I hate my January annuals

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obw

Pre-takeoff checklist
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obw1
Almost a year ago to the day, I was told during the annual that my Cherokee that I owned for less than six months would likely never fly again. That indeed turned out to be the case. Some of you may remember my saga (https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...s-first-and-last-annual-advice-needed.130394/)

Moving on from that disaster, I bought an Archer last year that I have really enjoyed flying. Coincidentally, the annual on it was also due in January. The engine was starting to make some metal (aluminum shards in the filter) so my mechanic borescoped it and then pulled a cylinder. It turns out one of the camshaft lobes has pitting. He also found the cause of the aluminum - a piston pin plug.

So I'm now looking at an IRAN or major overhaul. I am leaning towards a major, but am open to input. The last major overhaul was in 1996, so it's probably due. Besides cost, my biggest focus is getting the plane up and flying as soon as possible. I appreciate all the supply chain issues, and those are clearly having an effect on engine supplies - Lycoming quoted a 26-28 week wait time for an overhauled engine.

Does anyone have any insights on an overhaul shop that could potentially turn around a Lycoming O-360-A4M relatively quickly? I'm based in MA, so east coast would be preferable.

Other thoughts/suggestions are very welcome. (Giving up on airplane ownership is certainly one consideration, but I don't think I'm there yet!)
 
obw said:
Almost a year ago to the day, I was told during the annual that my Cherokee that I owned for less than six months would likely never fly again. That indeed turned out to be the case. Some of you may remember my saga (https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...s-first-and-last-annual-advice-needed.130394/)

Moving on from that disaster, I bought an Archer last year that I have really enjoyed flying. Coincidentally, the annual on it was also due in January. The engine was starting to make some metal (aluminum shards in the filter) so my mechanic borescoped it and then pulled a cylinder. It turns out one of the camshaft lobes has pitting. He also found the cause of the aluminum - a piston pin plug.

So I'm now looking at an IRAN or major overhaul. I am leaning towards a major, but am open to input. The last major overhaul was in 1996, so it's probably due. Besides cost, my biggest focus is getting the plane up and flying as soon as possible. I appreciate all the supply chain issues, and those are clearly having an effect on engine supplies - Lycoming quoted a 26-28 week wait time for an overhauled engine.

Does anyone have any insights on an overhaul shop that could potentially turn around a Lycoming O-360-A4M relatively quickly? I'm based in MA, so east coast would be preferable.

Other thoughts/suggestions are very welcome. (Giving up on airplane ownership is certainly one consideration, but I don't think I'm there yet!)
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So sorry to hear of your difficulties.
I hate my July annuals because it is so hot and mine are owner assisted annuals.

Wow, I ordered a lycoming rebuilt motor in Jan 2020, they said 7-9 weeks delivery. It took 12 weeks to get it I suspect because of covid. Now it is 26-28 weeks?

Can your AP do engine overhauls? Mine offered to do mine last year but I wanted to keep mine flying until I got the rebuilt motor so we could do a quick swap. Plus I feel the plane will have better resale value with a factory rebuilt motor verse a field over hauled.

It your case I would do which ever is going to be faster.

I think I would look into what kind of lead time is required for the parts you are going to need to help decide which way to go. It is a tough call in today's world. Best of luck to you.
 
If you have to split the case you might as well do a full overhaul for peace of mind. The lead time most likely isn't dictated by the shops work load but parts availability. The little bit I have shopped around, cylinder kits are almost non existent. The other bottle neck will be getting the crankcase inspected and/or refurbished. The shops that primarily do this work have stupid long lead times. If the cylinders aren't too bad they could be overhauled by boring them out or having them chromed.
 
I had a cracked case and a flat cylinder on my O360-A4M back in Dec 2015 and traded it for an overhauled one from Penn Yan. They had (at least) one overhauled core on their shelf, asked me which cylinders I wanted and which carb I needed and built one up for me (it cost me an extra $2200,I think, for the unusable case). Back then it took 6 weeks for them to get it ready and about 2 days(!) to freight it from NY to TX. Mine went back to them on their pallet when it was off. They were great to work with and their price was fair, though not the cheapest. I went with new Lycoming cylinders.

My A&P was doing similar work on a rental Archer at the same time and was working with Air Power, up the road in Ft Worth. He was impressed with how much better the service and turnaround was w Penn Yan.

That was all pre-Covid, of course. No idea how long the backlog is now. It also depends a bit on whether they have that core there but that’s a fairly common one. It may be worth giving them a call and checking it out. The engine has been great - 1100 hours on it now.
 
