I can't make sense of this crash

hindsight2020 said:
Smooth pull up. Birds tuck and dive, as such, never dive the airplane, always pull up. Hopefully that leads to a strike on the nose or underside of the fuse, and not the flimsy plastic shield between that cannon ball and your most likely helmet-less nugget.
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Although eagles have been known to climb towards airplanes.
 
Seems like the basic upset - unusual attitude recovery from IFR training could be put to good use.
 
Need to mention the massive increase in drag that a windshield strike adds to flight. Know a C150 that survived a strike on final.
 
This one is a better show of the bird reflex to dive. I didn't embed it only because it contains NSFW profanity. You can see the bird reacts quickly then realized tucking wont work, so it goes wings out again and accepts its fate. That's the coffin corner, bird slightly above your eyeline. The birds dive or stay, you don't have enough time to put your nose and belly into it as a shield, and it goes right into your nugget. I can't show you the video of the guy who decided to dive instead, as that one is safety privileged and was never released to the youboobers, but it's a real close call. As I say, homeboi left one of his main wheels stuck in a chainlink fence, if that tells you anything.

At any rate, that video is also pretty textbook canopy breach in our fleet, and has resulted in fatalities associated with impact loss of consciousness. The issuance of the thicker windshield forward of the canopy lid was also a result of the aircraft fatalities resultant of front occupant loss of consciousness. Our current threat is mostly now centered around the actual canopy lid, which still retains the old thin specs, with the forward windshield being the thicker spec. You can still get smacked pretty good in the back, and people have as recently as a few years ago.

Last bird related loss was in Oklahoma leading to ejection due to dual hydraulic failure as a result of ingestion damage that lead to a fire that burned through both system lines. But that one was not a canopy breach.

In any event, yeah, birds tuck and dive. Repeatable enough behavior to warrant that generic advice I proffered earlier. I don't fly with a helmet on in GA, so my only recourse is tucking under the panel. It's a mediocre plan, but it's at much slower speeds than I fly in the -38, and I already consider the acceptance of flying my lawnmower a mediocre life choice in the first place, so the imprudence is a sunk cost *shrugs*. I am considering helmet wear once I get into the RV, since I plan on doing acro and formation work, along with parachute wear for formation, given the higher mid air collision risk. The bird resistance benefit to helmet wear would be ancillary.
 
Piperonca said:
Noggin?
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lol, I've been eyeballin' the beef tips the weef left on the pressure cooker all morning before she bailed for her hospital shift. I'm sure Freud would have a few things about my sudden infatuation with nuggets. Oh and the kid is hungry, did I mentioned #bossbabe left for work? Guess what the kid is screaming for....chicken nuggets :rofl:
 
Bell206 said:
The bird does not have to enter the cockpit to wreak havoc. The pic below is the result of a hawk hitting the windshield, breaking it but didnt enter the cockpit. 2 ATP pilots up front, full glass, 4 axis autopilot (engaged), and a digital CVRFDR. Took the crew 4-5 seconds to react which was too late by then. Very possible the CFI and student rode it down fully aware of their predicament like this crew did.

As to structural failure every aircraft has it limits. Plenty of reports of wings or tail feathers being ripped off in desperation.

View attachment 120954
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The issue here was that the bird took out the engine control levers on the overhead console and pushed them into the stop position. The engines shut down while the pilots were dealing with the smashed windshield. From that incident, the company mandated glass windshields for the S-76 fleet.

I flew those same aircraft...
 
WDD said:
What is the best course of action if you get hit by a 16 lb bird at 100 mph? I would say just keeping away from abrupt sizable control movements would get you safely on the ground.

Even further, if bird hit is imminent it’s better to take the hit vs a hard maneuvering to avoid.

What say the collective? Other POV?
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I hit a giant vulture with the forward pylon in a Chinook and that bird was the size of a large dog. If it had hit three feet lower, I would have probably been killed.

Luckily the repairs to the sheetmetal and workstand were were done quickly and the helicopter put back into service in two days.

There was nothing we could do to avoid the feathered missile. We didn't see it until it came through the rotor system.

