I just don't get it...

[Tarheelpilot]

HAAA .... never have and never will look to government to solve my problems

But if I am seriously ill I do look to the medical system for help. As it is, our clinics and hospitals are at max capacity

2 months ago I broke a finger and (over the phone) my doctor told me how to make a homemade splint (it worked)

Where do you live? I have close friend in ICU with covid up in Michigan. Only three covid cases and less than 50% of beds occupied.

it may have been they just didn’t want you in the hospital.

 

[Morgan3820]

HAAA .... never have and never will look to government to solve my problems

But if I am seriously ill I do look to the medical system for help. As it is, our clinics and hospitals are at max capacity

2 months ago I broke a finger and (over the phone) my doctor told me how to make a homemade splint (it worked)

Did he split the fee?

 

[jsstevens]

[snip] As it is, our clinics and hospitals are at max capacity[snip]

That is a very broad statement. Where? I've heard some news stories about the midwest and early on (March/April) New York City was overwhelmed.

Current figures for my county (Seminole County, FL)are ~11% ICU bed availability. Next county over (Orange County) are ~33% available. (Source:https://www.covidcaremap.org/maps/us-healthcare-system-capacity/#5.5/29.401/-84.773)

There's lots of the US that have plenty of capacity. (And to be accurate, there are some that do not!)

 

[Morgan3820]

Health workers at a 14-bed hospital in North Dakota are struggling to keep friends' family members alive, as rates of new Covid-19 infections soar in the US heartland's tight-knit communities.

Small towns like Grafton - with a population of around 4,000 - are especially vulnerable to a surge in critically ill patients, as local hospitals have limited space and staff.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-55024447

Authorities in Belgium and the US state of North Dakota are allowing healthcare workers with covid-19 back to work, claiming that staff shortages necessitated the move.
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4455

North Dakota is facing an extreme shortage of hospital beds, as COVID hospitalizations converge with strains on health care staffing and high noncoronavirus admissions. There are just 11 available intensive care beds and 181 regular inpatient beds in the whole state,
https://www.grandforksherald.com/ne...ry-1000-North-Dakotans-has-died-from-COVID-19

An agency offeredMy wife $10K/week to go work at a hospital in Fargo. I suggested that she take the offer.

 

[A Martin]

Where do you live? I have close friend in ICU with covid up in Michigan. Only three covid cases and less than 50% of beds occupied.

it may have been they just didn’t want you in the hospital.

I am in Manitoba (Just north of North Dakota) .... and yes , they didn't want me in the hospital .... I am in the vulnerable age group ... which is a polite way to say I am an old fart ... haaaa

 

[murphey]

Disease and death is an integral part of life. My beliefs allow me to accept that reality without fear.

I accept it also. But I don't have to actively go looking for either.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

overwhelmed? really?

where?

Watch this space three weeks from now.

You can always find a bed of some sort...but healthcare workers are a finite resource.

 

[DrewG]

overwhelmed? really?

where?

That is a very broad statement. Where? I've heard some news stories about the midwest and early on (March/April) New York City was overwhelmed.

Current figures for my county (Seminole County, FL)are ~11% ICU bed availability. Next county over (Orange County) are ~33% available. (Source:https://www.covidcaremap.org/maps/us-healthcare-system-capacity/#5.5/29.401/-84.773)

There's lots of the US that have plenty of capacity. (And to be accurate, there are some that do not!)

EDIT - @SoCal RV Flyer made my point below more succinctly. A tip of the cap to you.

It should be understood that "capacity" with regard to available beds isn't the only metric that matters in terms of being overwhelmed or not. Staffing is the major issue. My fiancée is a nurse for an outpatient surgery center that is affiliated with the hospital system in our city. The hospital is sending out text alerts to all nurses in the network - daily - asking for hands in the ICUs (both COVID and non-COVID), on the med floors, you name it. They are strained to the hilt here and most everywhere else.

Last week, they had 40% regular ICU bed capacity. For the COVID unit, they had 30% ICU capacity and 18% non-ICU capacity; for regular medical beds, they had 41% capacity. They were still needing staffing help, even with a decent amount of "available capacity." They are needing coverage for full shifts and sometimes just need "helping hands," and are paying upwards of $80/hour across the board for those that accept the assignments. So - to say hospitals aren't overwhelmed simply because every bed isn't full is a fallacy.

PS - This week, they have ZERO beds available on their COVID unit (both ICU and non-ICU) - and in fact have 2 patients in an "Emergency Room Hold," meaning 2 patients being isolated in the ER that need COVID unit beds (that translates to -8% capacity). The regular ICU and Med floors still have decent capacity, but again, staffing is strained as all getout.

 

[kath]

Hospital facilities are close to being overwhelmed here in Anchorage, and we cannot easily "import" nurses and other health care workers from other places to fill the need.

