Icon A5 Purchase Contract Details - Just Awful

So the first Icon5 was delivered to EAA. Here is what Jack Pelton, head of the EAA had to say about the contract. (onerous is one of the expressions he used)
 
flightwriter said:
Icon is sticking to its guns so far. A company spokesman told AIN, “We are trying to manage liability, and we’ll control it through these sales contracts, as well as through the overall safety of the aircraft.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-contract-critics-first-deliveries-next-month
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Managing Liability sounds like managing reviews, which does nothing, because
  1. it is passive
  2. it is all after the facts.
Prevention though is a whole different story. This is so Matrix like, where they want to evaluate your flying and then pull the strings to stop you..... LOL. Whoever starts flying it and someone with a Searay or other amphib flying along surpasses them in every aspect, they will be starting to think about it, as it is a dog compared in performance. So sex appeal is the only thing left, except it does not get you anywhere..... LOL Spending 250 plus K does not make sense.

If something does not make sense, then follow da money.... and that is where someone before mentioned that they might be doing this only to P!5S off the first buyers, to buy them out cheap and then when they have all of those first buyers under control, they will simply drop the onerous contract and continue with business as usual selling those first aircraft to people who are willing to pay way more up front to be the first in line. in this case it would be lousy business and who knows what they are up to other than Ikon. Maybe an insider will pop the news somewhere. As a place holder I would put in the hold back contract that if they do drop the contract in the future that they would have to sell it to them for the original price, should they opt out of it for the contract. This way it would hold them liable to the original price they were promised. I think that would be more than fair. It also smells like a class action Law suit, if the disgruntled initial buyers would get together and sue for deception.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Maybe the extra 100K makes it go faster? Ah, nope. Fly farther? Nope. Take off and land shorter? Nope and nope. You can trailer it on trips though! As if I want to tow a plane with me when I go on a trip.
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I dont think trailering is that important for travel. More for winter storage. This is something you would have sitting on a boatlift behind your lakehouse. If it is trailerable, you just need to rent some space in a boat-barn for the winter rather than a full hangar.

The Seamax website shows a folding-wing option. Should fit into a lightweight toyhauler for storage.
 
flightwriter said:
Considering the fine line I would imagine EAA is having to walk on this issue (especially given the timing of the "Gathering of Eagles" A5 auction fundraiser announcement) Pelton's statements are pretty damning.
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The best thing that could happen is that someone would offer $1 and donate it to EAA, just as a demonstration of disagreement. Other option would be that EAA would simply not bring it up for auction and as such take a clear position on what these kind of "onerous controlling" attempts are been seen by the majority. Even better would be if one of the other manufacturers of alternate aircraft would step up and offer their aircraft for auction as an alternative maybe a Searay or a CubCrafter on floats... I'm just thinking out loud. Maybe I should give Jim at Cubcrafters a call. LOL
 
gerhard paasche said:
The best thing that could happen is that someone would offer $1 and donate it to EAA, just as a demonstration of disagreement. Other option would be that EAA would simply not bring it up for auction and as such take a clear position on what these kind of "onerous controlling" attempts are been seen by the majority. Even better would be if one of the other manufacturers of alternate aircraft would step up and offer their aircraft for auction as an alternative maybe a Searay or a CubCrafter on floats... I'm just thinking out loud. Maybe I should give Jim at Cubcrafters a call. LOL
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I think it would be awesome if they just put it straight into their museum and never fly it.
 
Brad Z said:
I'm not aware of any law that requires a manufacturer to support a product.
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Wait - you fly an airplane and you don't know of any law that requires a manufacturer to support their product?

From a business standpoint they're shrinking their customer base. Judging from comments here, they are shrinking it a lot, maybe so much that they can't find 100 people willing to spend 250k on their product. In the end, they are offering terms. I'm not in favor of them, but then I don't have 250k to drop on this. And if I did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't because it's so outside our culture.

But there is no accounting for taste. Someone might like this.
 
bflynn said:
Wait - you fly an airplane and you don't know of any law that requires a manufacturer to support their product?

From a business standpoint they're shrinking their customer base. Judging from comments here, they are shrinking it a lot, maybe so much that they can't find 100 people willing to spend 250k on their product. In the end, they are offering terms. I'm not in favor of them, but then I don't have 250k to drop on this. And if I did, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't because it's so outside our culture.

But there is no accounting for taste. Someone might like this.
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the first 100 customers paid a $30k non refundable deposit for a founders edition A5. i believe icon are using the first 100 to push the sales contract through if buyer pulls out $30k bonus for icon then resell slot win win for icon. there has been posts on icons $100 to $120 million capital and questions on where its gone my question is have they used it all up ?
 
It reminds me of some of the one-sided contracts I've seen on non-union music jobs. My experience with one of those, when I objected to one of the clauses, was that the contractor's husband, who was an attorney, tried to negotiate with me to tweak the contract as little as he could to get me to sign. I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen to Icon's customers. In my case, I just told them that they were free to hire someone else, because the job didn't pay enough to make it worth my while to hire a lawyer. For people with a $30,000 deposit on the line, on the other hand, it might be worthwhile, especially if they band together to share an attorney's fees.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Looks like they're re-considering.

http://www.flyingmag.com/icon-may-revise-customer-agreement

If it was me, my order would have been cancelled and this wouldn't make me re-consider. It's backpedaling. The fact that they thought it would fly in the first place says a lot.
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Palmpilot said:
It reminds me of some of the one-sided contracts I've seen on non-union music jobs. My experience with one of those, when I objected to one of the clauses, was that the contractor's husband, who was an attorney, tried to negotiate with me to tweak the contract as little as he could to get me to sign. I wouldn't be surprised to see that happen to Icon's customers. In my case, I just told them that they were free to hire someone else, because the job didn't pay enough to make it worth my while to hire a lawyer. For people with a $30,000 deposit on the line, on the other hand, it might be worthwhile, especially if they band together to share an attorney's fees.
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hey all i have a fellow SPAA member flying the A5 at their HQ in Vacavile to decide to buy or not and go over the sales contract and getting the A5 to Australia as soon as i get any info i will post has anyone heard much since icon got straffed at sun/fun ?
 
The latest blurb: "Flying the Icon A5 is so easy you can do it in flip-flops."
But only if the legal team approves of the flip-flops.

I see a rash of Icon A5 Flip-flop jokes about to descend from the skies.
 
FastEddieB said:
Strafed? Details?
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hey FastEddie a friend went to sun/fun who is a position holder and was sent the 41pages of how to make potential customers un happy he went there to discuss the contract and got nowhere he is no longer interested in buying. he said that a lot of other buyers were there applying pressure about the contract and trying to get answers to their Q??? for icons 1st time at sun/fun he said it was like they were under attack/strafed.
 
flightwriter said:
ICON appears to have stepped up its efforts recently for coverage in non-aviation press:

Fast Company (Source of the "flip-flops" quote cited above): www.fastcompany.com/3059485/test-flying-the-icon-a5-a-revolutionary-new-plane-for-amateur-pilots

Autoweek (AUTOWEEK?): http://autoweek.com/gallery/drive-reviews/icon-a5

KGO-7 (Story was done during a photo shoot): http://abc7news.com/technology/vacaville-company-creates-lightweight-sport-seaplane/1322287/
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more flashy stuff but who has taken delivery of an A5 they quote deliveries in may ? thanks flightwriter.
 
FastEddieB said:
Got it. Thanks!
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also there is a 2page article in forbes with one paragraph about sun/fun when a icon organized talk was hijacked by everyone with their thoughts and questions about the sales contract. icon talks of possible changes they should do it before OSH 16 as many position holders will be there.
 
On a side note, it seems that fast company (whoever they are) and a photog guy on facebook and Instagram seem to be bought marketing agents for the company. They continually spew propaganda and respost photos from the "NYC event" on how fabulous the A5 is. Don't they realize that buyers aren't that dumb?
 
Farmboy said:
On a side note, it seems that fast company (whoever they are) and a photog guy on facebook and Instagram seem to be bought marketing agents for the company. They continually spew propaganda and respost photos from the "NYC event" on how fabulous the A5 is. Don't they realize that buyers aren't that dumb?
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reporters don't really do any work to report any more, they just regurgitate press releases and info that's spoon-fed from the company or agency. And the newsmakers know it...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...90d984-13a1-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html
 
Farmboy said:
On a side note, it seems that fast company (whoever they are) and a photog guy on facebook and Instagram seem to be bought marketing agents for the company. They continually spew propaganda and respost photos from the "NYC event" on how fabulous the A5 is. Don't they realize that buyers aren't that dumb?
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Fast Company appears to be little more than a blog with delusions of becoming the next Robb Report, but if the photographer you mention is the one I think you're referring to, I would argue that he's just a devout aviation enthusiast who loves taking pictures of sharp-looking aircraft (in that, he's very good at what he does.) Although I'm extremely skeptical of Icon's long-term viability and current business practices, any praise I've seen for Icon on this photographer's feeds seems to stem from this enthusiasm, nothing more. He doesn't have to take pictures of the purchase contract.
 
Glad to see they took out the mandatory cockpit voice recorder.. :) Unfortunate about all of the people they are having to lay off. I certainly hope the layoffs included most of the geniuses who came up with the silly sales contract. Interesting tidbit that most of the initial year deliveries will be to company-affiliated flight schools.
 
Wonder when this "pyramid" scheme is going to end? I believe Icon has made it very apparent that they do not want to sell airplanes, they just want to cash in on the very thought of selling airplanes.

I hope that searay is in the process of setting up dealerships right next the the icon training centers, customers would be able to take something home other than a dream.
 
Exactly right @Acrodustertoo

Lol. With a PR release like that, I wonder how bad it really is in the production line.
- We can't dial in quality or production - quick, layoff employees.

- We are only going to build 20 instead of 175.... Or only 11% of projected...and we will use some or all of these for brand new flight centers we will open. That's sure to keep early deposit holders happy.

Dang... Not the way it was supposed to go.

If Searey is smart (and liquid enough) they will be taking advantage of this target rich environment Icon has created.
 
flightwriter said:
Update - Icon appears to have capitulated on the most controversial parts of its original purchase agreement, but the story now involves layoffs and major production delays announced yesterday.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2016/may/25/icon-slashes-production-lays-off-workers
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fiveoboy01 said:
THAT is sure to be encouraging for investors and potential buyers...:rolleyes:
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Farmboy said:
Exactly right @Acrodustertoo

Lol. With a PR release like that, I wonder how bad it really is in the production line.
- We can't dial in quality or production - quick, layoff employees.

- We are only going to build 20 instead of 175.... Or only 11% of projected...and we will use some or all of these for brand new flight centers we will open. That's sure to keep early deposit holders happy.

Dang... Not the way it was supposed to go.

If Searey is smart (and liquid enough) they will be taking advantage of this target rich environment Icon has created.
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as a position holder i was contacted by icon after the press release of production cutbacks and layoffs so well done icon on that one- more care about image than staff and customers that will decide icons survival -no sales no company simple.the first question of many is why is icon spending on flight centers while laying off staff that should be building aircraft.At the moment i am not putting anymore time into this as it is getting very hard to stay with ICON after so long and no deliveries to real customers i could probably call searey and get a firm delivery in 1 call. enough said thanks POAmerica.
 
Over at Plane & Pilot, Robert Goyer is "skeptical about the prospects" that Icon will survive. "My gut tells me the year’s delay in the program is the beginning of the end. It tells me that I’ve seen this film before and the good guys don’t win, that the design winds up being built by someone else under some similar-sounding name."

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/icon-mess/#
 
If the company goes bankrupt, I will feel sorry for the folks who placed deposits.
 
hey everyone well ICON have changed the purchase contract/agreement and it seems more acceptable now its not good with the production delay and time will tell if this is true and not a disguise for financial troubles. My friend got back from flying the A5 and going over the sales contract he liked flying the A5 so much that he is staying as a customer and I trust his word with over 40years flying every type and owner of a lake buccaneer + Cessna on floats. He flew the A5 at Vacaville nut tree airport ICONs HQ and at lake berryissa nearby he was very impressed with the stall+water performance+landing+flying in general and says its all about the adventure/versatility and enjoyment of flying and with being amphibious with 100hp the A5 was never about speed and distance its all about fun flying so whats wrong with that ?
 
Old Geek said:
Nothing. Price and delivery might be a whole nuther thing though.
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yes I get you but price is up to the individual buyer however delivery is definitely a problem the young eagles are still waiting maybe they take delivery this OSH 16. I still don't get the flight centers come fly a plane we cant build and they will be at OSH trying to get more deposits/sales why? if ever near Vacaville can you spy for me if ICON exist or is this an area 51 thing ?
 
Price, meh, it's a new airplane, and a rather polished one, not a fat ultralight, I look at it under the same light as a carbon cub.

That said, the best thing that could happen to the A5 would be if the company sold out to Cessna, Piper or Cirrus, actually I think cirrus would be a great match for it, both construction style and demographic wise.

Personally with all this drama, I wouldn't want to have to rely on icon for parts and support down the road, when it looks like the future of the company is under a major question mark.
 
Well they are right down the road from me, but still, for the price...
 
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