If it says Boeing I’m not going...

What do you think other companies are doing?
Following quality assurance practices?

This isn’t me expressing a preference for any manufacturer this is a real disappointment that the public response is that “The policies exist, it just appears inconvenient for the manufacturer to follow them.”
 
Some quality assurance programs simply ensure you have consistent process, but don’t really address if those processes are any good.
 
I never understood the fear of flying... After all everything that goes up comes down again sooner or later ;)
 
Oh, by the way.

This.
Is.
A.
Moronic.
Way.
To.
Write.
I thought it made the point pretty effectively. IMO there are plenty of far more annoying offenses posted almost daily if you're running out of things to complain about.
 
Not to mention the problems with Malasian airlines several years past....
 
Hmm.. Isn't the Renton plant unionized? And isn't one of the stated principles of a union to ensure higher quality work and higher levels of safety than normal non-Union folks?

Hmmm...

Just :stirpot:
 
AF447 taught us nothing terribly bad about Airbus, and everything about incompetent idiots flying for Air France.
I did hear an interesting point recently...the vertical stab, which wouldn’t have come off due to a deep stall, was miles from the rest of the wreckage.

The person from whom I heard it also made some interesting points about the vertical stab in a couple of other accidents. His claim is that Airbus is just better at hiding the truth.:eek:
 
Hmm.. Isn't the Renton plant unionized? And isn't one of the stated principles of a union to ensure higher quality work and higher levels of safety than normal non-Union folks?

Lol. Yeah thats what they are for.
 
I did hear an interesting point recently...the vertical stab, which wouldn’t have come off due to a deep stall, was miles from the rest of the wreckage.

The person from whom I heard it also made some interesting points about the vertical stab in a couple of other accidents. His claim is that Airbus is just better at hiding the truth.:eek:

On the A300 the tail was held on by plastic nuts, that worked, kind of. Not sure they upgraded to hot-glue and duck tape on the later models.
 
Hmm.. Isn't the Renton plant unionized? And isn't one of the stated principles of a union to ensure higher quality work and higher levels of safety than normal non-Union folks?

Hmmm...

Just :stirpot:
Lol. Yeah thats what they are for.
He did say “stated” principles. ;)
I'm pretty sure the people who actually built the plane, whom I presume are unionized, had very little, if anything, to do with the design decisions which are the cause of Boeing's problems. The ones who make such decisions usually aren't unionized.
 
I'm pretty sure the people who actually built the plane, whom I presume are unionized, had very little, if anything, to do with the design decisions which are the cause of Boeing's problems. The ones who make such decisions usually aren't unionized.
We're talking Tanker, not Max. Max, yes, I agree, but on tanker, it's "foreign materials" and trash left behind. That's production line. Management may well tell them to cut corners on inspections (though most unions claim to work to a higher standard, so you would think they would object), but the folks leaving the trash are not likely to be management.
 
I'm pretty sure the people who actually built the plane, whom I presume are unionized, had very little, if anything, to do with the design decisions which are the cause of Boeing's problems. The ones who make such decisions usually aren't unionized.

The article that started this thread is about debris being left in the tankers delivered to the USAF and on how the production side of Boeing only pays lip-service to their QA processes and doesn't actually do the things the process calls out. That's a production floor issue, not top management. And as the tankers are built in Everett, not one of their southern plants, it is a union employee issue.
 
We're talking Tanker, not Max. Max, yes, I agree, but on tanker, it's "foreign materials" and trash left behind. That's production line. Management may well tell them to cut corners on inspections (though most unions claim to work to a higher standard, so you would think they would object), but the folks leaving the trash are not likely to be management.
The article that started this thread is about debris being left in the tankers delivered to the USAF and on how the production side of Boeing only pays lip-service to their QA processes and doesn't actually do the things the process calls out. That's a production floor issue, not top management. And as the tankers are built in Everett, not one of their southern plants, it is a union employee issue.
You are both right, and it is a sad state of affairs. My apologies for the assumption of, as you inferred, was a Max thread.
I agree it is an employee issue. But it is also a management issue- management has to have their heads up their butts to not occasionally walk the floor and see what is happening, and audit the QC. Especially for something that costs as much as a tanker.
 
You are both right, and it is a sad state of affairs. My apologies for the assumption of, as you inferred, was a Max thread.
I agree it is an employee issue. But it is also a management issue- management has to have their heads up their butts to not occasionally walk the floor and see what is happening, and audit the QC. Especially for something that costs as much as a tanker.

