IFR C150 upgrades [help]

Sam Powell said:
Hi everyone, OP here. Thank you all for the help. I should clarify a few things. Number one is that I am buying and will be using this plane as a time builder for my commercial license hours, and hopefully for my IFR, if I end up upgrading my avionics. I am young for a pilot and have money to upgrade but am trying to be as economical as possible with this decision.
Number two is the question of approaches in my area. While my home airport is a small untowered field, there is a class delta 15 miles north from me that has these approaches: ILS, LOC, LOC/DME, RNAV (GPS), RNAV (RNP), VOR, VOR/DME.
While my training could be done on a single King KX-155 and VOR/GS CDI, I am starting to realize that a GPS unit is probably worth it. Right now I am thinking my best bet is a non-WAAS Garmin 430 and a VOR/GS CDI. The 430 will give me Nav/com/gps without needing more than one system. I could rip out the Apollo GX-65 and have the garmin as my single unit, thus alleviating the need for an audio panel and associated wiring.
I think a single nav/com/gps unit with a good CDI would suit my needs without spending an excessive amount of money, or buying old crappy systems. So with that said, does anyone have any good recommendations for something similar to a 430 that would suit my needs? I know WAAS would be a good thing to have, but I don’t think I can justify the extra cost considering the circumstances.
And as for having a single com unit that could fail, there is risk there but I always have a fully charged handheld radio (with headset adapter) in my flight bag. And I always use ForeFlight paired with a Sentry mini for ADS-B in as backups for the aircraft equipment.
Thank you for all of the help, and fly safe!

Sam
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installing a non-waas 430 is a stupid idea. they are obsolete, not repairable, and getting harder to find on the used market. with the cost of installation almost as much or more as the unit, you will end up paying more for it the first time it fail. and it will, those things are getting over 20 years old now. even the WAAS unit hasnt been made in almost 15 years.

like wise ditch the idea of the kx165, it was a great radio but is dated and parts are not available for it.

find a used sl-30, a new gnc355, and a audio panel and be done with it.
 
I know you want to keep cost down, but aviation, being cheap is not always wise. If you go with a basic nav/com you are limited to ILS and the slowly fading away VOR approaches. And they may have notes requiring DME/ADF. In the end a couple of thousand dollars is worth it in the long run.
 
One point that has not been made about the non-WAAS 430 is that it is not STCed. It will require a field approval to be able to use the GPS for IFR training. That will increase the initial cost substantially, because it will have to be done by a more-expensive avionics shop, many of which would probably not be willing to install it. I wouldn’t oppose a 430W install, because if the unit fails, you can easily slide in an Avidyne 440 if you can’t find a reasonably-priced replacement 430W. If you already have a Nav radio with glideslope, I would highly recommend a GPS175.
 
Just a 430W and CDI, no second radio. Can do GPS and VOR work, don't need to go to the expense of adding in an audio panel. Just that would likely be about the same outlay as doing what your original proposal would cost, if not less. Heck, might be able to do a 530W for that.
 
I cast my vote for a Garmin 355. Gps navigation and a VHF nav/comm in one convenient box. You already have a transponder.

I would not advise anyone to get a 430/530 these days. Those things are over 20yo from general availability and factory support and maintenance is soon to hit zero.

edit: 1998. Nearly 25 yr ago.
 
Rgbeard said:
I cast my vote for a Garmin 355. Gps navigation and a VHF nav/comm in one convenient box. You already have a transponder.

I would not advise anyone to get a 430/530 these days. Those things are over 20yo from general availability and factory support and maintenance is soon to hit zero.

edit: 1998. Nearly 25 yr ago.
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Good suggestion. Only edit would be that a 355 has a com but no nav. You’d still need some sort of Nav com to give you ILS and VOR navigation capability.
 
Could he buy used 650, used CDI and be done?
 
Long time 150 owner and operator. The 150 makes a good vfr time builder. If already equipped for IFR, they make an adequate IFR trainer. Almost all the money spent upgrading a VFR 150 to a minimally or otherwise IFR capable trainer, however, is not going to be recovered when you sell it. I've seen some IFR 150s with avionics that would be at home in a Cirrus or late model Bo but those owners love their 150 and have no plans on selling them because if they were to put them on the market, they'd be crying on how much money they weren't going to get. The 150 doesn't have the useful load, the legs or speed to make a good cross country travelling machine and that's not going to change by equipping it with avionics suitable for one. The market is small for expensive stock 150s with modern avionics.

I'd find an FBO with a well equipped 172 or similar aircraft and do the IR in it. Alternatively, I'd sell the 150 and buy something already equipped for IFR training. I would not upgrade a vfr 150 I was planning on selling in the short term.

The one exception I might consider to what I said above is a 150/150 with long range tanks. The bigger engine makes the 150 a real two place airplane. Some of the bigger engine STCs increase the max gross weight and loading the panel won't be a problem. It's still a 150, speed wise, though.
 
Witmo said:
Long time 150 owner and operator. The 150 makes a good vfr time builder. If already equipped for IFR, they make an adequate IFR trainer. Almost all the money spent upgrading a VFR 150 to a minimally or otherwise IFR capable trainer, however, is not going to be recovered when you sell it. I've seen some IFR 150s with avionics that would be at home in a Cirrus or late model Bo but those owners love their 150 and have no plans on selling them because if they were to put them on the market, they'd be crying on how much money they weren't going to get. The 150 doesn't have the useful load, the legs or speed to make a good cross country travelling machine and that's not going to change by equipping it with avionics suitable for one. The market is small for expensive stock 150s with modern avionics.

I'd find an FBO with a well equipped 172 or similar aircraft and do the IR in it. Alternatively, I'd sell the 150 and buy something already equipped for IFR training. I would not upgrade a vfr 150 I was planning on selling in the short term.

The one exception I might consider to what I said above is a 150/150 with long range tanks. The bigger engine makes the 150 a real two place airplane. Some of the bigger engine STCs increase the max gross weight and loading the panel won't be a problem. It's still a 150, speed wise, though.
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Hi again, OP here. This is the conclusion I am coming to. My FBO has a well equipped 172 that I did my PPL training in, so I'll probably just rent that to get my required IFR time.

My main reason for wanting to upgrade was that it would be an investment that I would get some return on, opposed to the sunk cost of renting a 172. If I put the same amount into renting as I did into installing an IFR panel in the 150, the smarter move would be to upgrade the 150 and at least get some return when I sell the plane. As for selling the plane, my plan for now is to fly it for a few hundred hours and then sell it after I have my commercial license.

My thoughts going into all of this are the same as upgrading the panel: If I want to get 400 hours of SEL time I might as well buy a plane, use it, and then have an investment instead of the sunk cost of renting. Of course there is an operation cost in terms of fuel, maintence, and insurance, but with the price I'm getting on this specific 150 those costs will pretty much be paid for when I sell (if the current market holds), hold any major failure in the plane. My other reason for considering an upgrade is that I'm working in a shop and could do most of the work myself.

At this point I am completely stumped. I'd love to hear thoughts on my plan to buy instead of rent from people with more experience with all of this. Thanks for the help!
Sam
 
Good point. OP, don’t buy this airplane. I can't see how it would ever work for you, be cheaper than renting an IFR plane, etc., especially since you said you were going to sell it after your IFR.

The only way it could make sense would be to get a 150/150, put the GTN and CDI in it, and lease it a club or school.
 
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WDD said:
Good point. OP, don’t buy this airplane. I can't see how it would ever work for you, be cheaper than renting an IFR plane, etc., especially since you said you were going to sell it after your IFR.

The only way it could make sense would be to get a 150/150, put the GTN and CDI in it, and lease it a club or school.
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Everyone I've asked from my CFII to the owner of the FBO has told me that buying this 150 is the right move. Between the price I am paying and the condition it's in (apart from the avionics) it's a hell of a deal. The 150 will have a brand new 0 time engine that is being rebuilt under warranty after I had already made an arrangement with the seller and signed a bill of sale. I essentially got grandfathered into a plane with a brand new engine for the price of one that has 1000 hours. The airframe and paint are great, I got an extensive prebuy/annual by the shop that I now work at and everything is solid. It even has VG's on the wing and vertical stabilizer that brings the stall speed down around 30 knots. Is this the wrong move for someone trying to build hours? IFR aside, just for my commercial hours this seems like the right move And regardless if I end up renting for my IFR or upgrading the 150, the right call in my position seems to be to buy this 150. If not, I'd love to hear opinions on why I should or should not buy/upgrade this 150.
 
