IFR Clearences

Marcsamo

Marcsamo

Pre-Flight
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Sanford, Florida, USA
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Display name:
Marc Sabate
IFR Clearances

Good day,

I'm working on the IR and I'm confused a bit about how can you get an IFR clearance in an uncontrolled airport. I know you can get it from the ATC trying to contact approach from the ground. And I also know that you can get it contacting some frequencies displayed in the charts but I'm not sure what's that. And I've been told about GCO (Ground Comunication Outlet) and RCO, does anybody has this topic clear and can help me? Thank you!!
 
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Typically..
Class D - Contact Ground
Class C - Contact Clearance Delivery
Class B - Contact Clearance Delivery
Uncontrolled - Depends.. sometimes you can reach a freq. from the ground. or Call them directly on the phone. or call the 1800#. or if its VFR, take off and pick it up in the air.
 
All clearances from an uncontrolled airport are going to have a void by time, aren't they?
 
JasonM said:
Typically..
Class D - Contact Ground
Class C - Contact Clearance Delivery
Class B - Contact Clearance Delivery
Uncontrolled - Depends.. sometimes you can reach a freq. from the ground. or Call them directly on the phone. or call the 1800#. or if its VFR, take off and pick it up in the air.
Click to expand...

So basically, if it's uncontrolled, you either try contact ATC from the ground with the airplane radios, or you call them or FSS?
 
For uncontrolled,

Ideally, pickup your IFR on the freq on the approach plate for that airport once airborne, if you can take off VFR and get reception before hitting the cloud bases.

If you can't do the above, try the freq on the ground, otherwise you can always call the phone number (great reason for a Bluetooth headset).

Towered airports are easy, just call up clearance delivery or ground.
 
JasonM said:
Typically..
Class D - Contact Ground
Class C - Contact Clearance Delivery
Class B - Contact Clearance Delivery
Uncontrolled - Depends.. sometimes you can reach a freq. from the ground. or Call them directly on the phone. or call the 1800#. or if its VFR, take off and pick it up in the air.
Click to expand...

You imply they typically don't, but in my experience many (if not most) class D airports also have a dedicated CD frequency. So with a class D tower, just check the frequency section of any approach plate for the field and look for CD. If it's not there, contact Ground.
 
James331 said:
For uncontrolled,

Ideally, pickup your IFR on the freq on the approach plate for that airport once airborne, if you can take off VFR and get reception before hitting the cloud bases.

If you can't do the above, try the freq on the ground, otherwise you can always call the phone number (great reason for a Bluetooth headset).

Towered airports are easy, just call up clearance delivery or ground.
Click to expand...

And as last option you could call FSS right? Thank you you helped me!!
 
Marcsamo said:
Good day,

I'm almost done with the IR but I'm still confused a bit about how can you get an IFR clearence. I know you can get it from the ATC (clearence control before take off or whatever) and if you are in an uncontrolled field you can try to contact approach from the ground (not sure though). And I also know that you can get it contacting some frequencies displayed in the charts but I'm not sure what's that. And I've told about GCO (Ground Comunication Outlet) and RCO, does anybody has this topic clear and can help me? Thank you!!
Click to expand...

You're almost done with your IR but are asking a question your CFII should have covered with you during training. He/she should be the source for your answer and not on the internet. :mad2:
 
old cfi said:
You're almost done with your IR but are asking a question your CFII should have covered with you during training. He/she should be the source for your answer and not on the internet. :mad2:
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Agree with this 100%! Get with your CFI or one that can explain it. AIM explains it well as should your study materials.
 
old cfi said:
You're almost done with your IR but are asking a question your CFII should have covered with you during training. He/she should be the source for your answer and not on the internet. :mad2:
Click to expand...
And the best way to get it from your CFII is to get it during some actual flights where you file and get a clearance - IMC conditions not required.
 
Marcsamo said:
And as last option you could call FSS right? Thank you you helped me!!
Click to expand...

No worries.

If you cant get anyone on the radio, which is common in many rural airfields, call up Clearance Delivery at 888-766-8267

They'll ask for your n number, where you are, where you're going, which runway and when you'll be ready for take off, after that you get put on hold and they come back with your clearance.
 
James331 said:
No worries.

If you cant get anyone on the radio, which is common in many rural airfields, call up Clearance Delivery at 888-766-8267

They'll ask for your n number, where you are, where you're going, which runway and when you'll be ready for take off, after that you get put on hold and they come back with your clearance.
Click to expand...