I'm a cancer patient, so I depend on access to those facilities right now. This is not a choice. My well-being is strongly linked right now to the choices being made by others. By strangers. Not everyone has the same ability to manage their own risk in the Covid era.

 

[CaptainXap]

I think something people tend to ignore is the wide range of outcomes if you get COVID. People tend to think of it as either 'a bit ill for a week or so' or 'dead'. The reality is that it for some it's taking many, many months to recover - 'long covid'. My cousin got it early on, and he's only now getting back to full health. Some people may never get back to full health.

I would also recommend anyone here to talk with your loved ones about what level of heroic measures should be taken to keep you alive in the case that you succumb to severe COVID, especially if any of your loved ones are at-risk. My Wife was put in the difficult position of having to make those decisions on behalf of her mother over the phone with a nurse on the other side of the country, and it would have been much easier for her to make those kind of life-and-death decisions if they'd spoken about it beforehand.

 

[Bob Noel]

The problem is extrapolating your own personal experience/knowledge to the entire nation, and forgetting/ignoring what is going on in other parts of the country.

It shouldn't be too hard to find areas of the country that are having outbreaks now (including covid-related deaths) but overall still have not been hit as hard as say, NY, NJ, and MA.

In Massachusetts, during the whole spring campaign to flatten the curve, people had to be reminded that hospitals were still open for non-covid stuff. Some healthcare workers had to be laid-off. Massachusetts opened 5 field hospitals and, iirc, only one of those had any beds used.

Is the MA experience common across the nation? don't know. But your own experience with a local facility having zero extra beds doesn't mean it's happening across the nation.

 

[texasclouds]

I am not worried about the chinese virus. I am however worried about the overreaching control that our government is currently exercising.

 

[Daleandee]

I tend to believe that at some point almost everyone will get it. My wife has had it and my son. I work in schools and there are a lot of precautions being taken but as the old saying goes ... "you can run but you can't hide!"

I try to be wise about keeping my distance, keeping clean (including hands), wearing a mask to keep others happy, and avoiding groups where the virus is likely to spread.

But at the end of the day liberty & freedom are extremely important to me. I believe common sense would go a long way in stopping this virus but as I've learned, "common sense ain't so common anymore!"

 

[Tantalum]

If the government comes in and tells you that you must close your legally operating and functioning business then it is also up to them to give back some of the trillions and tax dollars they have collected and make up for your loss.. look at your prior year's tax return and ensure that you make at least that much


I'm sure that for every clickbait worthy article with a photo of a nurse somewhere "pleading" to stay home with a catchy tag line there is a business owner somewhere who is struggling to pay his employees and is struggling to cover his rent.. it's estimated that something like half the restaurants in the local area will not recover from this and will permanently have to close doors

Why does the solution have to be all or nothing, why can't the at-risk groups be taken care of specifically? Why can't people who've had it and are shown to have the antibody and effective immunity be given a pass to return to life as normal? if the landlord can't evict the person who hasn't paid rent in 4 months and now they're also in jeopardy of not making their own mortgage payments and whatnot then where is their help?

We are past the point of discussing the severity and health impacts of this, we're at the point where we are past the empty "together we can beat this" platitudes and people need to offer real solutions that go beyond telling people to stay home

 

[Bob Noel]

...
We are past the point of discussing the severity and health impacts of this, we're at the point where we are past the empty "together we can beat this" platitudes and people need to offer real solutions that go beyond telling people to stay home

There are not lot of bullets in the gun wrt to slowing/stopping spread of viruses. Isolate, PPE, hygiene. Unless we go with hazmat suits, airlocks, and full respirators, there isn't much more we can do...

 

[WannFly]

I'd hazard a guess that it's got something to do with the climate. Or at least is a contributing factor. Stuff like this is always nasty in the winter months and ND has a lot of those.

Winter have not arrived in ND yet

 

[WannFly]

.

I only quoted your post because you mentioned you live in a sparsely populated area.

North Dakota is one of the most sparsely populated states (762,000 people total) yet is having the most severe outbreak in the world

104,000 cases per million
1252 deaths per million.

And nobody knows for sure why that is . They are typically very sensible , careful , and stable people

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

From what I see in most places, I would have to disagree with the last statement of yours.

 

[Tantalum]

There are not lot of bullets in the gun wrt to slowing/stopping spread of viruses. Isolate, PPE, hygiene. Unless we go with hazmat suits, airlocks, and full respirators, there isn't much more we can do...

