I got an official letter from the State Department of Transportation

[Trapper John]

Could someone please tell me whether the state even has the legal authority to issue this requirement?

The form has this reference: 2909.32 (A)(2)(b) of the Ohio Revised Code

(A)(1) The director of public safety shall adopt rules in accordance with Chapter 119. of the Revised Code to identify licenses the state issues for which a holder with a connection to a terrorist organization would present a potential risk to the residents of this state. The rules shall not identify a renewable driver’s license or permit as a license of this nature if the applicant is a resident of this state.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2909.32

Why do they exempt resident driver licenses from this scrutiny? Seems to me if they are trying to root out terrists, they'd find 'em better this way, since more people have driver licenses than planes.


Trapper John

 

[alaskaflyer]

The form has this reference: 2909.32 (A)(2)(b) of the Ohio Revised Code

(A)(1) The director of public safety shall adopt rules in accordance with Chapter 119. of the Revised Code to identify licenses the state issues for which a holder with a connection to a terrorist organization would present a potential risk to the residents of this state. The rules shall not identify a renewable driver’s license or permit as a license of this nature if the applicant is a resident of this state.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2909.32

Why do they exempt resident driver licenses from this scrutiny? Seems to me if they are trying to root out terrists, they'd find 'em better this way, since more people have driver licenses than planes.


Trapper John

What about barbers ?Anyone making sure the barbers self-certify?

 

[Greebo]

From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

That's federal, is it not?

I'm talking about:

They said that [my State airplane registration] has to be carried in the aircraft at all times.

CAN the State require you to register your airplane? That's the FAA's domain, isn't it?

 

[Greebo]

Why do they exempt resident driver licenses from this scrutiny? Seems to me if they are trying to root out terrists, they'd find 'em better this way, since more people have driver licenses than planes.

Didn't read the OP?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That's federal, is it not?

I'm talking about:


CAN the State require you to register your airplane? That's the FAA's domain, isn't it?

I don't think it is EXCLUSIVELY their domain. Iowa has a registration, but I think it is more a tax thing. State has to get their pound of flesh too.

 

[Greebo]

I don't think it is EXCLUSIVELY their domain. Iowa has a registration, but I think it is more a tax thing. State has to get their pound of flesh too.

I'm not questioning their ability to tax it (at least, not outside of SZ) - but to require a registration seems to be going out of bounds.

 

[Trapper John]

What about barbers ?Anyone making sure the barbers self-certify?

Since barbers are experts with sharp objects like scissors and razors, I'd certainly hope so! Same with beauticians...

But seriously, I really can't understand the driver license exemption. Unless the Ohio legislature realized the universal response at the license bureau would be, "WTF are you talking about?"

Either way it seems discriminatory to me. Pilots/aircraft owners are a threat, but drivers aren't? Might be a good basis for a court challenge...


Trapper John

 

[dmccormack]

What about barbers ?Anyone making sure the barbers self-certify?

Firearms purchasers do:

http://www.atf.gov/applications/e4473/documents/eform-4473-user-manual.pdf

 

[ScottM]

I'm not questioning their ability to tax it (at least, not outside of SZ) - but to require a registration seems to be going out of bounds.

I don't have an answer for you but Illinois also requires registration and requires that a sticker be placed on the aircraft showing that registration.

 

[Trapper John]

Didn't read the OP?

Yes, I did. Why do you ask?


Trapper John

 

[dmccormack]

That's federal, is it not?

Ooops. Thought you meant the "State" writ large.

CAN the State require you to register your airplane? That's the FAA's domain, isn't it?

Sure! It's personal property, and can be tagged, labelled, certified -- whatever -- if the states' tax code so deems.

 

[EppyGA]

The problem with playing the anecdotal evidence card is that the next card played is a face card, like, "OK, how many liberals have bombed clinics and killed doctors?" which leads to the difficult decision to call, raise or fold...

What's happening here in the effort to put this guy into someone else's philosophical/political camp is the psychological phenomonon of making the perpetrator as different from ourselves as we possibly can, thereby helping guarantee ourselves that we would never do such a thing. Same thing as when some schmoe buys the farm, and we convince ourselves that wouldn't happen to us because of our superior aeronautical skill, planning, judgement and so on.


Trapper John

Understood

 

[Greebo]

Yes, I did. Why do you ask?

Cause I was asking about airplane registrations and you answered with a post about autos.

 

[Greebo]

Sure! It's personal property, and can be tagged, labelled, certified -- whatever -- if the states' tax code so deems.

Hmm. So I guess requiring registration doesn't interfere with or supersede the FAA's national control over aircraft cause the state isn't telling him how to fly/maintain it etc., just requiring it be registered.

Oi.

 

[Trapper John]

Cause I was asking about airplane registrations and you answered with a post about autos.

The part I quoted was the Ohio statute that empowers the state to require the "i'm not a terrist" declaration part of the Ohio aircraft registration document.

What I found interesting was the same statute specifically exempts that same set of questions being included in driver license applications/renewals. Makes no sense at all to me, and also appears to be discriminatory.


Trapper John

 

[Greebo]

Oh I didn't care a bit about the "I'm not a terrorist" crap - just the registration bit.

 

[Trapper John]

Ah, gotcha...

I guess it's the same authority that lets states charge sales tax on aircraft sales and personal property tax on aircraft value, even though aircraft operation is governed by the FARs.


Trapper John

 

[steingar]

I don't mind the tax at all. The state maintains airports in every county, I appreciate it. But having to have the registration for machine controlled by the Federal Government seemed out of place. Oh well, at least I'll have something with which I can wipe my perennially runny nose.