In addition, many FBO's now publish a direct phone number to the controlling ATC facility. That works waaayyy better than FSS. I have even seen it posted on the FBO door so after hours flights can see it.
 
RotorDude said:
You imply they typically don't, but in my experience many (if not most) class D airports also have a dedicated CD frequency. So with a class D tower, just check the frequency section of any approach plate for the field and look for CD. If it's not there, contact Ground.
Click to expand...

Where do you fly that you see this regularly? I cant even think of a time I contacted CD from a Class D when the tower was open. I have called CD when the tower was closed before after hours. Far from typical for me.
 
Marcsamo said:
And as last option you could call FSS right? Thank you you helped me!!
Click to expand...

Also the national phone number. Save this in your phone under "IFR Clearance", 1-888-766-8267.

And as I travel, I will query my final controller as to the phone number I can call for that area to reach the regional TRACON desk. Slowly, I'm creating a list of numbers I could use to both acquire my clearances before departure and cancel once I'm on the ground.
 
Bill Watson said:
And the best way to get it from your CFII is to get it during some actual flights where you file and get a clearance - IMC conditions not required.
Click to expand...

Good idea. Go places where you would put "call the phone number" or "use the radio and the GCO or RCO" into play.

Just like getting some real IMC time with your instructor aboard, the more exposure you have to "how it works for real", the more comfort you have when doing it alone.
 
Lots of good advice here that I can't really add to, but I wanted to say that in my experience this story is not unusual. I think lots of students get their tickets and do not really get comfortable with obtaining clearances until after they fly in the system for a bit.

The best advice I ever got was to call FSS and ask on the ground in the warmth and comfort of the FBO :)

Also, most of the time I launch in VMC and get my clearance in the air when departing uncontrolled. Void times are a good thing to avoid if you can. I find departing a controlled field (or one within radio range of CD or approach) way easier IFR.
 
Every flight with my II, I called and filed a flight plan for us in her name. Got to be pretty routine. Oh, yeah, we flew out of an uncontrolled field, so I either called the nearby Class D in the air or the 800 number on the cell.

Had to do both before departure on a few flights after getting the rating. No biggie. But I feel better taking off into the soup, even if it's 800-1000' high, with a clearance and talking to someone on the radio.
 
JasonM said:
Where do you fly that you see this regularly? I cant even think of a time I contacted CD from a Class D when the tower was open. I have called CD when the tower was closed before after hours. Far from typical for me.
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I'll correct myself slightly by saying that many of the class D towered airports have a dedicated frequency box on their approach plates. The frequency in that box may be often, but not always, the same as Ground, but I don't know the ratios. So my procedure in a class D airport is to look up the CD on the approach plate and use that frequency. If it doesn't exist, then I call Ground, but that's rare in my recollection.
When I call that CD frequency, I specifically say, "Podunk Clearance, Bugsmasher N987AB, IFR to ABC", even when it's identical to Ground, because I consider the facility name printed on the plate to be the desired radio identifier.
Here is one like that which I flew recently. And here is a "normal" one with a dedicated/different frequency. And for variety, here is one where the CD frequency is only given when the tower is closed.
Again, not sure of the statistics of these cases, so my rule is to simply look for CD on the plate.
 
Make sure you go to a non towered field with your CFI and learn about IFR ops at those fields. While it's not drastically different and not more difficult than a towered airport, there are a few differences.
 
RotorDude said:
I'll correct myself slightly by saying that many of the class D towered airports have a dedicated frequency box on their approach plates. The frequency in that box may be often, but not always, the same as Ground, but I don't know the ratios. So my procedure in a class D airport is to look up the CD on the approach plate and use that frequency. If it doesn't exist, then I call Ground, but that's rare in my recollection.
When I call that CD frequency, I specifically say, "Podunk Clearance, Bugsmasher N987AB, IFR to ABC", even when it's identical to Ground, because I consider the facility name printed on the plate to be the desired radio identifier.
Here is one like that which I flew recently. And here is a "normal" one with a dedicated/different frequency. And for variety, here is one where the CD frequency is only given when the tower is closed.
Again, not sure of the statistics of these cases, so my rule is to simply look for CD on the plate.
Click to expand...