I agree, but instead of making Jim and Sue close their business how about:
(A) leave that decision up to Jim and Sue and their respective patrons
(B) if they close or limit their business ensure that the trillions that have been taken as tax revenue be used ("common town pot" and all that) to help them keep their doors open. No, don't make them pay it back
(C) if you are at risk stay home, require employers to allow work from home where feasible, people at risk can, and should, stay home

There are a lot of smart people in this country, and overall in the world, who could help offer pragmatic solutions to limit the risk of hospitals being over burdened. But their voices are drown out by politicians, the media, etc.

 

[Tantalum]

North Dakota is one of the most sparsely populated states (762,000 people total) yet is having the most severe outbreak in the world

Just because people's houses are far apart has nothing to do with the virus ability to spread when people gather with each other

 

[SkyChaser]

Winter have not arrived in ND yet

Oh, I know. It's not here in S. MN either. But it's hard to explain the concept of daily highs in the upper 20s/low 30s and lows in the single digits without calling it winter.

 

[jsstevens]

There are two problems with just letting people decide for themselves:
1) Those in power have to trust people to do things right for others
(assuming those in power want to do well for us and are not just interested in power-an unproven hypothesis)
2) Those who are being trusted have to do what's right for others (this is a group problem, not simply an individual problem). Others may be employees and patrons of course.

 

[Half Fast]

There are two problems with just letting people decide for themselves:
1) Those in power have to trust people to do things right for others
(assuming those in power want to do well for us and are not just interested in power-an unproven hypothesis)
2) Those who are being trusted have to do what's right for others (this is a group problem, not simply an individual problem). Others may be employees and patrons of course.

Not much different from many other everyday things- driving, using firearms, consuming alcohol, etc., etc. Being a free society entails certain risks.

 

[Half Fast]

Oh, I know. It's not here in S. MN either. But it's hard to explain the concept of daily highs in the upper 20s/low 30s and lows in the single digits without calling it winter.

One would think that the populations of ND and MN would be an especially hardy people, the weak and frail having been eliminated by Darwin by now, so that they would be able to withstand just about any disease that comes along.

Or maybe those who were strong enough to travel went south years ago.....

 

[Bob Noel]

There are two problems with just letting people decide for themselves:
1) Those in power have to trust people to do things right for others

how horrible that "those in power" have a problem trusting citizens. I think "those in power" need to remember who they work for...

 

[Matthew]

how horrible that "those in power" have a problem trusting citizens. I think "those in power" need to remember who they work for...

Yeah, I'd add that at #3.

 

[wrbix]

overwhelmed? really?

where?

Here, and lots of other places. Here’s a text from my wife yesterday; she works at a community hospital of approx 200 beds:
It has hit the fan In the ER. All ICU beds full. 60 holds in ER. What a mess.

 

[Kelvin]

My kids (4 1/2 and 11 months) have gone to day care every day since C19 became a thing. So have 80% of the day care. Not ONE single case in the school for a child. One worked contracted it and exposed my daughter who tested negative three times.

On the other hand, I have lost 4 really close friends...all with serious underlying conditions.

I have chosen to live life as usual...I wear a mask when it causes a **** storm NOT to...
and am very respectful to those who wear one...

My son and I just flew on the airlines to Philadelphia to buy a car...we had a BLAST. On the way home we stopped at the Air and Space Museum...front row parking...he FLIPPED out when the first plane he saw from the front door had the same mask on that he did...

 

[schmookeeg]

I want to know, who has already had the virus, gotten over it.

My mom was tested positive last week. She is 68 and asymptomatic so far. She also has about every conceivable comorbidity, so we assumed this would toast her. She's the first one I know of to test positive since this hand-wringing began in March.

She is in a government-funded quarantine center since her assisted living facility doesn't want her back.

My doctor buddies are sputtering with work since the beds are all being taken from scheduled surgeries and the like.

I thought this whole debacle would have increased the number of government skeptics and spike libertarianism, but from what I see in my social media travels, the young ones seem to like trading career opportunities for unemployment cheddar and the government security blanket. Man do they love telling others what to do and screeching at the people who even question mask usage or effectivity.

le shrug. It's their future, they're architecting it, I don't need to understand it. I wear a mask to virtue-signal that "I don't want you to die" to complete strangers, even though I couldn't care less. It's easier than having to hear the mock outrage and suffer the constant judgey side-eye when I stroll around without one.

 

[Lindberg]

Here, and lots of other places. Here’s a text from my wife yesterday; she works at a community hospital of approx 200 beds:
It has hit the fan In the ER. All ICU beds full. 60 holds in ER. What a mess.

At the large hospitals here, normal is 90+% occupancy in ICU. What's normal at a hospital like hers?

 

[Sinistar]

.

I only quoted your post because you mentioned you live in a sparsely populated area.

North Dakota is one of the most sparsely populated states (762,000 people total) yet is having the most severe outbreak in the world

104,000 cases per million
1252 deaths per million.

