Icon A5 Dunked...

FastEddieB said:
From ICON:

In the coming days, you may hear about a mishap involving an A5 that occurred over the weekend in South Florida. I wanted to reach out so you'd hear the facts directly from us.

During flight operations of two A5s down in Miami, Florida, this Saturday, 1 April (no joke), one of the A5s experienced an extremely hard landing that resulted in hull damage that caused the aircraft to take on water. Both the pilot and passenger were uninjured. While the aircraft subsequently submerged up to the wings, it remained afloat and was towed approximately eight miles to a marina where it was loaded onto an A5 trailer and transported back to ICON. The situation is still under thorough review by ICON, but all initial information suggests pilot error.

As you might imagine, towing a partially submerged A5 into the closest marina attracted a lot of attention for many reasons. Attached is one of the photos that was taken. I'm guessing this will be as painful for you to look at as it was for me. After more than 3,500 A5 flight hours in 20+ aircraft over many years, including an extensive development program, this is the first situation like this we've experienced.
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Oh shhhhh! The salesman is about to tell me the "facts" about one of their products they got some unhappy attention lol



Personally I'm surprised there were zero injuries from a landing so hard it caused a sinkable hull breach

Think I'll be waiting for the story from the NTSB and the pilots who were actually in the plane.



Again, I always liked the A5s design, but the company seems to be for crap.
 
I have always been critical of just about EVERYTHING Icon did and the manner in which they did it.

What has always been a mystery to me was where was and maybe still IS all that money coming from ????

Compare Icon's design cost to a Searey which essentially does the same mission for tens of thousands LESS !!!

Icon hired Scaled Composites (Burt Rutan's old company) to design the A5. Two things wrong with this - one, SC has NEVER built an amphibian and two they're only about the MOST EXPENSIVE firm you can think of to share this learning curve with !!! Hell, I would have hired a production guy away from Searey for MILLIONS less. They could have called Paul Fournier who was Lake Amphibian's chief aero engineer or Harry Shannon who runs the best amphib shop in the country down in Bartow Florida. Hell, Paul would have probably done it for free for that matter.

At OSH 2008 Icon rented a venue that two years earlier had been used to premier the Cessna Mustang Jet ! How much did that cost and was it really necessary ? They did so again in subsequent years too. They also went out of their way to market the design at non aviation venues such as car and boat shows all the time touting how since its an LSA its ONLY gonna take 20 hours to learn to fly it - yeah right !

Then for a time (and maybe still I don't know) the Icon KNUCKLEHEADS decide to open their delivery and training facility in a far off corner of Northern California ! It's over a two hour drive from ANY major airport with few hotels around and nothing to do unless you're a granola head and like to watch trees grow. What's that training environment gonna be like for year round usage ????

If you're gonna market amphibious aircraft you put your G*d damned training center in Orlando Florida. It's right next to an international airport and its got YEAR ROUND access to numerous lakes AND ocean landing sites all a short distance away. Plus, plus, plus....... for the non aviation family members you've got Walt Disney World, Universal Studios, SeaWorld and hotels out the wazoo !!!! Yeah, there's bugs and humidity but you're in an aircraft you can fly around in with the windows open so get over it !!!!!

I could go on and on but it's not good for my blood pressure.
 
ChemGuy said:
These yahoo marketing guys like to whip up some 3D renderings and videos, take a bunch of deposits (monies gotta come from somewhere to actually build it) and then, maybe (rarely?), deliver a plane that might be 1/2 as good as the original spec sheet.
Icon is one of these types. Thats why some of us hate on them, among other reasons.
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Wait. So you're telling me that Raptor won't be a success?? :confused:

Some of these companies are just so grossly removed from reality. At least an Icon in theory can actually exist.

Raptor has no chance. I wish they did. Heck, I'd plunk down $1m for an aircraft with the Raptor specs. But, alas, no chance.
 
Art VanDelay said:
I have always been critical of just about EVERYTHING Icon did and the manner in which they did it.

What has always been a mystery to me was where was and maybe still IS all that money coming from ????

Compare Icon's design cost to a Searey which essentially does the same mission for tens of thousands LESS !!!

Icon hired Scaled Composites (Burt Rutan's old company) to design the A5. Two things wrong with this - one, SC has NEVER built an amphibian and two they're only about the MOST EXPENSIVE firm you can think of to share this learning curve with !!! Hell, I would have hired a production guy away from Searey for MILLIONS less. They could have called Paul Fournier who was Lake Amphibian's chief aero engineer or Harry Shannon who runs the best amphib shop in the country down in Bartow Florida. Hell, Paul would have probably done it for free for that matter.