I am just asking where this would be normal? It is not "Typical" for Class D's in my experience so far. Thinking back,There is one Class D I do contact CD from. That is at KTEB - Teterboro NJ. Pretty much everywhere else, I have not had any issues simply contacting Ground freq. for my IFR clearance. Just saying. My initial post being targeted as incorrect, is actually quite correct in my experience.
 
alfadog said:
KTMB and KFXE, for two
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And that makes it "Typical" of Class D's? I think the kicker is when the class D is inside/bordering a Class B or C airspace. Still not looking worthy of my initial post being discredited. :rolleyes:
 
JasonM said:
And that makes it "Typical" of Class D's? I think the kicker is when the class D is inside/bordering a Class B or C airspace. Still not looking worthy of my initial post being discredited. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to "discredit" anything, I just responding to a post with some first-hand knowledge but if you mean the below, judge for yourself:

"I cant even think of a time I contacted CD from a Class D when the tower was open."

In any event, we're just having a discussion here, man. Why so touchy?
 
JasonM said:
I am just asking where this would be normal? It is not "Typical" for Class D's in my experience so far. Thinking back,There is one Class D I do contact CD from. That is at KTEB - Teterboro NJ. Pretty much everywhere else, I have not had any issues simply contacting Ground freq. for my IFR clearance. Just saying. My initial post being targeted as incorrect, is actually quite correct in my experience.
Click to expand...

All you need to do is to pick 10 class D airports at random, get any approach plate for each, and see if they have a CD box. If they do, the freq may or may not be Ground, but IMO you need to call it as if it's a dedicated CD facility, not Ground, per my above post. See what your ratio is for class D airports that have no CD box on the approach plate, regardless of frequency.

Edit: And yes, if you call for your clearance on Ground (where they show a dedicated CD box but it's the same freq) they'll still take it, figuring you made a small mistake, but my goal is to do things right in the first place.
 
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JasonM said:
And that makes it "Typical" of Class D's? I think the kicker is when the class D is inside/bordering a Class B or C airspace. Still not looking worthy of my initial post being discredited. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Who cares???? It's the exact same procedure. Three quarters of the time it's all one guy anyway.
 
alfadog said:
I'm not trying to "discredit" anything, I just responding to a post with some first-hand knowledge but if you mean the below, judge for yourself:

"I cant even think of a time I contacted CD from a Class D when the tower was open."

In any event, we're just having a discussion here, man. Why so touchy?
Click to expand...

No worries. That is what I am doing as well. :) To me this is not a conversation about if there are CD freq. at Class D's. It is about if that it "Typical" or not. :confused:

RotorDude said:
All you need to do is to pick 10 class D airports at random, get any approach plate for each, and see if they have a CD box. If they do, the freq may or may not be Ground, but IMO you need to call it as if it's a dedicated CD facility, not Ground, per my above post. See what your ratio is for class D airports that have no CD box on the approach plate, regardless of frequency.

Edit: And yes, if you call for your clearance on Ground (where they show a dedicated CD box but it's the same freq) they'll still take it, figuring you made a small mistake, but my goal is to do things right in the first place.
Click to expand...


Go ahead and do that research. I am only stating from my experience so far. Keep in mind, I only have about 400 hours so far flying IFR, so I have not been everywhere in the system. I have not contacted a Ground freq. and referred to them as CD yet, nor have I heard the other guys on freq. refer to them as CD when getting their clearances from Ground freq..
 
JasonM said:
And that makes it "Typical" of Class D's? I think the kicker is when the class D is inside/bordering a Class B or C airspace. Still not looking worthy of my initial post being discredited. :rolleyes:
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Don't worry so much about what might be "typical" of Class Ds. Some have clearance delivery and some don't. Look at the chart. If you make a mistake and call the wrong frequency they will direct you to the correct one.
 
mscard88 said:
Agree with this 100%! Get with your CFI or one that can explain it. AIM explains it well as should your study materials.
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Herein may lie the problem. He flies with the same school that has had several "incidents" including, and I love this one, a student that followed his GPS to a "runway" that was lined with mailboxes and driveways! Yep, a road!
Would like to have been there listening to his explanation.:rofl:
 
Everskyward said:
Don't worry so much about what might be "typical" of Class Ds. Some have clearance delivery and some don't. Look at the chart. If you make a mistake and call the wrong frequency they will direct you to the correct one.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I just look at the chart and call them either "Ground" or Clearance", depending on whether there is a CD box or not. But either way it's no big deal.
 
I'm just a student that's hardly flown a lick, but I just listened to one speaker's thoughts on the topic of picking up an IFR clearance at an uncontrolled airport, with a void time, but without having to feel rushed.

