I Have So Many Questions

Clif001

Clif001

Filing Flight Plan
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Apr 2, 2023
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Wake Forest, NC
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Display name:
Clif001
Hi all,

New member from North Carolina (specifically Wake Forest, where the college used to be). I'm 66 and retired. My only flight experience is a recent Eagle Flight (and a couple of hundred hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator).

Now that I am retired, I'm thinking of getting my Sport Pilot license (or certificate, if you're really picky).

Why Sport Pilot? I'm not 100% sure I could pass the medical. "No news is good news" or "Ignorance is bliss", take your pick. Sport Pilot will suit me fine. I don't plan on flying at night, or anything less than VFR. Most of my flying will be solo, with only an occasional passenger (best friend or grandson, wife will never).

So, now, to the questions...

I already have an idea of the overall cost, but how does one pay? Lump sum? Per lesson? Combination?

As well as training, I am also planning on building a Fisher Flying Products Dakota Hawk. It's a tail-dragger. Should I take lessons in a tricycle and then come back for tail wheel training or try to find a CFI/school that will train from the beginning in a tail dragger? (I'm leaning toward the latter, sort of like learning in a manual transmission cause it's easier to transition to an automatic).

Do schools frown on independently taking ground school (Sporty's or Kings) before dual training? Is there a ground school independent study that is favored?

Like I said, I have so many questions.

TIA.
 
You typically pay per flight. Some schools offer a discount if you pay a block up front or the whole amount. I would not pay the full amount. My local school gives you something like a 2% bonus if you put $500 in cash or check on your account.

You can learn in nosewheel and convert or learn in tailwheel. Although there are few schools that will train from the start in tailwheel, mainly due to insurance requirements.

Any school that gives you a hard time about doing an online ground school before starting would be a pass for me.
 
Clif001 said:
but how does one pay? Lump sum? Per lesson? Combination?
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Pay per lesson, or at least no more than a few at a time. DO NOT do lump sum. If you decide to change schools or stop training, you’ll have an awful time getting any money back. Many people have been burned with lump sum payments.


Clif001 said:
Do schools frown on independently taking ground school (Sporty's or Kings) before dual training? Is there a ground school independent study that is favored?
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It shouldn’t matter but ask the school. I’ve taken a few King classes and was not impressed. They work, but they’re very dated and poorly produced.

Many folks do independent study from the books, not bothering with King or Sporty’s at all. I got by fine just using the FAA books (free downloads).
 
Our students mostly use Gleim, Sportys or Gold Seal for the ground school. King Schools not so much. We have no objection, in fact, we stopped having a formal ground school several years ago.

Lessons are pay as you go. A very few students will put money down ahead of time.
 
For ground school, I started with Gleim about 18 months ago, and found it to be largely a regurgitated version of the FAA books, with a ~2 minute video explaining the highlights. It was tough for me to get through. Long story, I paused my ground school for about a year, and picked it back up with Sporty’s last fall. It was MUCH better for my learning style. It was a nice compliment to the FAA books, which I used extensively, including studying for the written test. (Also note the experiation on the course materials. Sporty’s is lifetime access to updates. When I bought Gleim it was 1 year. May not matter, but something to consider.)
 
Clif001 said:
Why Sport Pilot? I'm not 100% sure I could pass the medical. "No news is good news" or "Ignorance is bliss", take your pick.
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As an option, you can always make an appt with an AME and just ask questions and talk things over. My way of thinking is no downside while it is outside the Medxpress process.

At one point between FAA Medical Exams, I had a medical situation which I did not know about. I made an appt outside of the Medxpress process with the AME whom I go to and just asked him. For whatever the cost of the appt was ($150 more or less) it was good to get an answer directly from the Doctor who does my actual Med Exams. fwiw - His answer was "No Problem - Good to Go". I considered it cash well spent.
 
Welcome. although I have a ppl, I’m only exercising sport privileges now, for much the same reason.

Lots of bad stories here about paying lump sum (school closes, airplane switched, airplane always down, too many students and few planes makes scheduling hard…take your pick. Besides it locks you into a single service provider at a time when you don’t have enough experience to know what a good one looks like).