You would think. The reality is management has very limited leverage to enforce adherence to policies in that environment.
 
You would think. The reality is management has very limited leverage to enforce adherence to policies in that environment.
It's not simply because of unions. I see similar issues in a non-union shop. Management plays a large role in any workplace. I'm admittedly going out on a limb, but leaving junk in a finished plane suggests a lack of pride in their work, and their working environment. I'll grant that a union can make life much more difficult, I have seen that as well. But delivering a good, clean product takes work from both management and the workers. Between this, and the Max mess, suggests that Boeing isn't a particularly good workplace, sounds like there is rot throughout the organization.
 
The Boeing Quality Control system is quite detailed and complex, and involves a dance involving the machinists, the engineers, and management. The process has worked well over the years, and I know my fellow retirees are aghast at the failures in these particular cases. As similar sorts of complaints have arisen at the (non-union) North Carolina plant, this sounds like the established processes aren't being followed.

I can't give a detailed description of the process, since I never worked an aircraft manufacturing program. I know that in my last 20 years with the company, we worked like heck to keep Boeing QA *out* of the programs....primarily to save costs, and reduce schedule impacts. We were working small satellite development, though, and got the customer to buy-off on our alternate QC approach.

I can't help but thinking of one of rumors I heard, just prior to retirement. This was making the rounds in the Engineering union, so apply salt as required.

Anyway, the story was, when Boeing bid for the KC-46 program, they priced the program using a very low number of senior engineers. Obviously, paying five year's salary to 200 Level 1 engineers is a heck of a lot cheaper than paying it to 200 Level 5s. I don't have the current salary scale, but a 2002 contract on my PC shows the minimum salary for a Level 1 was *half* that of a level 6. The highest-level engineers are actually paid executive-level salaries, with similar perks.

As the story goes, Boeing was going to rely on its first- and second-tier managers to provide the guidance traditionally provided by senior engineering leads. Many managers, of course, came up from the engineering ranks. However, many haven't... they work the minimum time as an engineer, and go into the more-lucrative management track. Also, while engineers are paid a nominal stipend on overtime, many managers aren't paid overtime. More cost savings, at the expense of burned-out managers.

What this meant, of course, is that the engineering workforce lacked experience. That, rather than being mentored and guided by men and women who'd been through these kinds of programs before, the engineers were basically on their own, with managers that were just as clueless. As the KC-46 program got into trouble, Boeing started scrambling to find experienced engineers to rescue it. But, of course, they were all working other, just-as-important programs by then. They tried to throw me into that mess about five years ago...someone at tanker had found out I was an aviation-knowledgeable engineer-pilot who could write. I managed to squirm out.

It's possible that engineering oversight of QA was a casualty of this process. It's possible, too that the SAME process was attempted with the machinists.

And here's the magical thing: Most government programs don't pay for the level of engineering experience. There's a flat rate, and Boeing gets paid that rate whether it's a 25-year veteran technical fellow or a guy who just graduated from engineering school last month. More profit.

And, I think profit is the key thing, here. Good QA is legendarily expensive. You save a buck, somewhere, by reducing QA and you reap a lot of benefits.

If you work at Boeing, you see a lot of yellowed Quality posters on the wall, and maybe twice a year you have some company-mandated Quality Assurance training. But every, SINGLE day, the company message is "Enhance shareholder value": In other words, cut cost, reduce schedule. And QA is anathema to both those factors.

Ron Wanttaja
 
When Boeing is done, the 737 Max will be the safest plane on the planet.
It will have to be because everyone on the planet will be waiting for a chance to pounce on them.
JMHO.
 
I did hear an interesting point recently...the vertical stab, which wouldn’t have come off due to a deep stall, was miles from the rest of the wreckage.

The person from whom I heard it also made some interesting points about the vertical stab in a couple of other accidents. His claim is that Airbus is just better at hiding the truth.:eek:

I'm not big on conspiracy theories. I don't believe for a moment that there's some secret reason for the crash that's being hidden.
 
I've got a good Q & A story. I was buying farm machinery a few years ago from a factory in Fargo. Obviously, I'm in the farm machinery business & our main line is John Deere. This was not a JD factory.

