I failed my Initial Commercial Multi Checkride Oral- ACS Standards?

As far as legitimacy of the questions, does the ACS state that questions have to be specific to the aircraft used for the checkride?

As far as not knowing the answers, you’re claiming the time, you should have a reasonable knowledge of the airplane. The questions you mentioned really aren’t that deep.
 
Have you used this examiner before? Who knows what happened but sounds like a bad day and a bit of an ego competition. Be humble, offer the opportunity to look up the answers and mention where and how you’d find them instead of guessing. I would be thrown off if being questioned on another aircraft too, I do fly different types of aircraft but it doesn’t mean I memorized everything about each one either.
 
Probablyflying said:
I have. He was incredibly kind and very respectable. I actually went out of my way and spent an extra 600$ to use him.
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So what happened?
Get all of your data for the planes you flown and try again. The oral checkride is open book.
 
Probablyflying said:
Going with a different examiner monday. He told me he does not care about previous flight experience. It’s only there to satisfy requirements. He told me he will only ask about the plane I’m taking the ride in.
I won’t go back to that guy after he yelled at me for an hour about how I don’t deserve to be a commercial pilot lol
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Why post about it if you already have a plan and have formulated an opinion of the examiner?
 
I think the examiner was absolutely correct. Duties of PIC time means there is a CFI on board in an aircraft you otherwise are fully capable of flying solo. This means you know the POH, systems, ect.
 
Pick yourself up, study hard, and try again with another examiner. Better show up being able to talk about the planes you log time in.
 
Probablyflying said:
Duties of pic. Mei is in the plane but just observes. Insurance doesn’t allow multi solos generally.
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How do you do the duties of PIC without knowing enough about the airplane’s systems to describe them, even in very general terms?

Based on your description, it sounds to me like the examiner noticed a distinct lack of professionalism from someone who wants to be a professional pilot.
 
When I interview someone for an engineering job, they can expect to be quizzed about anything they wrote on their resume. If you say you have done something it's fair game for detailed questions.

Same thing here.
 
Well I’m certainly happy they didn’t ask questions about types I flew in the past. There were numerous, and some were years before the checkride (using ATP as a reference. Did in a Seneca… assuming type rides don’t count for questions about other planes).
Who remembers a V speed from a plane they flew 10 years ago?

Personally I think he was just a jerk.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well I’m certainly happy they didn’t ask questions about types I flew in the past. There were numerous, and some were years before the checkride (using ATP as a reference. Did in a Seneca… assuming type rides don’t count for questions about other planes).
Who remembers a V speed from a plane they flew 10 years ago?

Personally I think he was just a jerk.
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Apparently remembering V speeds from an airplane you flew last week, and intend to continue flying, is unreasonable, too.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Apparently remembering V speeds from an airplane you flew last week, and intend to fly again, is unreasonable, too.
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Where is the cutoff? And although I’m not typed in the CE-525, my guess is the CJ does not publish a Vno.
 
Kritchlow said:
Where is the cutoff? And although I’m not typed in the CE-525, my guess is the CJ does not publish a Vno.
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I don’t know where the cutoff is, but stating that the airplane was there to fulfill the requirements of “duties of PIC”, but it’s only XC time and one doesn’t need to know the systems seems like a pretty good indicator to me.
 
We're only hearing one side. The DPE may have had good reason to suspect some exaggeration of experience
 
MauleSkinner said:
I don’t know where the cutoff is, but stating that the airplane was there to fulfill the requirements of “duties of PIC”, but it’s only XC time and one doesn’t need to know the systems seems like a pretty good indicator to me.
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I do not completely disagree. Not saying this was the case with the OP, but I do feel there is too much time logging under the guise of instruction, or a right seat guy who works at the FBO and dumps the lav in exchange for right seat time (without truly learning the airplane).
 
MauleSkinner said:
As far as legitimacy of the questions, does the ACS state that questions have to be specific to the aircraft used for the checkride?
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Not only that, but you are required to talk about and have knowledge about systems and conditions that you may never have been anywhere near.
Over water commercial ops, part 91 ops vs part 135, Icing, FIKI, Pressurization, Medical Factors, Endorsements for High Altitude...

Oh hell, even departure and arrival procedures in the midwest. (Which you won't get until you are well into the Teens, so turboprops or maybe turbo pistons..)

But then again, the OP deleted their post. So who knows?
 
Kritchlow said:
Well I’m certainly happy they didn’t ask questions about types I flew in the past. There were numerous, and some were years before the checkride (using ATP as a reference. Did in a Seneca… assuming type rides don’t count for questions about other planes).
Who remembers a V speed from a plane they flew 10 years ago?

Personally I think he was just a jerk.
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Perhaps he didn't remember anything else about the plane? How much time did he log in this plane? Was it 1 hour or 100, and how much did he know.

We will never know.
 
When I took my PP checkride, I was flying a Tecnam LSA that had a G3X Touch; no steam gauges. But that didn't stop the DPE from asking me about vacuum systems. I was on Basic Med, but he still asked about renewals for a Class 3.
 
Half Fast said:
When I took my PP checkride, I was flying a Tecnam LSA that had a G3X Touch; no steam gauges. But that didn't stop the DPE from asking me about vacuum systems. I was on Basic Med, but he still asked about renewals for a Class 3.
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It's almost like you were tested for your license, and not what you brought that day?
 
I'm not as hard over as some of the others on being able to remember every detail of every airplane you've ever flown. But if I remember the OP's case, he or she had been flying a 414 as PDPIC to count for some of the training hours, though they took the checkride in a Seneca. Well, for "performing the duties as PIC", the CFI is intended to sit there and not do anything or help. So, if you're logging PDPIC, you should be fully capable of flying the airplane yourself, you just have the CFI along for insurance purposes.

And being that it was recent time (if I remember right) and specifically being used toward the checkride requirements, I think it's completely fair game for questions on a checkride. Otherwise it very much does seem like padding. That time-building to meet the Comm requirements is supposed to be valuable time, not just checking a box by riding along and questionably logging it as PDPIC. I think the DPE was right to probe a little deeper and see if that was "real" time or just slightly more legit than pencil-whipping time.

There was also the issue of some time in a CJ. I forget how recent this was, but I feel that's a little different case (as long as they weren't trying to log it as PDPIC). There are a whole ton of pilots who have a couple hours of instruction in a CJ - it wouldn't be PIC time or even PDPIC time, but if the CJ is being flown single-pilot and the pilot is an MEI, then some "intro to jet operations"-type instruction is perfectly legal and can be useful training even if the trainee doesn't know everything about all the systems and speeds and whatever. And if the applicant does want to go on and fly CJs, they're going to have to get a type rating anyway, so they'll learn all that stuff in detail. So I think the DPE seeing an hour or two of CJ training and then asking anything more than "how was that? fun?" is out of place.

Of course, we heard only one side of the story, so who knows.
 
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Deelee said:
Uh oh. Did you reboot? Make sure it was plugged in?

Always intriguing when people delete the post, but leave the topic up... What was the issue with this guy?
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Yeah, I need to get into the habit of quoting the original post so it can’t disappear.....
;)
 
I legitimately used some glider cross country hours for my commercial and ATP certificates. It's been awhile, but I don't remember a single question in either oral about glider ops. (Just trying to put a little levity in this thread that has gone off the rails as most eventually do.)
 
Lance F said:
I legitimately used some glider cross country hours for my commercial and ATP certificates. It's been awhile, but I don't remember a single question in either oral about glider ops. (Just trying to put a little levity in this thread that has gone off the rails as most eventually do.)
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And this is why I'd make a lousy DPE. I'd see that in your application and would spend the rest of the checkride being fascinated and asking you all about glider cross country flying.
 