Of course, a lighter aircraft might have been knocked out of the sky...
 
hindsight2020 said:
lol, I've been eyeballin' the beef tips the weef left on the pressure cooker all morning before she bailed for her hospital shift. I'm sure Freud would have a few things about my sudden infatuation with nuggets. Oh and the kid is hungry, did I mentioned #bossbabe left for work? Guess what the kid is screaming for....chicken nuggets :rofl:
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Understand now, thanks! You have an inimitable stream of consciousness writing style so it makes perfect sense in that context.

Regarding the thread topic, one of my best friends went through T-38 training on his way to flying KC-135s. He told me he was terrified of bird strikes. And this was a man that didn't scare easily.
 
IK04 said:
I hit a giant vulture with the forward pylon in a Chinook and that bird was the size of a large dog. If it had hit three feet lower, I would have probably been killed.

Luckily the repairs to the sheetmetal and workstand were were done quickly and the helicopter put back into service in two days.

There was nothing we could do to avoid the feathered missile. We didn't see it until it came through the rotor system.

Of course, a lighter aircraft might have been knocked out of the sky...
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Just wait until the drone swarms get popular. That's going to be a free-for-all in the sky.
 
IK04 said:
The issue here was that the bird took out the engine control levers on the overhead console and pushed them into the stop position. The engines shut down while the pilots were dealing with the smashed windshield
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Actually it was a new C++ so no N1 teleflex cables to the throttle quadrant which was left intact by the impact. Theres pics of it. The problem was there were no FLY detents as the levers with FADECs are only a potentiometers now. So the bird impact jarred both levers back to about 85% N1 if I recall and not to cutoff. Per the FDR engines ran at that level till ground impact. After the accident, FLY detents were retro'd into all C++s to prevent that movement by Sikorsky.

As to the windshields, C++ came stock with glass but a customer request to reduce weight led to a STC approval for acrylic winshields. After the accident all 76s were converted back to glass to include on other operater aircraft.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This one is a better show of the bird reflex to dive. I didn't embed it only because it contains NSFW profanity. You can see the bird reacts quickly then realized tucking wont work, so it goes wings out again and accepts its fate. That's the coffin corner, bird slightly above your eyeline. The birds dive or stay, you don't have enough time to put your nose and belly into it as a shield, and it goes right into your nugget. I can't show you the video of the guy who decided to dive instead, as that one is safety privileged and was never released to the youboobers, but it's a real close call. As I say, homeboi left one of his main wheels stuck in a chainlink fence, if that tells you anything.

At any rate, that video is also pretty textbook canopy breach in our fleet, and has resulted in fatalities associated with impact loss of consciousness. The issuance of the thicker windshield forward of the canopy lid was also a result of the aircraft fatalities resultant of front occupant loss of consciousness. Our current threat is mostly now centered around the actual canopy lid, which still retains the old thin specs, with the forward windshield being the thicker spec. You can still get smacked pretty good in the back, and people have as recently as a few years ago.

Last bird related loss was in Oklahoma leading to ejection due to dual hydraulic failure as a result of ingestion damage that lead to a fire that burned through both system lines. But that one was not a canopy breach.

In any event, yeah, birds tuck and dive. Repeatable enough behavior to warrant that generic advice I proffered earlier. I don't fly with a helmet on in GA, so my only recourse is tucking under the panel. It's a mediocre plan, but it's at much slower speeds than I fly in the -38, and I already consider the acceptance of flying my lawnmower a mediocre life choice in the first place, so the imprudence is a sunk cost *shrugs*. I am considering helmet wear once I get into the RV, since I plan on doing acro and formation work, along with parachute wear for formation, given the higher mid air collision risk. The bird resistance benefit to helmet wear would be ancillary.
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IMG_5033.jpeg
 
Bell206 said:
The bird does not have to enter the cockpit to wreak havoc. The pic below is the result of a hawk hitting the windshield, breaking it but didnt enter the cockpit. 2 ATP pilots up front, full glass, 4 axis autopilot (engaged), and a digital CVRFDR. Took the crew 4-5 seconds to react which was too late by then. Very possible the CFI and student rode it down fully aware of their predicament like this crew did.

As to structural failure every aircraft has it limits. Plenty of reports of wings or tail feathers being ripped off in desperation.