If it were mine I would repair the engine: Disassemble, clean, inspect, replace the cam and other parts as needed, reassemble, go fly.
 
I tend to do a 13 month annual so it moves a month every year. I fly until the end of the month and then get the annual done the next month.
 
Gary Ward said:
So sorry to hear of your difficulties.
I hate my July annuals because it is so hot and mine are owner assisted annuals.

Wow, I ordered a lycoming rebuilt motor in Jan 2020, they said 7-9 weeks delivery. It took 12 weeks to get it I suspect because of covid. Now it is 26-28 weeks?

Can your AP do engine overhauls? Mine offered to do mine last year but I wanted to keep mine flying until I got the rebuilt motor so we could do a quick swap. Plus I feel the plane will have better resale value with a factory rebuilt motor verse a field over hauled.

It your case I would do which ever is going to be faster.

I think I would look into what kind of lead time is required for the parts you are going to need to help decide which way to go. It is a tough call in today's world. Best of luck to you.
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Unfortunately my AP doesn't do overhauls. He said he'd check his network of shops to see who might be able to do it, but I have have a feeling I'll need to cast the net wide to get lucky.
 
Grum.Man said:
If you have to split the case you might as well do a full overhaul for peace of mind. The lead time most likely isn't dictated by the shops work load but parts availability. The little bit I have shopped around, cylinder kits are almost non existent. The other bottle neck will be getting the crankcase inspected and/or refurbished. The shops that primarily do this work have stupid long lead times. If the cylinders aren't too bad they could be overhauled by boring them out or having them chromed.
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Before he pulled the cylinder, my AP was recommending a top overhaul. He said the cylinders look good and was suggesting overhauling/chroming them. I'd assume that may still be an option with a major
 
Salty said:
I tend to do a 13 month annual so it moves a month every year. I fly until the end of the month and then get the annual done the next month.
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I'm worried that this year my annual sign off may be in August!!
 
obw said:
I'm worried that this year my annual sign off may be in August!!
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I had one that was 11 months, so it happens.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I have nothing to add other that I'm so sorry - your luck with airplanes must be almost unrivaled.
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I'd wager a guess that it's going to be pretty common over the coming years. I have never seen so many hangar queens, neglected airplanes hit the market at such crazy prices as I am now. So many un-educated buyers only looking at TSMOH and pencil whipped annuals. Not saying that's the case for the OP but in general. FB marketplace and groups are the new standard for airplane marketing and the comments I see are mind boggling.
 
Aluminum chips off the piston pin plugs are shaved off by the ridge left at the bottom of the oil ring's travel. As the plug passes over it, if the plug is against the wall, it gets shaved. There is some room for the pin to move back and forth a tiny bit so that it won't get cut every time.

And that ridge formation is aggravated by corrosion pitting in the cylinder. It wears faster. I would suspect that those cylinders are pitted, especially since the cam and lifters show pitting. And corrosion like that is often due to ground-running the engine without flying it to burn off the water that accumulates in the crankcase during warmup when the clearances are larger and blowby is worse. I have pulled cylinders off engines that were just run and found water in them, especially between the cylinder and piston itself.

Lycoming had some issues with certain pin plugs starting in 1994:
https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Piston Pin Plug Wear Inspection.pdf
 
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Dan Thomas said:
Aluminum chips off the piston pin plugs are shaved off by the ridge left at the bottom of the oil ring's travel. As the plug passes over it, if the plug is against the wall, it gets shaved. There is some room for the pin to move back and forth a tiny bit so that it won't get cut every time.

And that ridge formation is aggravated by corrosion pitting in the cylinder. It wears faster. I would suspect that those cylinders are pitted, especially since the cam and lifters show pitting. And corrosion like that is often due to ground-running the engine without flying it to burn off the water that accumulates in the crankcase during warmup when the clearances are larger and blowby is worse. I have pulled cylinders off engines that were just run and found water in them, especially between the cylinder and piston itself.

Lycoming had some issues with certain pin plugs starting in 1994:
https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Piston Pin Plug Wear Inspection.pdf
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Thanks Dan. My mechanic said the cylinders are in pretty good shape, notwithstanding the one causing the piston pin plug issue. Since the camshaft is pitted with no spalling, perhaps one way to go is to overhaul this cylinder, reassemble the engine and fly it until I start see signs of other issues? At that point, pull the trigger on a major overhaul when, hopefully, the supply chain problems will be over.
 