Sounds like you've signed a contract to buy. So, at this point
1) For your IFR rating, you need 50 hours X Country as PIC (non student) - you can use your C150 for that.
2) You need to get your log book up to 250 hours for your Commercial ticket - you can use it for that.
3) You'll have to park it for 6 months while you rent another plane to get your IFR rating. You'll be paying 6 months of insurance, ramp fees, etc. while paying to rent another plane - but that's just what you'll have to do.
4) You could still see what the numbers look like between putting in a used GTN 650 and a used CDI vs what you think you could sell it for vs what the cost of renting an IFR plane for 45-50 hours of instrument training flying with a CFII to get your 40 hours of hood/actual IMC time.
 
I still stand by my earlier recommendation (Post #7). Go for it Sam! You won't get many here recommending a Cessna 150, mostly because they are the Rodney Dangerfield of airplanes.
 
You'll want to invest in some basic IFR avionics in your 150, from my perspective.

If you don't, then how do you maintain currency?

If you have the 150 IFR-"legal" then you can at least shoot approaches and fly in the soup to keep your investment in your skills.
 
I would go for it! Sounds like a good solid 150. Just remember…. Don’t trust that IFR 45 minute fuel reserve! In a 150 it might take you 45 minutes to go missed and make it back to the IAF. Lol. Just joking… kinda.
 
WDD said:
Good point. OP, don’t buy this airplane. I can't see how it would ever work for you, be cheaper than renting an IFR plane, etc., especially since you said you were going to sell it after your IFR.

The only way it could make sense would be to get a 150/150, put the GTN and CDI in it, and lease it a club or school.
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I disagree with WDD. If this plane works for you to build time and get your IFR training in, then it would do the same for the guy you sell it to. The 150 is very cheap to fly, and quite cheap to maintain. If you aren’t a big guy, then the 150 with and IFR upgrade makes sense to me. I own a 150 that I have done a full glass and IFR upgrade to. I’m a dealer, so I got discounted equipment, but it’s a fantastic trainer through CFII except 10 hours complex or TAA.
 
Buying a 150, turning it into an IFR trainer and then trying to recoup costs is a looser's game. Costs big money to install boxes. Better to get something already equipped.
 
CT583 said:
Check out these guys. They have an IFR 150 and fly that little guy all over the place.
Even to the Bahamas.

https://youtube.com/channel/UCTZag4YbkphCT1rzU6-RlEw
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This is awesome, thank you!
It’s nice to see an example of a 150 actually being used. Regardless of what avionics I go with I’m just excited to build my hours and get to fly. Hours pass the same regardless if you’re going 160 knots or 90 knots!

Sam
 
Sam Powell said:
This is awesome, thank you!
It’s nice to see an example of a 150 actually being used. Regardless of what avionics I go with I’m just excited to build my hours and get to fly. Hours pass the same regardless if you’re going 160 knots or 90 knots!

Sam
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In theory, you’ll get more hours going the same places! Positive thinking.
 
A non WAAS 430 is unsupported. You are one bad screen away from buying another 30 year old gps.

You would better served by buying a Garmin 175 than and an overhauled King 155.
 
JimNtexas said:
A non WAAS 430 is unsupported. You are one bad screen away from buying another 30 year old gps.

You would better served by buying a Garmin 175 than and an overhauled King 155.
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This is exactly what I’m going to do. After lots of thinking and talking with experts I believe installing a used King KX-155 and a new Garmin GPS 175 is the way to go. I’m going to use a King KI-204 CDI and have a VLOC/GPS switch to alternate the CDI between the KX-155 and GPS175. I’ll pull out the old Apollo GX-65 and replace it with the KX-155 as my com. This way I only have to buy the KX-155, GPS175, KI-204, and associated hardware and antennas, no audio panel needed. My goal is to spend around $8,500 all in. This upgrade will give me the ability to fly ILS approaches and VORs that are needed for my IFR training and checkride, but it will also give me LPV and RNAV ability. I see this as future proofing the plane as well as adding value to an already fantastic Cessna 150.
Thank you to everyone for the input and helping me choose the right avionics. Safe flying and happy tailwinds to you all!

Sam
 
steingar said:
Buying a 150, turning it into an IFR trainer and then trying to recoup costs is a looser's game. Costs big money to install boxes. Better to get something already equipped.
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The next guy who buys the plane from you might feel he same way, so equipping for your needs will likely find someone else who wants to just buy and fly.
 
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