This is a small excerpt from "IFR Clearances Made Easy" regarding uncontrolled airports. There are other techniques, but he says:

I have a technique that I use all the time [to avoid rushing to make a void time at an uncontrolled airport].

Now, it does assume that you have a cell phone, that you're going to have cell phone reception in your airplane at the hold short line, and that you have the number of the Tracon. If you don't have the Tracon number, you can call the National Clearance Delivery number 888-766-8267. They will contact the Tracon or Center and relay the clearance. Many times, they will give you the Tracon phone number so you can contact them directly. You can also find those numbers in the AOPA Airport Directory. Another tip is to ask the controller you are talking to when you approach the airport. Just say that you will be departing IFR and what is a good way to contact the controller.

And the technique is this.

As an example, if I’m at Columbia County airport, I call up the Albany Tracon on my phone. They answer, "This is Albany Tracon." I say: "Good afternoon, sir. This is the pilot of Cardinal 2088 Quebec. I'm IFR to Wilkes-Barre looking for my clearance with a hold for release."

They read back my clearance and end it with, "Hold for release." I say, "Great; thanks. I'll call you from the threshold of Runway 21 in about 20 minutes."

I can now go out to my airplane and take my time. I have the time to slowly, methodically put in the correct route, check it, double-check it. If I'm flying in a glass aircraft, I have the time for that whole system to boot up and be ready to go.

We now taxi to the run-up area, do our run-up, now when we're ready to go, the cell phone comes back out and we call again, direct to the Tracon: “Albany Approach, this is Cardinal 2088 Quebec. We're sitting at the hold short line of Runway 21, we're IFR to Wilkes-Barre looking for our release.”

They come back: “Cardinal 2088 Quebec, is released. Your clearance is void in five-minutes - call back if not off in five minutes.” Now we go with no rushing, the airspace has been blocked off.

All those problems of rushing to make a void time have been avoided and it makes it much safer.
Click to expand...

You can buy the series here: http://pilotworkshop.com/ifrproficiency/
 
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alfadog said:
South FL Class D often has CD freq.
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There are Class D airports with CD frequencies but many dont actually make use of them. KCRQ is a good example; they technically have a clearance delivery frequency but (practically) nobody uses it as we all contact ground.

Its also worth noting that some Class C airports may or may not provide CD services on ground frequencies and clearances are sometimes required for VFR departures.

I flew into KACY (Class C) VFR, taxied to the FBO, paid the landing fee then got back in the plane to leave and was told off by ground for not contacting Clearance Delivery first... After maybe 10 minutes on the ground and telling tower/ground on arrival that it was a quick turn and I was taxing to the FBO solely to pay landing fee before departing.

I've flown into KSAT (Class C) VFR 4 times and each time involved a 10-15 minute stop at the FBO to pick up a passenger... On 2 occasions no clearance was required and I was worked in by tower, the next instance ground instructed me to contact CD and in the last, ground gave me the clearance

Last I've flown into KBUR (Class C) VFR and while I assume they required a clearance be issued since they issued one, it was KBUR ground that issued the clearance for me and they did not have me contact CD.

I've not flown into a Class B airport but considering how busy they are and how busy ground is, I wouldnt even dream of trying to request a clearance from Ground unless it was really late at night and the airport was all but shutdown.

Oddly, my need for clearance out of a class C for VFR seems to be inversely proportional to traffic with light traffic days requiring more clearances than heavy days. Maybe the controllers were just bored but all but 1 of the 4 times I've been required to get a clearance were on days/nights/times when it was pretty dead at the airport. On the 1 of the 2 occasions tower worked me in, it was so busy I burnt 45 minutes with the prop spinning waiting for tower to squeeze me in to the rotation with sufficient wake turbulence avoidance and the 2nd one I was worked in without major delay.

Bottom line, it seems many airports have their own procedures and way of handling it; it sucks but the general rule of thumb I have is to request the clearance from:

IFR:
Clearance Delivery in Bravo/Charlie and ground in Delta and the expected "first" control facility by phone (knowing where you are, what terminal area airspaces are nearby and the last control facility you talked to on arrival is helpful here) for Echo
VFR:
Clearance Delivery in Bravo for VFR.
Monitor ground and either try to get out without a clearance or request it from ground if they aren't busy; request from Clearance Delivery if busy
Tower in Delta; though technically none is needed, tower usually asks for departure plan prior to takeoff approval.
CTAF in Echo; again not required but I usually state my departure intentions on CTAF before takeoff.

