC I’ve been in since I got my rating was that first time by myself. Cut out one of the approaches I planned because after slogging my way to the IAF for my first approach I was spent doing that approach.
Enjoy!
 
Thanks much for posting this, and all the replies. I just got my instrument a week and a half ago, and do not have much actual at all from training. What little I did, I could definitely tell it was different.
 
I could be crazy but I feel like it sounds different too... sort of "muted" ? if the air vents are open it also feels more "damp"

It's certainly a much different experience than simply throwing on the foggles, that's for sure!
 
Tantalum said:
I could be crazy but I feel like it sounds different too... sort of "muted" ? if the air vents are open it also feels more "damp"

It's certainly a much different experience than simply throwing on the foggles, that's for sure!
Click to expand...

In a cessna the wing struts start to "sing" in my 182 I can hear it even with a NC headset.
 
Tantalum said:
I could be crazy but I feel like it sounds different too... sort of "muted" ? if the air vents are open it also feels more "damp"

It's certainly a much different experience than simply throwing on the foggles, that's for sure!
Click to expand...
Nope... that's the first thing I noticed the first time we went IMC.... I could feel and smell the moisture.
 
It is surprising how many of the flight instruments (not the power instruments over on the right side of the panel) you can see with peripheral vision with your head facing forward and only your eyes moving. It is equally amazing how, with a little practice, you can reach/manipulate switches/controls by feel without looking at them. Most pilots with normal hearing can make rough power adjustments by sound alone, glancing at the power instruments only for purposes of fine-tuning for a specific setting. After all, is the plane going to enter a graveyard spiral just because the tach is at 2350 instead of 2400, or the manifold pressure at 21 instead of 22?

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
It is surprising how many of the flight instruments (not the power instruments over on the right side of the panel) you can see with peripheral vision with your head facing forward and only your eyes moving. It is equally amazing how, with a little practice, you can reach/manipulate switches/controls by feel without looking at them. Most pilots with normal hearing can make rough power adjustments by sound alone, glancing at the power instruments only for purposes of fine-tuning for a specific setting. After all, is the plane going to enter a graveyard spiral just because the tach is at 2350 instead of 2400, or the manifold pressure at 21 instead of 22?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

It also amazing how close you can get that freq handoff, by feel. And then just a quick check to see how close you got :)
 
AlphaMike said:
In a cessna the wing struts start to "sing" in my 182 I can hear it even with a NC headset.
Click to expand...
I have a 182. Skylane song I call it. It can be very disorienting as it will make you think you are accelerating or descending based on the sound. I took a friend up a few weeks ago who is working on his instrument into some IMC and he was blown away by it he had a hard time overcoming the sensation.
 
benyflyguy said:
I have a 182. Skylane song I call it. It can be very disorienting as it will make you think you are accelerating or descending based on the sound. I took a friend up a few weeks ago who is working on his instrument into some IMC and he was blown away by it he had a hard time overcoming the sensation.
Click to expand...
Oh I haven’t experienced that yet but will watch for it in mine
 
I have an STEC autopilot for sale in the trading post. $500 well spent if you don’t currently have an autopilot. I typically hand fly up to 1,000 feet then engage autopilot and monitor it closely. It helps reduce single pilot IfR workload tremendously.
 
Great post.

In my experience you brain somehow adjusts and learns; you just trust your instruments.

It gets much easier, but may never completely go; can vary from one flight to another. Doing things.. gradually ...helps.

We have evolved to rely on our balance systems over millions of years.
 
Oh....it's all in your head. Keep going with your scan...and don't make it worse by looking out. I don't fly IMC much....but have to work through this regularly.
 
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