I’d say self-study ground school is the norm for most of us not tracking to the airlines. Other than regulations regarding licensing & operation, there is no significant difference between sport & private ground. I use the crappy winter weather to study ground. I’ve tried several brands over the years just to stay up to date & review. They all a bit different, but good.

train in what’s conveniently nearby.

building: we had a saying in the sailing game: if you think you want to build a boat, first build a deck box. You’re really got to enjoy the kinds of arts & crafts stuff required. Frankly, I’d rather fly than sweating in a dim hanger on a warm summer’s evening chasing wire while everyone else is out with that silky warm air blowing over them.

At our age (I’m only 3 yrs older than you), it’s really our final time management problem.
 
Speaking of time management, I just read in the DH faq an estimate of 1,200-1,500 hrs to build. Do you know what that means in real-time? That doesn’t include time spent puzzling on your thinking box, researching & chasing parts, or waiting for delivery, vacations, or illnesses.

Go to Barnstormers & read through the unfinished kits offered for sale, mostly offered by widows or estates cleaning out the barn or garage. My F-n-L died with two unfinished kits in his shop. Both still at the “Lincoln Log” stage of assembly. One was nearly 20 yrs old.

“For dedicated builders, most airplane projects take two to four years. That’s the top of the bell curve, but of course there are builders at either end of it too. It could easily take five or 10 years. Savvy aircraft builders will never commit to a first-flight date, despite constant pestering from friends and relatives. “Tuesday” is a popular answer.”

https://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft-experimental-aircraft-homebuilts-so-you-want-build-airplane/

My Bushcat, more of an assembly than a build, seems to be taking the community 1-2 yrs to complete. The estimate from the factory is: 230 hrs.to build.
 
Thanks for all the great replies. :)

I'm kind of glad to hear that lump sum is not only not usually required, but most feel its a bad idea. I certainly understand the reasons why. And it's helpful that I don't have to save up $6000 (give or take) before I can start.

Which does lead to another question... How long is the average lesson? (I know it's recommended to take two and three lessons a week for better retention.)

As far as the build, I've been a hobby woodworker for 40+ years. I'm looking forward to the build process. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Note, I'm not going to build from scratch, but not going the quick build either.
 
Welcome!

A few answers (opinions, rather)

As far as medical, I'd suggest calling up an AME and scheduling a "consultation" visit. Consider it a dress rehearsal. The doctor can look you over, give their opinion on your status and you can make an informed decision. If you can get a Class 3 medical, then you can later go BasicMed. You could still just do Sport Pilot, but you wouldn't have to. On the other hand, if the AME says "lol, no" then nothing lost in a consultation. So, you're still good to go w/ Sport Pilot.

As to payment, it will mostly be as you go, but sometimes places have bulk rates, so maybe a 5 or 10% discount on 10hrs or more. That would be the only reason to do more than as you go.

As to ground school, do it. You don't have to tell them you learned it on King's videos, lesson 4 at minute 5. You just happen to know the information. But in a few months, you'll be off on your own. So, I'd want as much training as I could get, so I'd be hammering the online ground school beforehand.

You're old enough to know that titles are not a guarantee of knowledge or infallibility. By that I mean, if the CFI says something that doesn't make sense, do not hesitate to ask for an explanation. If their explanation amounts to "Because I said so", I'd suggest looking for another CFI.

Good luck!
 
As to your average lesson, it depends.

I have numerous logbook entries that were less than an hour. So, it depends. Longer lessons later in training, and of course, the XC flights.
 
guest user said:
As to your average lesson, it depends.

I have numerous logbook entries that were less than an hour. So, it depends. Longer lessons later in training, and of course, the XC flights.
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Not counting XC, would you say, for the first 10 hours or so, that most lessons are under 2 hours? ( under 1-1/2 ?)
 
Approximately 1 Hour ground instruction and 1 hour flight instruction, give or take. Nothing is written in stone. Depends on what the particular lesson covers.
 
Clif001 said:
I'm kind of glad to hear that lump sum is not only not usually required, but most feel its a bad idea. I certainly understand the reasons why. And it's helpful that I don't have to save up $6000 (give or take) before I can start.
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$6K seems low, but I have no experience with Sport Pilot, so maybe it's a reasonable estimate.
There is still an advantage to having a substantial war chest saved up before you start: The closer together you can schedule lessons, the fewer total hours it will take, since you spend less time each lesson remembering what you forgot from the previous lesson(s). The cash burn rate will be higher, but if you can fly two or three times a week, the total cash outlay will be lower than if you only fly once a week, or a couple of times a month.
 
This is almost exactly what I'm in the middle of now and for the same reasons. I'm currently 16.1 hours in on a journey for a sport pilot certificate and have spent $5,426.12. That includes King Schools lifetime kit, headset and the first year's insurance / membership at the flight school. Without the incidentals, it works out to be $3,828.48. In the beginning, ground training / instructor time was higher than it is now, so the costs were $220 - $260 per appointment. The average now is 1 hour rental and 1 hour instructor time which costs $181.56 per visit. Obviously costs will vary geographically but these are real numbers over the last several months. The plane is a glass panel LSA CTLS.
 
Normally quotes are per hour. But you’re actually charged by engine meter time plus your instructor. A lot depends on how much you can absorb in one session. Learning to fly is hard work. There is no point of pushing through a 2-hr lesson if you’re saturated at 45 or 90 min. A good instructor will help you calibrate. But there is no shame in just saying, “enough for now.”

if you’re in a hurry, maybe a morning & then an afternoon session would be your best schedule (my favorite).
 
Clif001 said:
Thanks for all the great replies. :)

I'm kind of glad to hear that lump sum is not only not usually required, but most feel its a bad idea. I certainly understand the reasons why. And it's helpful that I don't have to save up $6000 (give or take) before I can start.

Which does lead to another question... How long is the average lesson? (I know it's recommended to take two and three lessons a week for better retention.)

As far as the build, I've been a hobby woodworker for 40+ years. I'm looking forward to the build process. As they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Note, I'm not going to build from scratch, but not going the quick build either.
Click to expand...
Probably best to actually save up that cash in advance anyway. There are plenty of stories of people starting lessons, then running out of cash along the way. Having it available, or having the cash flow that's able to make it available, takes a lot of pressure off.

Lessons will probably be less than 2 hrs, and closer to 1. Your brain will get saturated early, that's normal. Note on lesson lengths, though, if you learn at a towered airport you'll probably spend more time on the ground with taxi and waiting your turn. Non-towered airports might get you more flight time per the same lesson time. Normally you'll pay for the plane based on the Hobbs time. The Hobbs meter is wired in such a way that it starts running pretty much whenever the engine is running, so at the end of the flight you'll be billed based on that time and not the actual "wheels off the ground" time, or check-out/check-in time. The nice thing about that sort of billing is that if you stop for lunch somewhere, you are still only charged for the time the engine is running. Your flight instructor will charge whatever and however he or she decides, so you'll need to ask in advance.

Plan for 3 lessons per week and hope for two. Weather, maintenance, illness, life (both yours and your CFIs) will always throw something into the mix.
 
Yes, I hadn't counted the headset, nor the other accoutrements required for training. The headset itself, I'll need top of the line noise cancelling. I do have a bit of an issue with tinnitus, as I discovered on my Eagle Flight.

Insurance and membership in a flight school? This is new information to me (not that it's surprising).

I'm not in a hurry, but I do understand that I should attend training two or even three times a week, and that is the target. I still have to make a few DoorDash runs before I'm ready to start dual, but ground school studies will take up the time.

Has anyone had any experience with FLY8MA "free" ground school (learn.fly8ma.com)? Yeah, I know, you get what you pay for, but there's no harm in asking. (This is not a sales pitch, I'm genuinely interested in opinions.)
 
Clif001 said:
Yes, I hadn't counted the headset, nor the other accoutrements required for training. The headset itself, I'll need top of the line noise cancelling. I do have a bit of an issue with tinnitus, as I discovered on my Eagle Flight.

Insurance and membership in a flight school? This is new information to me (not that it's surprising).

I'm not in a hurry, but I do understand that I should attend training two or even three times a week, and that is the target. I still have to make a few DoorDash runs before I'm ready to start dual, but ground school studies will take up the time.

Has anyone had any experience with FLY8MA "free" ground school (learn.fly8ma.com)? Yeah, I know, you get what you pay for, but there's no harm in asking. (This is not a sales pitch, I'm genuinely interested in opinions.)
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Renter's insurance is something you'll have to ask about. Sometimes it's required, sometimes not. But if you ding up the airplane, the owner's insurance will fix it and then could potentially look to get their money back (subrogation) from you.
 
We keep early lessons fairly short, since there is so much new information. We call it "drinking from a fire hose." So the first few lessons will be a half hour or 45 minutes in the air. Perhaps a bit more on the ground. Later on, most lessons are about an hour in the air and up to an hour on the ground, except for the required cross-country trips, which are going to take longer.

Our online scheduling software, FlightSchedulePro, automatically gives you a two-hour block of time unless you modify your reservation.

We recommend renter's insurance when you are ready to solo, especially if you have accumulated some assets.
 
For me, the membership was required prior to solo. It includes insurance using their planes and a nominal discount on the rental rates ($10 per hour discount). It's $500 a year.
 
Building: seems you know your mind on the matter. That is good. But it doesn’t account for what you don’t know at this stage. So I’m of the opinion it’s not a good idea to settle on a plane to build too early. You might, for instance, buy a STOL kit, but end up really interested in a flying a plane that goes further & a bit faster than your typical STOL plane. You just don’t know what you don’t know.

however, if you are determined to whittle an airplane, join eaa.org, the Experimental Airplane Ass’n. Great boards, lots of experience on tap, & videos.

also, get you’re engine choice figured out early. For a new pilot with a new tail-dragger, I’d recommend the Rotax 900 series. The gear box with breakaway dogs will save you an expensive engine overhaul if you have a ground strike or nose over. The problem is the 900 block is not only popular in civilian LSAs aircraft but it is also used in the US Prowler drone & the new Turkish drone. As more drones, especially suicide (expendable) drones, are developed, the more scarce your preferred power plant might become.

we had to wait awhile on my 912uls.
 
rhkennerly said:
however, if you are determined to whittle an airplane, join eaa.org, the Experimental Airplane ***’n. Great boards, lots of experience on tap, & videos.

we had to wait awhile on my 912uls.
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can’t believe the board can’t abbreviate “Association.”
 
Assoc. ;-)

Already an eaa member. One of the first things I did (also the source of my Eagle Flight).

Targeting the Rotax 912. I've read nothing but good reviews about it, and it is a recommended engine that has a mount design available.
 
Clif001 said:
Not counting XC, would you say, for the first 10 hours or so, that most lessons are under 2 hours? ( under 1-1/2 ?)
Click to expand...

For the first 10hrs, I only had 3 of 13 flights that were over 1hr.
My first 2hr flight was an XC flight.

Clif001 said:
Has anyone had any experience with FLY8MA "free" ground school (learn.fly8ma.com)? Yeah, I know, you get what you pay for, but there's no harm in asking. (This is not a sales pitch, I'm genuinely interested in opinions.)
Click to expand...

When I got back into flying after an 11yr hiatus, I brushed up using fly8ma.
I found the information well presented and complete. No objections.

The "you get what you pay for" here, is there is no certificate of completion at the end. So from an endorsement point of view, it didn't happen,
 
guest user said:
When I got back into flying after an 11yr hiatus, I brushed up using fly8ma.
I found the information well presented and complete. No objections.

The "you get what you pay for" here, is there is no certificate of completion at the end. So from an endorsement point of view, it didn't happen,
Click to expand...

Flying did a review of several. https://www.flyingmag.com/guides/best-online-ground-school/

I’ve sampled a lot of the free online videos as I got back up to speed. Uniformly pretty good, but frequently one series “clicks” with me on a particular topic more than the others. Fly8MA, for instance, really explained airspace visualization, classes, & rules in a way that stuck. Angle of Attack does good courses as does Free Pilot Training on YouTube.

I paid for the Sporty’s PPL as a refresher, since I had a license. It was good. As far as test prep goes, I really liked drilling with Sporty’s Pilot Buddy. You can get all the FAA books from ASA & create your own course, using online vids to fill in. Then have your instructor quiz you & certify you to take the written.
 
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