Our assembly crew complained about too many loose bolts from this particular manufacturer. Before we could deliver their machinery to the farmer we literally had to check every bolt for tightness, & there was a ton of them.

I complained to the Pres. of the company & he assured me they had rectified the problem. They would put a mark on each fastener to assure they were tightened. A few months later as I visited the factory I went on to the floor to observe their assembly line. I watch a young guy with a wad of bolts in his hand. He was marking the heads with a magic marker prior to installing them on the machine. I asked him why he was marking the bolts & he said so we know they're tight. I just shook my head & walked away.

As they say "You can't fix stupid".
 
I've got a good Q & A story. I was buying farm machinery a few years ago from a factory in Fargo. Obviously, I'm in the farm machinery business & our main line is John Deere. This was not a JD factory.

Our assembly crew complained about too many loose bolts from this particular manufacturer. Before we could deliver their machinery to the farmer we literally had to check every bolt for tightness, & there was a ton of them.

I complained to the Pres. of the company & he assured me they had rectified the problem. They would put a mark on each fastener to assure they were tightened. A few months later as I visited the factory I went on to the floor to observe their assembly line. I watch a young guy with a wad of bolts in his hand. He was marking the heads with a magic marker prior to installing them on the machine. I asked him why he was marking the bolts & he said so we know they're tight. I just shook my head & walked away.

As they say "You can't fix stupid".


Now imagine if you had continued making deliveries and telling your employees and customers, “Their programs over at Snuffy Farm-All are really top of the line...”

That’s what’s most irritating in the posted article, the flimsy company line that the customer for some reason continues to stick to... Especially when you consider the extra cost in man hours that acceptances by operational mx squadrons will have to spend helping manufacturer “work out the kinks.”

It really makes me a pessimist when the Service will smile and nod while subjecting its employees to extra work to make up for the manufacturing defect. Maybe the USAF should unionize.
 
I'm not big on conspiracy theories. I don't believe for a moment that there's some secret reason for the crash that's being hidden.
I’m not a big conspiracy theorist, either, but I know coverups exist at all levels of industry and government, and I’ve seen enough official accident reports that defy physics that I won’t entirely discount the possibility.
 
When Boeing is done, the 737 Max will be the safest plane on the planet.
It will have to be because everyone on the planet will be waiting for a chance to pounce on them.
JMHO.
Agree. And since I fly almost exclusively Southwest, I guess if it says Boeing, I'm going.
 
Some quality assurance programs simply ensure you have consistent process, but don’t really address if those processes are any good.
It's funny that you say that. Years ago I applied for a technical writing job. In order to get "ISO whatever" certification, the various processes performed at a given plant had to be documented. My job would have been to follow an operator around and document everything he/she did, and write it down. Once everything was written down, they would get the ISO certification. Apparently it didn't have anything to do with whether or not they were performing the processes correctly, the processes just had to be documented in a written form.
 
Apparently it didn't have anything to do with whether or not they were performing the processes correctly, the processes just had to be documented in a written form.
Adjust the process to fit the operator... I've seen it many times!

In my line of work, inventory accuracy is very critical. I once audited a warehouse on their processes. They had a record of 99.9% accuracy, yet the production line would run out of parts. I figured out if the counts were off, one of the warehouse employees would simply move the missing material systematically to the floor. The floor's accuracy improved greatly, and the warehouses decreased significantly when that employee was fired. A lot of people would rather cover things up than fix them.
 
I’d still gladly climb onboard a Boeing plane before that of any other commercial jet manufacturer.

Oh, by the way.

This.
Is.
A.
Moronic.
Way.
To.
Write.

Much. Better. To. Do. It. This. Way.
 
Some quality assurance programs simply ensure you have consistent process, but don’t really address if those processes are any good.

Like ISO 9001? "Do what you say and say what you do." Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, just so long as you do what you say. At least, that's what ISO 9001 looked like when I was involved in a company getting it in the early 1990s. Now, ISO 17025, dealing with test and calibration laboratories is a bit more prescriptive.
 
Like ISO 9001? "Do what you say and say what you do." Doesn't matter if what you say is right or wrong, just so long as you do what you say. At least, that's what ISO 9001 looked like when I was involved in a company getting it in the early 1990s. Now, ISO 17025, dealing with test and calibration laboratories is a bit more prescriptive.
My understanding of ISO 9001 is that so long as the procedure us followed, one can manufacture styrofoam sea anchors or lead life preservers.
 
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