At OSH 2008 Icon rented a venue that two years earlier had been used to premier the Cessna Mustang Jet ! How much did that cost and was it really necessary ? They did so again in subsequent years too. They also went out of their way to market the design at non aviation venues such as car and boat shows all the time touting how since its an LSA its ONLY gonna take 20 hours to learn to fly it - yeah right !

Then for a time (and maybe still I don't know) the Icon KNUCKLEHEADS decide to open their delivery and training facility in a far off corner of Northern California ! It's over a two hour drive from ANY major airport with few hotels around and nothing to do unless you're a granola head and like to watch trees grow. What's that training environment gonna be like for year round usage ????

If you're gonna market amphibious aircraft you put your G*d damned training center in Orlando Florida. It's right next to an international airport and its got YEAR ROUND access to numerous lakes AND ocean landing sites all a short distance away. Plus, plus, plus....... for the non aviation family members you've got Walt Disney World, Universal Studios, SeaWorld and hotels out the wazoo !!!! Yeah, there's bugs and humidity but you're in an aircraft you can fly around in with the windows open so get over it !!!!!

I could go on and on but it's not good for my blood pressure.
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Agreed 100%

Except the searey comparison,

This looks like something a highschool shop call built
1264512.jpg


Vs
icon-a5-2-xl.jpg


To me it looks like more money, and the folks who have the money to spend don't want the home built ultralight look, or rather their wives won't tolerate it.


But yeah, everything else is 100% spot on
 
Art VanDelay said:
I have always been critical of just about EVERYTHING Icon did and the manner in which they did it.

What has always been a mystery to me was where was and maybe still IS all that money coming from ????

Compare Icon's design cost to a Searey which essentially does the same mission for tens of thousands LESS !!!

Icon hired Scaled Composites (Burt Rutan's old company) to design the A5. Two things wrong with this - one, SC has NEVER built an amphibian and two they're only about the MOST EXPENSIVE firm you can think of to share this learning curve with !!! Hell, I would have hired a production guy away from Searey for MILLIONS less. They could have called Paul Fournier who was Lake Amphibian's chief aero engineer or Harry Shannon who runs the best amphib shop in the country down in Bartow Florida. Hell, Paul would have probably done it for free for that matter.

At OSH 2008 Icon rented a venue that two years earlier had been used to premier the Cessna Mustang Jet ! How much did that cost and was it really necessary ? They did so again in subsequent years too. They also went out of their way to market the design at non aviation venues such as car and boat shows all the time touting how since its an LSA its ONLY gonna take 20 hours to learn to fly it - yeah right !

Then for a time (and maybe still I don't know) the Icon KNUCKLEHEADS decide to open their delivery and training facility in a far off corner of Northern California ! It's over a two hour drive from ANY major airport with few hotels around and nothing to do unless you're a granola head and like to watch trees grow. What's that training environment gonna be like for year round usage ????

If you're gonna market amphibious aircraft you put your G*d damned training center in Orlando Florida. It's right next to an international airport and its got YEAR ROUND access to numerous lakes AND ocean landing sites all a short distance away. Plus, plus, plus....... for the non aviation family members you've got Walt Disney World, Universal Studios, SeaWorld and hotels out the wazoo !!!! Yeah, there's bugs and humidity but you're in an aircraft you can fly around in with the windows open so get over it !!!!!

I could go on and on but it's not good for my blood pressure.
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Agreed on all counts! Paul Furnee is a fantastic guy, I trained with him for my CSES in a Buccaneer. I really think people are going to get hurt in these things because of the mentality passed down from the manufacturer. It's a lot easier to frig up on the water than most people realize.
 
Art VanDelay said:
I have always been critical of just about EVERYTHING Icon did and the manner in which they did it.
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Aww c'mon now. Everyone liked the booth babe "talent" they hired to stand in the giant booth every year that knew f***-all about the product or anything about aircraft for that matter... :)
 
Acrodustertoo said:
Actually, I am building one from scratch as we speak and yes I am doing much of the design work myself. So put that in your pipe.

I have no issue with someone putting money on a plane, I FO have an issue with a company screwing their customers twice over by making them sign their rights away and then not delivering aircraft as promised.
What is your opinion of ponzi schemes?
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"making them sign" Who makes anyone do anything? You must believe people are too stupid to judge for themselves? Is the Icon certified? Is yours? Is Icon certified for mass production? Is yours? Just asking.....

This is nothing more than Cirrus hating take two. Plastic airplane, stupid pilots, marketing to people who have more money than brains... blah blah blah
 
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mirage00 said:
"making them sign" Who makes anyone do anything? You must believe people are too stupid to judge for themselves? Is the Icon certified? Is yours? Is Icon certified for mass production? Is yours? Just asking.....