 

[silver-eagle]

Oh I didn't care a bit about the "I'm not a terrorist" crap - just the registration bit.

The registration is their form of taxation and proof that said tax was paid. In Ma, any aircraft in the state for more than 30 days has to be registered (ie: paid up). It's more like an excise tax or user fee versus an aircraft registration since, that wouldn't be in their domain, that's federal.
Take a look at what the state of Washington is trying to do. Rather than continue the registration fees now in place, they would like to tax aircraft based on 0.5% value ANNUALLY. So the airplane owners costs (for a single engine a/c) goes up from $165 to as much as $5,000 or more.
We're all either rich playboys or terrorists. They all want a piece of us.

 

[alaskaflyer]

What does operation have to do with registration and vice versa?

Why and how would state registration interfere with the powers retained by the federal government?

Where is it codified that the United States of America retains exclusive sovereignty over national civil aircraft?

All good questions.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Okay, so whose gonna check the 'yes' boxes off to see what happens just for sh*ts and giggles.

This reminds me of a funny story that I heard last weekend.

Mike, a former student of Rick's and now an MD-11 pilot for UPS, had applied to the FFDO (Federal Flight Deck Officer) program to be able to carry a gun in the cockpit. This comes with the full FBI background check, and Mike put Rick down as a reference.

When the FBI guy called Rick, he asked a bunch of questions, and the last was "Have you ever known Mr. P____ to use bad judgement?" Rick said, simply, "Yes." The FBI guy asked him to explain the circumstances of said bad judgement. Rick replied, "Well, he has season tickets for the Lions, and he actually goes to the games." I bet the FBI doesn't normally get such a good laugh. (And yes, the agent did have a sense of humor and at least a passing knowledge of football, thankfully!)

 

[TangoWhiskey]

When the FBI guy called Rick, he asked a bunch of questions, and the last was "Have you ever known Mr. P____ to use bad judgement?" Rick said, simply, "Yes." The FBI guy asked him to explain the circumstances of said bad judgement. Rick replied, "Well, he has season tickets for the Lions, and he actually goes to the games." I bet the FBI doesn't normally get such a good laugh. (And yes, the agent did have a sense of humor and at least a passing knowledge of football, thankfully!)

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Well, he was. Domestic terrorist, just like Timothy McVeigh. Doesn't mean he's Al Qaeda. But he had an agenda, a plan, and bungled out a violent attack on innocents. That's a terrorist.

Fixed it for ya.

If you step back and look at it, it was pretty ineffective in spite of the fact that he was able to carry out his plan unimpeded. Amy Bishop got three times as many. Charles Whitman killed 14 right there in Austin. A 400 year old minaret collapses due to heavy rain and kills 41. A drunk driver kills someone every 45 minutes.

Small aircraft are urine poor weapons of mass destruction.

 

[weilke]

The incident in Austin was a classic 'rampage killing' and not terrorism. This guys motivation and twisted personality was not any different than the folks who walk into their former place of employment and shoot anyone in sight.

 

[timwinters]

As seen at the 9/12/09 DC Tea Party gathering...

Harmless expression of First Amendment rights, or a threat? I dunno. But I can't say that I've seen similar sentiment at traditional left-wing protests...


Trapper John

Personally, I find it simultaneously humorous, sad and disgusting that there are so many people who proclaim “patriotism” and yet seem to be completely clueless of the laws and codes of our land. Specifically in this case, the US Flag Code.

It's not rocket science to educate yourself. Well, for this guy, I guess it is.

 

[weilke]

Personally, I find it simultaneously humorous, sad and disgusting that there are so many people who proclaim “patriotism” and yet seem to be completely clueless of the laws and codes of our land. Specifically in this case, the US Flag Code.

Yeah, and he seems to lack understanding of the word 'peaceably' as in the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Fixed it for ya.

If you step back and look at it, it was pretty ineffective in spite of the fact that he was able to carry out his plan unimpeded. Amy Bishop got three times as many. Charles Whitman killed 14 right there in Austin. A 400 year old minaret collapses due to heavy rain and kills 41. A drunk driver kills someone every 45 minutes.

Small aircraft are urine poor weapons of mass destruction.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't have some arbitrary line after which the body count is too high. He did kill somebody other than himself; one innocent victim's death is just as bad as two or twenty. If you feel otherwise, I invite you to sit with that victim's family and explain it to them.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't have some arbitrary line after which the body count is too high. He did kill somebody other than himself; one innocent victim's death is just as bad as two or twenty. If you feel otherwise, I invite you to sit with that victim's family and explain it to them.

I'd rather have to talk to one family than twenty...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't have some arbitrary line after which the body count is too high. He did kill somebody other than himself; one innocent victim's death is just as bad as two or twenty. If you feel otherwise, I invite you to sit with that victim's family and explain it to them.

Yes, you have to feel bad for the person killed, the injured and their families. But I am glad the death toll wasn't a lot worse.

A lot of people are alive today because of this guys poor choice of weapon.

 

[steingar]

Yes, you have to feel bad for the person killed, the injured and their families. But I am glad the death toll wasn't a lot worse.

A lot of people are alive today because of this guys poor choice of weapon.

Too true. The appropriate firearm, a van full of explosives, the correct toxin administered in the right place at the right time, the list goes on. We're beginning to see that an airplane would be the poorest weapon but for the publicity they generate. Unfortunately, the publicity is often the most important thing for those who commit such acts.

 

[Mason]

I still don't understand whether the state actually has legal authority to place the requirements upon the OP that they have.

Aircraft are federally regulated, not state or locally.

Tell it to the guy who landed on the frozen lake near Minneapolis for lunch and got busted by the locals. <G>:smile: