I see now why lots of planes have old avionics

Challenged

Challenged

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Challenged
So I've been reaching out to get quotes on upgrading the avionics in my plane and I just received the first one today: $38,000, not including tax; doesn't even include an auto-pilot :(
 
What and why are you upgrading?
 
Now you know why new airplanes cost so much. Labor rates and parts costs for old airplanes are the same as they are for new.
 
I've mostly decided to keep my current plane, so I thought I'd "make it my own" by painting it, etc... Now I'm thinking that I'll "make it my own" by getting an iLevil BOM and mount my tablet in a new location. Current avionics are KX170, KX155, Apollo GX 50. The quote is for basically doing ADS-B, GNS650 and new secondary NAV/Comm.
 
Challenged said:
The quote is for basically doing ADS-B, GNS650 and new secondary NAV/Comm.
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:eek::eek::eek:
I just got quotes for paint and I thought that was bad. Had no idea my panel upgrade was going to be THAT scary! Going to need a good rethink on what I NEED vs want.
 
Challenged said:
I've mostly decided to keep my current plane, so I thought I'd "make it my own" by painting it, etc... Now I'm thinking that I'll "make it my own" by getting an iLevil BOM and mount my tablet in a new location. Current avionics are KX170, KX155, Apollo GX 50. The quote is for basically doing ADS-B, GNS650 and new secondary NAV/Comm.
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Is this a IMC ship?

The best "update" for most of the VFR fleet IMO would actually be removing avionics and simplifying things and removing weight.
 
Part of the reason is I want to start flying IFR, which is why I'd also like an auto-pilot as well.
 
Frankly, that’s why I went new S-LSA. After figuring in all the upgrades I want on a used aircraft, not to mention just fixing the inevitable squawk list after purchase it, was a no brainer. Also, my mission has changed, I don’t need to get anywhere fast and wont need to fly IFR. It’s all about retirement, flying ther grandkids and a few cross country’s now and then.

It’s what worked for me.
 
Challenged said:
I've mostly decided to keep my current plane, so I thought I'd "make it my own" by painting it, etc... Now I'm thinking that I'll "make it my own" by getting an iLevil BOM and mount my tablet in a new location. Current avionics are KX170, KX155, Apollo GX 50. The quote is for basically doing ADS-B, GNS650 and new secondary NAV/Comm.
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I assume you meant a GTN650. That is an absurd quote for a GTN650/GTX345/GTR225 unless you have some other combo than that in mind. That price is almost double what it should be. You need to get some other quotes for comparison. I just updated my radio stack last summer and I doubt the economy in Louisiana is that different than GA & SC. If you were in California or the northeast, I would expect installs to run a bit higher, but that sounds crazy high for the southeast.
 
One mistake I made in my previous post is the GTR225 is COMM only, you said a NAV/COMM, Still, 38K seems crazy expensive.

Also, I live in Georgia but got my avionics installed in South Carolina. I didn't have to pay any sales tax since I was out of state. That is quite a savings when your talking about a purchase of this size.
 
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38K? Man, I need to get into avionics.

What certificate do you need?
 
38K is ridiculous. Close to double what it should be for what you list. Get additional quotes.
 
C-1 PILOT said:
Frankly, that’s why I went new S-LSA. After figuring in all the upgrades I want on a used aircraft, not to mention just fixing the inevitable squawk list after purchase it, was a no brainer. Also, my mission has changed, I don’t need to get anywhere fast and wont need to fly IFR. It’s all about retirement, flying ther grandkids and a few cross country’s now and then.

It’s what worked for me.
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So which S-LSA did you go with?
 
As has been said many times, you can buy more plane than you can build. If you already have an airplane that you love and will keep for many years, spend the money. Otherwise, look for the plane with the panel you want. Much cheaper that way.
 
I was about to post exactly what Steingar said; if an airplane change is at all possible, it's the cheapest way to get upgrades. Let someone else buy them. There are always people putting scads of money into refurbing airplanes. They pay 1.00$ for each upgrade but only get $0.50 back when they sell it (to you).
 
I had a a quote to change out my King KLN90B IFR/GPS, KX155 Nav/Com and VOR head, and KT76A xpdr for a Garmin 650, Garmin VOR head, and Garmin ADS-B xpdr for 25k.
 
After doing my transponder upgrade my self I can see why avionics shops charge so much. It is not fun especially when you try to mix and match new and old avionics.
 
Grum.Man said:
After doing my transponder upgrade my self I can see why avionics shops charge so much. It is not fun especially when you try to mix and match new and old avionics.
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It may not be “fun” but in my limited experience it takes no where near the quoted “hours” to do most of the work. Avionics guys must be former highway department workers.

I was quoted 20+ hours to move my vacuum AI to the TC hole to make room for a G5 in the AI position. Having very little Avionics experience I spent about 5-6 hours and had my mechanic sign off the change. If I did it for a living it would have been considerably less than that. Now granted I worked. Yeah, crawled up in there and worked. When I crawled out it was to get something or do something. It was not to drink a Coke or smoke a cigarette with the meter running.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
:eek::eek::eek:
I just got quotes for paint and I thought that was bad. Had no idea my panel upgrade was going to be THAT scary! Going to need a good rethink on what I NEED vs want.
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These days those of us flying ancient aluminum can easily exceed the value of the entire airplane on a "dream" panel full of goodies.

The worst part is much of it has a supported lifespan considerably less than the 30+ year old King avionics we are tossing out. :(
 
As others have noted, $38k is absolutely obscene for installing those three radios. $20-22k is probably about right. The quote you got is from a shop that either doesn't want the work or caters to the kerosene burning crowd (or both).

If you're handy, consider doing your own install work with an A&P/IA overseeing.
 
Dual G5 (with STC, GMU & GAD29), GTN-650, GTX-345, SSD120-RS232 Encoder, GA35 GPS antenna, GNC-255 Nav/Com is about $24k from Aircraft Spruce.
 
bnt83 said:
Dual G5 (with STC, GMU & GAD29), GTN-650, GTX-345, SSD120-RS232 Encoder, GA35 GPS antenna, GNC-255 Nav/Com is about $24k from Aircraft Spruce.
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Plus misc items, plus labor. A lot of money, but that equipment there does amazing things. Love the GPSS!
 
It's easy to see why planes with properly installed new mainstream avionics (Garmin) sell for much more. I did a mild upgrade to my plane; GNS430 to 430W, GTX-345 ADS-B Transponder, Garmin Alt encoder, FlightStream 210, PS Engineering 450A Audio panel, and removal of 25 pounds of crap (ADF, etc), Whelen LED Landing & Taxi Lights. Cost me $16,200.
 
MickYoumans said:
I assume you meant a GTN650. That is an absurd quote for a GTN650/GTX345/GTR225 unless you have some other combo than that in mind. That price is almost double what it should be. You need to get some other quotes for comparison. I just updated my radio stack last summer and I doubt the economy in Louisiana is that different than GA & SC. If you were in California or the northeast, I would expect installs to run a bit higher, but that sounds crazy high for the southeast.
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This.

arkvet said:
38K is ridiculous. Close to double what it should be for what you list. Get additional quotes.
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And this.

bnt83 said:
Dual G5 (with STC, GMU & GAD29), GTN-650, GTX-345, SSD120-RS232 Encoder, GA35 GPS antenna, GNC-255 Nav/Com is about $24k from Aircraft Spruce.
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And the G5s aren’t necessary for IFR, and if he already has a blind encoder that works no need to do the SSD120, and then he’ll need an CDI from Midcontinent (cheaper and the same as the Garmin, since they’re making them for Garmin). That’ll get that quote below $20,000 for the parts.
 
denverpilot said:
This.



And this.



And the G5s aren’t necessary for IFR, and if he already has a blind encoder that works no need to do the SSD120, and then he’ll need an CDI from Midcontinent (cheaper and the same as the Garmin, since they’re making them for Garmin). That’ll get that quote below $20,000 for the parts.
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Understood but he had his sights on the GFC500 so the G5s will need to be there anyway.

I'd have a hard time paying for a new CDI around $2k when the G5HSI kits is around $3k.
 
Baron62 said:
Plus misc items, plus labor. A lot of money, but that equipment there does amazing things. Love the GPSS!
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I did forget a CDI for the GNC255. A new CDI is around $2500 I think. Antenna splitters and coax aren't too expensive. So around $26k for equipment

I would guess $10k or more in labor.

Add a GFC-500 with optional pitch trim.

~$11k in hardware and $7k in labor.
 
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Aircraft Spruce is, of course, showing basically full-retail prices. Many avionics shops will sell below list price, especially on the higher-priced units.
 
bradg33 said:
Aircraft Spruce is, of course, showing basically full-retail prices. Many avionics shops will sell below list price, especially on the higher-priced units.
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I like to think of them as car dealers, there are many tricks for them to shift numbers around.
 
bnt83 said:
I like to think of them as car dealers, there are many tricks for them to shift numbers around.
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Sure, but like with car dealers, it's pretty easy to ferret out number manipulation by getting several quotes.
 
arkvet said:
It may not be “fun” but in my limited experience it takes no where near the quoted “hours” to do most of the work. Avionics guys must be former highway department workers.