It seems to cover all the basis and the worst that happens is you get directed to another frequency or control center, sometimes by a controller who is "bothered" by your inquiry. Oddly, out of the 2 times I've been redirected to CD (once in KSAT and once in KACY), the most "testy" and "bothered" controller was at KACY at a time when there was no other traffic landing, taking off or taxing in the 10-20 minutes I was on the ground. Conversely, on my departure from KBUR, since I was VFR, not anticipating a clearance and rusty on my CRAFT, I had to ask ground to repeat it 3 times before I copied it correctly and the controller didnt seem bothered at all.
 
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Marcsamo said:
And as last option you could call FSS right? Thank you you helped me!!
Click to expand...

I do that before resorting to the cell phone. It's what RCOs and GCOs are for.

They answer right away and you don't have to shout your state at the phone 6 times.
 
I have a technique that I use all the time [to avoid rushing to make a void time at an uncontrolled airport].

Now, it does assume that you have a cell phone, that you're going to have cell phone reception in your airplane at the hold short line, and that you have the number of the Tracon. If you don't have the Tracon number, you can call the National Clearance Delivery number 888-766-8267. They will contact the Tracon or Center and relay the clearance. Many times, they will give you the Tracon phone number so you can contact them directly. You can also find those numbers in the AOPA Airport Directory. Another tip is to ask the controller you are talking to when you approach the airport. Just say that you will be departing IFR and what is a good way to contact the controller.

And the technique is this.

As an example, if I’m at Columbia County airport, I call up the Albany Tracon on my phone. They answer, "This is Albany Tracon." I say: "Good afternoon, sir. This is the pilot of Cardinal 2088 Quebec. I'm IFR to Wilkes-Barre looking for my clearance with a hold for release."

They read back my clearance and end it with, "Hold for release." I say, "Great; thanks. I'll call you from the threshold of Runway 21 in about 20 minutes."

I can now go out to my airplane and take my time. I have the time to slowly, methodically put in the correct route, check it, double-check it. If I'm flying in a glass aircraft, I have the time for that whole system to boot up and be ready to go.

We now taxi to the run-up area, do our run-up, now when we're ready to go, the cell phone comes back out and we call again, direct to the Tracon: “Albany Approach, this is Cardinal 2088 Quebec. We're sitting at the hold short line of Runway 21, we're IFR to Wilkes-Barre looking for our release.”

They come back: “Cardinal 2088 Quebec, is released. Your clearance is void in five-minutes - call back if not off in five minutes.” Now we go with no rushing, the airspace has been blocked off.

All those problems of rushing to make a void time have been avoided and it makes it much safer.



You can buy the series here: http://pilotworkshop.com/ifrproficiency/[/QUOTE]

This is what I do if there is no GCO. I've never called FSS for a clearance. I do know if you call for a FSS clearance you better be ready to go!
 
apr911 said:
There are Class D airports with CD frequencies but many dont actually make use of them. KCRQ is a good example; they technically have a clearance delivery frequency but (practically) nobody uses it as we all contact ground.

...
Click to expand...

Yes, I was unclear. I meant that you actually have to call clearance delivery. At KFXE, everytime I have flown out of KFXE, I have to call CD. At KTMB, where I am based, often it is "ground and clearance delivery combined on 121.7" but on occasion they do have the separate CD running. When they are combined, I would dial up 121.7 but still ask for Tamiami clearance delivery, not Tamiami ground.
 
Marcsamo said:
And as last option you could call FSS right? Thank you you helped me!!
Click to expand...
FSS has a national 800 number for the purpose. You can't always get FSS on the radio on the ground.

As was said earlier in the thread, IFR clearances from non-towered airports can be obtained in a number of ways.

  1. You can always get it by calling the national CD number. You can also get it by calling FSS on the phone (although the national number is generally better since that's all they do; and the FAA might suggest you call them or someone esle).
  2. You can sometimes get it by calling FSS on the radio.
  3. You can sometimes get it by calling an ATC facility directly on the radio. Some can be reached from the ground, either directly* or via an RCO. At some non-towered airports you even have a dedicated CD frequency - check out the AFD listing or approach plate for KFNL north of Denver.
  4. You can sometimes get it by calling the ATC facility on the telephone. I'll mention GCOs but I think they are not being fixed as they break down I've only been at my new home base 3 years now and no one I know of has made it work.

There might be one or two others I haven't come across. Anyone?

[*Some years ago, I called FSS on the telephone for a void time clearance and they said, just call Center on [frequency]. The antenna is close by]
 
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