RussR said:
I'm not as hard over as some of the others on being able to remember every detail of every airplane you've ever flown. But if I remember the OP's case, he or she had been flying a 414 as PDPIC to count for some of the training hours, though they took the checkride in a Seneca. Well, for "performing the duties as PIC", the CFI is intended to sit there and not do anything or help. So, if you're logging PDPIC, you should be fully capable of flying the airplane yourself, you just have the CFI along for insurance purposes.

And being that it was recent time (if I remember right) and specifically being used toward the checkride requirements, I think it's completely fair game for questions on a checkride. Otherwise it very much does seem like padding. That time-building to meet the Comm requirements is supposed to be valuable time, not just checking a box by riding along and questionably logging it as PDPIC. I think the DPE was right to probe a little deeper and see if that was "real" time or just slightly more legit than pencil-whipping time.

There was also the issue of some time in a CJ. I forget how recent this was, but I feel that's a little different case (as long as they weren't trying to log it as PDPIC). There are a whole ton of pilots who have a couple hours of instruction in a CJ - it wouldn't be PIC time or even PDPIC time, but if the CJ is being flown single-pilot and the pilot is an MEI, then some "intro to jet operations"-type instruction is perfectly legal and can be useful training even if the trainee doesn't know everything about all the systems and speeds and whatever. And if the applicant does want to go on and fly CJs, they're going to have to get a type rating anyway, so they'll learn all that stuff in detail. So I think the DPE seeing an hour or two of CJ training and then asking anything more than "how was that? fun?" is out of place.

Of course, we heard only one side of the story, so who knows.
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One wonders how much differently this would have gone had the DPE asked the Vno in the CJ and the applicant answered, "I don't know that but if the plane has a published Vno we can find it in the POH. It definitely climbs better than the Seneca we're flying today!" The applicant here just gave his best guesses at the questions he didn't know. That fits into the hazardous attitudes that the FAA probably wants examiners to nip in the bud.

Of course, the real problem here was the 414 time. His boss is an MEI with a 414 who let the applicant log 10 hours of DPIC from the right seat, all in cruise, specifically for the purpose of getting to the check ride with less expense than actually paying for an airplane and instructor. If you're willing to pad your logbook like that, who's to say that you haven't done the same in other places?
 
Lance F said:
I legitimately used some glider cross country hours for my commercial and ATP certificates. It's been awhile, but I don't remember a single question in either oral about glider ops. (Just trying to put a little levity in this thread that has gone off the rails as most eventually do.)
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Using time earned in a different category wasn’t the situation here. Basically, the OP had a lot of time logged as dual received in cabin class twins without having a multi rating. While it isn’t uncommon to see some time logged that way, I’d consider it uncommon to have 100+ hours like that and holding no multi rating. Reading between the lines, I suspect the DPE assumed that the OP was sitting right seat and maybe running the radios while his boss was doing the flying. Since the OP was trying to earn a commercial certificate and was expected to know about things such as aircraft systems, limitations, and aeromedical factors, the DPE decided to ask about things related to other aircraft the OP was claiming time in, likely to check some boxes in the ACS and also determine if the OP was actually flying the airplane or just logging the time.

Admittedly, I don’t know that I could list off things like all the V speeds for every aircraft I regularly perfectly, so I can feel for the OP there. But I can most certainly get close on them and I can tell you about the systems for all the aircraft I regularly fly and many I don’t.

Id be curious to hear the DPE’s side of the story on this. I’m betting that if we knew his story, we’d find that he was being at least somewhat reasonable.
 
Probablyflying said:
Hey all!
So this may be a bit of a long story but I got a lot of useful info last time so thought I’d post this on here. To give some background, my situation is a little unique. I have my ppl and IR single engine. I have about 150 hours of multi time, mostly dual received. I work for a part 91 operation washing/cleaning airplanes and get to sit right seat on certain trips. My boss is a gold seal MEI and this time is 100% legit.
I trained with a flight school as he was too busy to do my training but he allowed me to log 10 hours duties of pic in a Cessna 414 to save some money for the rating. Everything else was all dual and satisfied the xc requirements etc. The time includes 414, conquest, and CJ time.