obw said:
Thanks Dan. My mechanic said the cylinders are in pretty good shape, notwithstanding the one causing the piston pin plug issue. Since the camshaft is pitted with no spalling, perhaps one way to go is to overhaul this cylinder, reassemble the engine and fly it until I start see signs of other issues? At that point, pull the trigger on a major overhaul when, hopefully, the supply chain problems will be over.
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If money isn't an issue and you're trying to limit downtime, I'd say do both. Get your engine up and running ASAP and in the meantime go buy a new engine and hope yours lasts until you get a new engine in.
 
obw said:
Thanks Dan. My mechanic said the cylinders are in pretty good shape, notwithstanding the one causing the piston pin plug issue. Since the camshaft is pitted with no spalling, perhaps one way to go is to overhaul this cylinder, reassemble the engine and fly it until I start see signs of other issues? At that point, pull the trigger on a major overhaul when, hopefully, the supply chain problems will be over.
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I was wondering why with some pitting on the cam you want to split the case and overhaul. I had a Cheetah that had Al shavings in the filter that looked like sand. Turned out it was a piston pin causing this. We just replaced the cylinder. If it is only pitting on the Cam, I would replace the cylinder and fly on. If the lobe is spalled maybe a different story. With spalling on the lobe you will begin to notice a power decrease. First indication would be you won’t make static RPM which you can confirm before each takeoff as you push the power in. You do do a power set check at the beginning of the takeoff roll, right?
 
@obw your sole job here at POA should be to comment on every one of these posts where guys come here asking about aircraft loans and think that the big expense in airplanes is the purchase price.

Nothing to add other than I feel for ya...
 
A pit with no spalling seems to indicate the Cam is not making metal.

As others said ; reassemble and monitor.

Screen, filter , oil analysis and static RPM will alert you to condition.

Flushing the sump with solvent and draining through a paint strainer

is yet another tool.

I hope you have an Engine Dryer to protect your investment.
 
So sorry you have to deal with yet another problem. You didn't mention the TSMOH so that would factor into the decision to overhaul or IRAN. Also, if you go with a Lycoming rebuild you will get roller lifters so that should be a consideration as well. I had a Penn Yan overhaul a little over two years ago and have been happy with it. You're relatively close to them so could save a bit on shipping if you took care of it yourself...
 
Where is obw located?

While I like Penn Yan it seems Columbia in Lock Haven is an alternative.

Been around a long time and easy to deal with.

YMMV
 
obw said:
Unfortunately my AP doesn't do overhauls. He said he'd check his network of shops to see who might be able to do it, but I have have a feeling I'll need to cast the net wide to get lucky.
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Your A&P has to call around for engine work? My A&P found a chunk of aluminum the size of a thumbnail off the accessory case in a screen on my dad's io540. One call to Poplar Grove and they knew exactly where to tell him to look. Accessory case had to be sent off to Divco for welding. Was sent back and found out divco never did the final machining and had to be sent back again. That was a 4 month annual.

Looks like they might have one ready and could exchange?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...del=O-360-A4M&listing_id=990154&s-type=engine
 
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Magman said:
A pit with no spalling seems to indicate the Cam is not making metal.

As others said ; reassemble and monitor.

Screen, filter , oil analysis and static RPM will alert you to condition.

Flushing the sump with solvent and draining through a paint strainer

is yet another tool.

I hope you have an Engine Dryer to protect your investment.
Click to expand...

I don't think the cam is making metal. There was no sign of anything other than aluminum in the filter, and I sent an oil sample out for testing at the last oil change and all values were in the normal range.

I don't have an engine dryer but try to fly weekly if I can.
 
idahoflier said:
So sorry you have to deal with yet another problem. You didn't mention the TSMOH so that would factor into the decision to overhaul or IRAN. Also, if you go with a Lycoming rebuild you will get roller lifters so that should be a consideration as well. I had a Penn Yan overhaul a little over two years ago and have been happy with it. You're relatively close to them so could save a bit on shipping if you took care of it yourself...
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Thanks. My AP mentioned Penn Yan so I'm sure he'll call them on Monday. The engine is about 1300 TSMOH, last done in 1996
 
Racerx said:
Your A&P has to call around for engine work? My A&P found a chunk of aluminum the size of a thumbnail off the accessory case in a screen on my dad's io540. One call to Poplar Grove and they knew exactly where to tell him to look. Accessory case had to be sent off to Divco for welding. Was sent back and found out divco never did the final machining and had to be sent back again. That was a 4 month annual.

Looks like they might have one ready and could exchange?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...del=O-360-A4M&listing_id=990154&s-type=engine
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That's great. I'll send them an email to see if there is one in stock.
 
Country Flier said:
@obw your sole job here at POA should be to comment on every one of these posts where guys come here asking about aircraft loans and think that the big expense in airplanes is the purchase price.