And nobody knows for sure why that is . They are typically very sensible , careful , and stable people

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I think its several things combined. The major contributor is that a lot of people in ND and northern MN and I'm guessing SD just don't take it that serious, shrug it off kind of attitude. That's their choice - not faulting them but I think the numbers mainly correlate to that (IMHO). My brother lives in northern MN. He says in all the smaller towns hardly anyone is wearing masks. He recounted a story of his friend's father (80's or maybe early 90's) who went in a small store and questioned why no one was wearing masks. They ran him out of there! Then factor in the 18-30yr olds. Many are still partying and getting together...just not a bars. Its cold enough now that is all or mostly indoors. Then they bring it home (asymptomatic) and give it to 4 others and eventually the grandparents get it.

The other thing I wonder is how many people have had it...or are convinced they have had it and now say..."Why should I wear a mask?". They're not worried about getting it again and they probably aren't spreading it either so in a way they could now be exempt.

Give the first doses to half the health care workers. That way if its a zombie vaccine we have half left.

Then skip the elderly and throw giant free kegger parties in every state for 18...30yr olds. The only price of admission is to get vaccinated. A month later the country will be completely clear LOL! Or we'll have about 48 million really fast zombies.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If the government comes in and tells you that you must close your legally operating and functioning business then it is also up to them to give back some of the trillions and tax dollars they have collected and make up for your loss.. look at your prior year's tax return and ensure that you make at least that much


I'm sure that for every clickbait worthy article with a photo of a nurse somewhere "pleading" to stay home with a catchy tag line there is a business owner somewhere who is struggling to pay his employees and is struggling to cover his rent.. it's estimated that something like half the restaurants in the local area will not recover from this and will permanently have to close doors

Why does the solution have to be all or nothing, why can't the at-risk groups be taken care of specifically? Why can't people who've had it and are shown to have the antibody and effective immunity be given a pass to return to life as normal? if the landlord can't evict the person who hasn't paid rent in 4 months and now they're also in jeopardy of not making their own mortgage payments and whatnot then where is their help?

We are past the point of discussing the severity and health impacts of this, we're at the point where we are past the empty "together we can beat this" platitudes and people need to offer real solutions that go beyond telling people to stay home

I think there’s more to this... covid was just the opening that was needed.

 

[Tom-D]

My mom was tested positive last week.

All the best for your mom.

 

[Morgan3820]

My wife went to work last night to find out that it was her turn on the Covid ward. So far not too bad. Walkie-talkies mostly.

 

[Bacho]

My wife grandmother is 96. Some of her kids refuse to visit her. She would far rather see them over spending her last months/years alone.

I believer the media sensationalizes every item it gets it hands on. Covid is no different.

 

[Llewtrah381]

There are two problems with just letting people decide for themselves:
1) Those in power have to trust people to do things right for others
(assuming those in power want to do well for us and are not just interested in power-an unproven hypothesis)
2) Those who are being trusted have to do what's right for others (this is a group problem, not simply an individual problem). Others may be employees and patrons of course.

Agree...and if that were practical, we wouldn’t have any DUIs either

 

[wrbix]

At the large hospitals here, normal is 90+% occupancy in ICU. What's normal at a hospital like hers?

Citation needed.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

My mom was tested positive last week. She is 68 and asymptomatic so far. She also has about every conceivable comorbidity, so we assumed this would toast her. She's the first one I know of to test positive since this hand-wringing began in March.

She is in a government-funded quarantine center since her assisted living facility doesn't want her back.

My doctor buddies are sputtering with work since the beds are all being taken from scheduled surgeries and the like.

I thought this whole debacle would have increased the number of government skeptics and spike libertarianism, but from what I see in my social media travels, the young ones seem to like trading career opportunities for unemployment cheddar and the government security blanket. Man do they love telling others what to do and screeching at the people who even question mask usage or effectivity.

le shrug. It's their future, they're architecting it, I don't need to understand it. I wear a mask to virtue-signal that "I don't want you to die" to complete strangers, even though I couldn't care less. It's easier than having to hear the mock outrage and suffer the constant judgey side-eye when I stroll around without one.

I could not care less what others think. I virtue signal when I travel to work on the airline because I have to get to work. Otherwise I don’t do business with places that require a mask.

 

[wrbix]

At the large hospitals here, normal is 90+% occupancy in ICU. What's normal at a hospital like hers?

......and as a retired board certified intensivist I understand how ICU occupancy works - keep close to or at full occupancy with expectation to transfer “to floor” the least sick when bed needed. But having 100% occupancy with dozens of patients in the ER needing admission is medical infrastructure at its breaking point.

 

[AndRotate]

Citation needed.

I didn't realize it was that easy. I'll take one, too.

 

[Bill]

I didn't realize it was that easy. I'll take one, too.

All that coolness yet it still needs a guy wire to hold the tail up!