If you can see through a cloud.... is it considered cloud?

WannFly

WannFly

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Say in a hypothetical social distancing world you are tooling around in the sky and see a white puffy cloud, like a baby cloud, you can see the other side of it... it’s a baby stray cloud that got away from its herd .... and you punch through it... did you bust FAR ? Is it even considered a cloud?

Asking for a friend
 
If the visibility inside the cloud is equal or better to VFR minimums, then it's mist, not a cloud, and in my non-expert opinion you would be OK. Otherwise, it would be a violation of visual flight rules.
 
And the trolling begins lol.

Seems to me the point of cloud clearance rules is so if ifr traffic pops out of a cloud, you have time to see & avoid each other. Thus if the cloud is incapable of hiding an airplane it's not a cloud.

Punching babies notwithstanding.
 
Alright I will let my friend know . Good information.
 
kyleb said:
Got a page reference for that? I really don't have time before work this morning to read all 213 pages. ;-)
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I went through it. It defines "types" of clouds from a meteorology standpoint. But it does not address FAR's nor your specific question. If I can restate what I think you're asking, does a transparent cloud constitue IMC conditions?
 
This brings up the question: Who would really know besides the OP's friend anyway? Disclaimer: I am not encouraging flying through any such phenomenon as a see-through cloud.
 
Hang 4 said:
I went through it. It defines "types" of clouds from a meteorology standpoint. But it does not address FAR's nor your specific question. If I can restate what I think you're asking, does a transparent cloud constitue IMC conditions?
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Yeah, it is a wonderful document, but in skimming through the cloud section, I didn't find an answer to the original question. So I was asking if @luvflyin had a page reference that would shed light on the original question. I wasn't gonna read all 213 pages trying to find that answer.
 
The final question...How would you explain it to the investigator?
 
cgrab said:
The final question...How would you explain it to the investigator?
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The atmosphere can range from crystal clear to <100' of visibility depending on moisture, pollution, etc. I think it is realistic to ask at what point does haze or fog or whatever constitute a cloud. The answer has something of an arbitrary nature, but I've never seen it clearly defined. Myself, if I can see through it well enough to maintain VFR visibility, then it isn't a cloud.
 
kyleb said:
Got a page reference for that? I really don't have time before work this morning to read all 213 pages. ;-)
Click to expand...

CHAPTER 13. CLOUDS
13.1 Introduction. A cloud is a visible aggregate of minute water droplets and/or ice particles in the atmosphere above the Earth’s surface.
 
Technically, under VFR, cloud surfing is a no-no. So I simply assume that every cloud surfing flight which has a video on YT is being conduced under IFR.
 
And one of the listed cloud types is Cirrus, which even in the picture included are wispy, see-through type clouds. But they are called clouds.
 
kyleb said:
Yeah, it is a wonderful document, but in skimming through the cloud section, I didn't find an answer to the original question. So I was asking if @luvflyin had a page reference that would shed light on the original question. I wasn't gonna read all 213 pages trying to find that answer.
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There were two original questions. I just found the 'oh fish ul" answer to the last one. Is it a cloud? It is. As far as the first question goes, busting a FAR by flying through it, let the discussion continue.
 
luvflyin said:
CHAPTER 13. CLOUDS
13.1 Introduction. A cloud is a visible aggregate of minute water droplets and/or ice particles in the atmosphere above the Earth’s surface.
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That's where we get into the nit-pickery. Haze would fall under that description. I fly in haze all summer. Practically speaking, we don't look at VFR legal haze as a cloud or clouds.
 
kyleb said:
That's where we get into the nit-pickery. Haze would fall under that description. I fly in haze all summer. Practically speaking, we don't look at VFR legal haze as a cloud or clouds.
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Maybe the FAA should look into refining that definition. Aggregate I think is the key word. Haze is so spread out maybe they don't see it as an 'aggregate.
 
My vote is for a: Localized Area of Reduced Visibility, given that the FAA does not define exactly what is a cloud.
 
luvflyin said:
Maybe the FAA should look into refining that definition. Aggregate I think is the key word. Haze is so spread out maybe they don't see it as an 'aggregate.
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Unfortunately, asking the FAA to make such determinations has occasionally resulted in onerous new restrictions. :eek2:
 
One of my instructors said (insert various references to instructors perpetuating misinformation here) "If you can see through it it is virga and legal to fly through." Again, maintaining VFR visibility minimums for the airspace you are in. According to the dictionary, apparently he was wrong.

vir·ga
/ˈvərɡə/
Learn to pronounce

noun
METEOROLOGY
  1. a mass of streaks of rain appearing to hang under a cloud and evaporating before reaching the ground.
    "the ghostly apparition of virga—an indicator of violent downdrafts"
 
I had a CFI who told me, "if you can see through it, it's not a cloud." Personally, I've always adhered to the more strict meteorological definition. If it was purely a question of visibility, there would be no need for clouds to be mentioned at all in the restrictions, i.e., 3 miles visibility would cover it. The minimums state a specific visibility distance requirement AND a specific distance separation from clouds. Visibility through clouds varies by the angle of the view...it sems possible that, while you may be able to see through a specific cross section of a cloud you're approaching, IFR traffic embedded in that cloud elsewhere could not see you, nor would they have any reason to suspect you would be anywhere near a cloud.

If we're talking about a single tiny thread-like wisp that causes no visibility issues from any direction, avoiding it by thousands of feet may seem to be unnecessarily cautious.
 
cgrab said:
The final question...How would you explain it to the investigator?
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Explain what? I was in VFR conditions and no incident occurred. What is there to explain?

Now if I fly into an actual cloud where all the windows go white, then we all know it's hopeless anyway because you'll be dead within 90 seconds. So I'll be explaining it to St Peter, but not St Dickinson or one of his designees.
 
kyleb said:
That's where we get into the nit-pickery. Haze would fall under that description. I fly in haze all summer. Practically speaking, we don't look at VFR legal haze as a cloud or clouds.
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There's no rule that restricts flying in a cloud. The rule you're thinking about restricts visibility.
 
If a pilot flies through a cloud during a VFR flight and farts, does anyone hear it?
 
luvflyin said:
CHAPTER 13. CLOUDS
13.1 Introduction. A cloud is a visible aggregate of minute water droplets and/or ice particles in the atmosphere above the Earth’s surface.
Click to expand...
All clouds are visible aggregates of minute water droplets. Not all visible aggregates of minute water droplets are clouds.
 
bflynn said:
Now if I fly into an actual cloud where all the windows go white, then we all know it's hopeless anyway because you'll be dead within 90 seconds.
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Has that been updated? I thought I had 178 seconds to live ...:eek:

 
The bigger question, is whether the cloud can see and avoid you.
 
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