So fast forward to the day of the checkride. This examiner was suspended for teaching someone how to do a steep turn on a checkride (rumor) and recently reinstated. I did my IR with him and he was very fair and a very respectful guy. Unlike a lot of DPE’s, he wasn’t a total jerk and wanted you to pass.

So myself and my Instructor walk in and his wife takes my logbook and documents (she adds all the totals up and verifies it) and we wait. My logbook was tabbed with a legend and I was very organized. 10 minutes go by and he comes strolling out asking about my multi time. I kinda expected this as it’s a bit uncommon. I respectfully explained my situation and he had a upset look on his face. He starts asking me “what kind of engines are on the 414?” or “what’s the differential on it?” and “what’s the Vno of the CJ1?”. I was fully not expecting this. I answered the questions to the best of my knowledge but they weren’t right apparently. I was extremely prepared to be quizzed on the Seneca as it was what I was taking the test in. He then proceeds to say “you were in the airplane right?” in a very derogatory tone of voice. I looked at him very confused and said “of course. I wouldn’t log time and it wouldn’t be signed off it I wasn’t?”. He says “do I need to call the FAA and have them look into whether this is legit?”. I told him no and I could call the MEI and he can look him up on the registry. I have pictures of the aircrafts I’m flying etc.
He seems to let it go and we begin the test. He asks me for my performance calculations and I give them to him based on the Seneca. One number was 50ft off due to the winds has picked up at the airport. I told him I did them about an hour ago and he goes “you didn’t do these numbers. Your cfi did.” I look at him confused again and flat out say “no sir. I did them.”
He asks for all the inspections and I show him. Again very organized with a tabbed out binder and dates on when they’re next due. I tell him the VOR is not current as students aren’t allowed to do the check. He tears into me and goes on a rant about how that’s bs and I’m just lazy. I was unaware the vor needed to be current for a *vfr* checkride. I start getting this feeling of he is not going to pass me and clearly doesn’t like my multi time.

We move on and start discussing pressurization. But he doesn’t want to know about the Seneca. He wants to know about the 414. He asks how the system works and I tell him the basics of it. He asks where the bleed air comes from and I say it comes off the engines. Again he gets very upset and starts yelling. I was technically right. It comes off the engines. He was looking for turbos as the answer. Then he wants to know the 5 types of donning masks. I knew the quick donning one but that was it. He then wanted to know the certification time for how fast you have to put it on in the event of a rapid decompression. I tell him 5 seconds. He asks “5 seconds from where?” and I looked at him puzzled. The answer was from the cradle. He tells me “usually I can only ask basic pressurization questions but since you have time in these aircrafts I can ask whatever I want.”
I would like to know if that is true and see it in writing but he couldn’t tell me.
Then he moves onto CJ systems. He wants to know the type ailerons and who makes the engines. Now at this point I should have discontinued. And I will kick myself for not doing that for a long time.
Once I said I wasn’t sure he said he would give me a notice of Disapproval.
He proceeded to drill me on the inverted V scan and said I would die if I ever went into hard IMC. (What?). I told him I have over 20 hours of actual time as pic. He said it “probably wasn’t actual imc”.
He yells at me for about an hour and finally lets me leave.
So with all that. What should I do? Should I put a call into the fsdo or let it go? Was he in the clear to ask anything about the aircrafts I’ve logged dual. I understand I logged duties of pic in the 414 but it was 10 hours of xc and not systems training.
Something I can’t get over- in the 3 hours I sat there, he did not ask me a SINGLE Seneca question. Not one.
Still in shock and that whole ordeal costed me 1000$ plus 400$ to bring the plane over to his airport. Life lesson for sure but very curious what others would do.
Sorry this little story was so long but appreciate any advice you guys have.
thanks much!
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Well that is disappointing.
 
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