This is nothing more than Cirrus hating take two. Plastic airplane, stupid pilots, marketing to people who have more money than brains... blah blah blah
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Yes, you are forced to sign their contract if you want your new toy that you already put a deposite on! Unlike their ghost plane, I can do whatever the hell i want to to it. I don't have to get corporate on the phone to change out the cup holder, i don't have to pay corporate a chunk of money when i decide to sell it but only if they agree to let me sell it. You can try to hold on to them all you want but if you cannot see the large steaming pile of BS that is the ICON brand setting new record for how to screw you customers, then by all means run as fast as you can and get you one of those new shiny toys! That is IF they ever allow you to purchase on and IF they ever build enough for you to join their super special club.

Have a nice day!
 
I watched this video about a week ago. It left me wondering how they hadn't sunk one yet. Right around the 39 minute mark the demo pilot skips it off the lake during a landing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
mirage00 said:
This is nothing more than Cirrus hating take two. Plastic airplane, stupid pilots, marketing to people who have more money than brains... blah blah blah
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Not really the same. Cirrus has an actual product line with real customers and thousands of planes sold and operates out of revenue cash flow. ICON over the past ten years is still not producing planes and likely has very few customers left waiting to get one and is still running on venture capital. Yes, both are made from the same materials and have a BRS chute but that's where the similarities end.
 
citizen5000 said:
Not really the same. Cirrus has an actual product line with real customers and thousands of planes sold and operates out of revenue cash flow. ICON over the past ten years is still not producing planes and likely has very few customers left waiting to get one and is still running on venture capital. Yes, both are made from the same materials and have a BRS chute but that's where the similarities end.
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Reasons for the hating are the same...
 
Icon.png

Another bad day for Icon:

A small plane crashed Monday morning along the shore of Lake Berryessa in Napa County, according to the FAA.


The single-engine Icon A5 went down sometime before 9:30 a.m. near Pleasure Point on the south end of the lake near Wragg Canyon.

The Federal Aviation Administration sent an investigator to the crash scene. Shortly before noon, the FAA said it had completed its preliminary investigation and cleared the bodies for removal.
 
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Ouch. Rest in piece to those onboard. I think the Icons have a cool design and as discussed in other threads any effort to bring energy into GA is welcome. But what bothers memost about Icon, beyond the insane EULA, is their marketing. It's just reckless to advertise these as low level flying stunt toys. Pilots are taught altitude is money and water landings pose a unique challenge requiring specific and careful training. Icons are being marketed like some kind of Silicon Valley-I'm-invincible-drone company
 
mirage00 said:
Reasons for the hating are the same...
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I don't think they are, I like Cirrus, Mooney, Cessna, etc., I appreciate what they each bring to GA both new pilots on a budget and those without. Icon isn't building a comfortable and fast cross country machine, they're making the equivalent of jet skis and dirt bikes and I'm not sure the image they're cultivating helps GA. I know I'm no longer on the Icon train..
 
Seems like they were too low in a box canyon, warm day, low powered....?

The NTSB preliminary report included details from the eyewitness account indicating that the aircraft was flying slowly at about 50 feet over the water where it entered a steep, narrow canyon. The aircraft was then observed to increase power, pitch up, and enter a left turn in the canyon before it hit the side of the lake bank.

“We’re unsure why the plane flew into such a narrow canyon that had no outlet,” said Shane Sullivan, ICON’s Director of Flight. “We’re deeply saddened and fully committed to learning whatever we can from this tragic situation. Jon and Cagri were part of the ICON family.”
 
PS:
I flew to OSH the first time they were displayed at the entrance and Dick Rutan was there to promote it. A buddy was there that took twice as long to get there in his Osprey. He says he was underpowered for the weight with an O-320 and 160 HP. This thing grosses 50 pounds less and has 60 less HP?
How can that be remotely a good thing.....?
 
100 hp should result in decent performance in a Light Sport airplane, even one allowed to fly a bit over the normal 1,320 lb max gross.

But my Sky Arrow way underperforms other Light Sports with the same engine. My working hypothesis is that the thrust produced is compromised by the disturbed air the prop has to deal with. If true, that would be the case for the Icon as well.

On the plus side, its nice to have a view unobstructed by a spinning prop, videos that don't have to deal with the prop and virtually no chance of a prop strike!
 
Goofy said:
...“We’re unsure why the plane flew into such a narrow canyon that had no outlet,” said Shane Sullivan, ICON’s Director of Flight....
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A robotic pilot wouldn't have done that. ;)
 
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