I was quoted 20+ hours to move my vacuum AI to the TC hole to make room for a G5 in the AI position. Having very little Avionics experience I spent about 5-6 hours and had my mechanic sign off the change. If I did it for a living it would have been considerably less than that. Now granted I worked. Yeah, crawled up in there and worked. When I crawled out it was to get something or do something. It was not to drink a Coke or smoke a cigarette with the meter running.
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20 hours for a steam gauge repo is criminal. i find it hard to retain good faith with a shop that pulls that crap on me. talk about losing a major install because youre rent seeking on me on the small stuff.

they pull that stuff a lot on insurance work. seen it from my ap as well. the difference is that if he were to pull it on me then we would part ways. still doesnt change the fact he does it to the insurance, and im sure the upsell also happens on his turbine customers (feeder airplanes for a cargo outfit with a certain color on the tail). billable hours inflation is what appears to make this sector of aviation run. it is certainly why certified recreational aviation is a poor ROI proposition for many. thats one instance where im more than happy to go toe to toe with mechanics regarding pilots being cheap. if calling people out on their rent seeking makes me cheap, bring it on.
 
hindsight2020 said:
20 hours for a steam gauge repo is criminal. i find it hard to retain good faith with a shop that pulls that crap on me. talk about losing a major install because youre rent seeking on me on the small stuff.

they pull that stuff a lot on insurance work. seen it from my ap as well. the difference is that if he were to pull it on me then we would part ways. still doesnt change the fact he does it to the insurance, and im sure the upsell also happens on his turbine customers (feeder airplanes for a cargo outfit with a certain color on the tail). billable hours inflation is what appears to make this sector of aviation run. it is certainly why certified recreational aviation is a poor ROI proposition for many. thats one instance where im more than happy to go toe to toe with mechanics regarding pilots being cheap. if calling people out on their rent seeking makes me cheap, bring it on.
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I don't normally call out a shop for over quoting because I don't have any way of gauging just how much labor should be involved. I will call it out in the instance above because I actually did the work and can compare. I just don't get it. By far the most difficult part of the modification was having to cut the panel to fit the "octoganal" AI. The existing T/C hole was round of course. Had the AI been round it would have been a 3 hour job at most.

This is the same shop that has done 25AMU+ work for me over the past couple years. I have determined they do well with new work / installs but have no desire to mess with moving old stuff around.
 
I wish that avionics prices for certified aircraft was more in line with what you can get with an experimental. Take my VFR Beech Sport. If I want a G5 it cost me around $2200. Same unit (no, with more features) experimental is around $1200. I sort of solved it with a Dynon D2 on my panel for $1000. No FAA, no A&P.
 
Cruzinchris said:
I wish that avionics prices for certified aircraft was more in line with what you can get with an experimental. Take my VFR Beech Sport. If I want a G5 it cost me around $2200. Same unit (no, with more features) experimental is around $1200. I sort of solved it with a Dynon D2 on my panel for $1000. No FAA, no A&P.
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Indeed. But you have a VFR ship, you can solve that for $0. It's when you're gonna be using this thing for IFR that the pricing takes off into the bozosphere of gratuitous idiocy.
 
The plane was IFR on occasion. Its got a 300XL and KNS80. One of the problems now is both AH and DG need replacement/rebuild. I just balk at paying for that when I know a G5 or equivalent is in my future. Oh, ADS compliance too!$!$ I might just continue with my present flight ops of sightseeing VFR in uncontrolled airspace and relax.
 
I recently bought a GTN750, GNC255, GMA350c, ST901 (GPSS), MidConrinent CDI, and new metal panel. All that gear was under 38K installed.
 
I recently purchased an Arrow II. I think that with a little planning avionics upgrades do not have to be too painful. I looked specifically for installed avionics that could be user upgraded. Meaning a GNS430 and a Garmin 340 audio panel already installed. For a dollar delta of $6K and less than an hour of work, I have a new Avidyne IFD440 and a PSE8000BT audio panel. Never went to the avionics shop. My A&P signed the logbook. Knowing that a low cost AP was coming I avoided any aircraft with an S-tec AP saving a bunch. So, in the future, adding a TruTrak AP and a GDL 82 ADS-B and installing them myself with the A&P signoff adds $7K. For $13K I will be able to fly coupled LPV approaches in any airspace while listening to crisp stereophonic music. Because the plane did not already have WAAS GPS the aircraft purchase price was less and there were fewer interested parties to compete with. It is not a 'dream panel', but it will serve my needs for quite some time. I may get a G5 AH sometime later but maybe not. The TruTrak has a built-in AHRS and so does my Stratus 2S.
 
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