Nothing to add other than I feel for ya...
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I was wondering recently how long it lakes the average aircraft owner to think in terms of AMUs rather than dollars. For me, it was a very quick transition!
 
First of all I'm sorry you’re having a bad experience. Couple of thoughts. Rather than trying to get an overhaul, have you considered a zero time factory remain, or a new engine? Have you checked AirPower? Lastly, did you happen to get a prebuy evaluation on these airplanes? I’ve done a number prebuys over the past few years. Very detailed and not cheap, but I’ve always saved the customer way more than I cost them. Most importantly they get a good idea of the condition and what to expect going forward.
 
They are cheap to bury or make.

from what I’ve seen they are well worth it.
 
Jdm said:
First of all I'm sorry you’re having a bad experience. Couple of thoughts. Rather than trying to get an overhaul, have you considered a zero time factory remain, or a new engine? Have you checked AirPower? Lastly, did you happen to get a prebuy evaluation on these airplanes? I’ve done a number prebuys over the past few years. Very detailed and not cheap, but I’ve always saved the customer way more than I cost them. Most importantly they get a good idea of the condition and what to expect going forward.
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Thanks. I'm trying to get a sense of what options are available, and I did contact AirPower. Unfortunately the lead time for a Lycoming overhaul, rebuild or new engine is at least 26 weeks. My mechanic let me know when I bought the plane that I'd need to get some engine work done within a few years, but we were hoping it would be a replacement cylinder or a top (and I was hoping it would be later than sooner).
 
Button it up, run it around the pattern an hour, check filter. Then if ok, fly for a few hours and check again. Maybe order your engine in the meantime. Ground the plane if necessary.

I’m only some guy on the internet though. Sounds like the reason for the cylinder pull was the alum sliver, and a cam lobe pitting issue was discovered after the cyl removal. Arguably, some A&Ps or owners might not have done anything with the filter find, and been airborne again for more hours, not knowing more, and getting more hours out of the mill.

Will the engine fail catastrophically? Maybe not from piston pin plug erosion or a cam pit/lifter spall. But it’s not my life or risk management, you gotta do what feels comfortable for you.
 
What flavor is that Kool-aid?

Important to keep in mind that the factory can and will do things no one

else is allowed to do.

While your engine may provide good service when it is ultimately torn down

you may find it contains defects with the Crank or Case that no reputable

agency would reassemble.

AND it was put together that way!

There are many shops and Techs that turn out a product that

turn out an excellent product as well.


Joe Diblin ( Mr Honest Engine) retired a long time ago.

IMHO much of their Tech Support has gone from “concern & cooperation”

to “ conceal and cover-up”.

Not in all cases; but often enough to leave a bad taste.
 
Magman said:
What flavor is that Kool-aid?

Important to keep in mind that the factory can and will do things no one

else is allowed to do.

While your engine may provide good service when it is ultimately torn down

you may find it contains defects with the Crank or Case that no reputable

agency would reassemble.

AND it was put together that way!

There are many shops and Techs that turn out a product that

turn out an excellent product as well.


Joe Diblin ( Mr Honest Engine) retired a long time ago.

IMHO much of their Tech Support has gone from “concern & cooperation”

to “ conceal and cover-up”.

Not in all cases; but often enough to leave a bad taste.
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I really wish you could figure out why your posts are formatted so oddly. The spacing makes it hard to follow.

In my head rain mans voice is reading all your posts.
 
To get roller lifters the engine has to go back to Lycoming. I don't believe anyone else is doing the necessary case rework for it.

It also requires a different cam.
 
texasclouds said:
Do you have a picture of the shavings?
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Unfortunately not. I did see them though - they were thin shards of aluminum, about 5-10 mm in length and the thickness smaller than thin sewing needle
 
Mtns2Skies said:
If money isn't an issue and you're trying to limit downtime, I'd say do both. Get your engine up and running ASAP and in the meantime go buy a new engine and hope yours lasts until you get a new engine in.
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I did this, put my original motor back together and flew it while I waited for the lycoming rebuilt motor to show up.

My advise would be put yours back together and fly it before ordering the replacement. Because mine ran so well after being put back together I experienced buyer remorse because my motor would have run hundreds of more hours. I was worried about the cam and lifters un necessary.

Got any pictures of your cam?
 
Gary Ward said:
I did this, put my original motor back together and flew it while I waited for the lycoming rebuilt motor to show up.

My advise would be put yours back together and fly it before ordering the replacement. Because mine ran so well after being put back together I experienced buyer remorse because my motor would have run hundreds of more hours. I was worried about the cam and lifters un necessary.

Got any pictures of your cam?
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Here it is...
 

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