View attachment 120954
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Yep, it’s amazing what only a 3 lb bird can do to an aircraft if it hits the wrong place.

www.cbsnews.com

Report: Bird strike caused Camp Pendelton helicopter crash that left 2 Marines dead

AH-1W Cobra attack helicopter collided with a red-tailed hawk, killing the two Marines on board; Report called event unavoidable
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Or a large bird…

 
WDD said:
From how I read the report the cables showed signs of being over stressed that could come from over maneuvering - exceeding control pressure limits.

In my mind unless you’re in a spin, if you basically pulled the power down and let go of the yoke the Skyhawk would get a good bit to stable on its own.

If you’re level or even in a shallow bank and get a bird hit, just doing nothing for a while might be the best option.

Not second guessing the accident victims - just trying to think of what I should do in same situation. Our local airport KRYY has buzzards - turkey vultures that sometimes hang around the approach and departure areas.
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Cable strength in any certified aircraft is well beyond anything a pilot can generate before the airframe breaks. Heck even on the ground you could clamp the elevator and pull as hard as you can on the yoke and your not going to hurt the cables.
 
Dana said:
Good point, if the glass shattered it could very well blind the pilot.
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This was my first thought reading that report. CFI got blinded maybe even told the "discovery flight" kid to pull up and the kid pulled too much or the blinded/injured CFI pulled too much himself.
 
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When I was learning to fly in the Air Force in Arizona, a T-37 hit a buzzard that came through the canopy and killed the instructor. The student, who was pre-solo, landed with the dead IP next to him. He could have ejected, and no one would have blamed him.
 
I've posted here about it before, but years ago I hit a ~10 lb wild turkey while driving ~60-70 (ish) mph. It came across the road at windshield height with no time to avoid; and went through the windshield, bounced off my face, and landed in the left footwell. Despite the glass, blood, and gore (mine and the bird's) all over me and the ensuing chaos I managed to coast to the shoulder essentially blind. I can easily understand how someone experiencing what I went through but in an airplane, even a benign one, might end up in an unusual attitude very quickly, and the resulting overstress does not require much of a logical leap. Had I been in an airplane I don't know if I would have been able to recover, and I'm certain I would not have been able to land with anything resembling control.

turfin bird.png

Nauga,
and the time bird was not the only word
 
There was a B-1 taken out by a bird back in the 80's

www.latimes.com

Freak Collision of Bird, B-1B Caused Crash

A freak collision with a large bird--probably a 15- to 20-pound pelican--brought down a $280-million B-1B bomber on a test flight over Colorado last September, the Air Force said Wednesday in its official investigation report on the accident.
www.latimes.com www.latimes.com
 
...well, better start playing the lotto. #3 jug tries to exorcise itself from the lawnmower two weekends ago, post about birdstrike mitigation potato on Friday, and this ish 72 hours later...

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Missed it again by 6-9 inches. Any higher and this one's a bad day. Vocation or avocation, getting spicy around here. I'm on thin ice with the weef right now (surprised she hasn't stolen my identity already and "hit" submit-all on a airlineapps with both fists :fingerwag: ).

Everybody stay safe out there y'all... find it a bit awkward writing that twice in one week, but hey we all have our placebo.

More importantly, should I play 69, or 6 and 9 for next week's powerball?
 
hindsight2020 said:
..….. I'm on thin ice with the weef right now (surprised she hasn't stolen my identity already and "hit" submit-all on a airlineapps with both fists :fingerwag: )
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She and Sully are both smart enough to know a goose can cook you just as as done in the -38 as in a -738.

hindsight2020 said:
More importantly, should I play 69, or 6 and 9 for next week's powerball?
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6, 9, and 69 of course.
 
hindsight2020 said:
...well, better start playing the lotto. #3 jug tries to exorcise itself from the lawnmower two weekends ago, post about birdstrike mitigation potato on Friday, and this ish 72 hours later...

View attachment 121101
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Missed it again by 6-9 inches. Any higher and this one's a bad day. Vocation or avocation, getting spicy around here. I'm on thin ice with the weef right now (surprised she hasn't stolen my identity already and "hit" submit-all on a airlineapps with both fists :fingerwag: ).

Everybody stay safe out there y'all... find it a bit awkward writing that twice in one week, but hey we all have our placebo.

More importantly, should I play 69, or 6 and 9 for next week's powerball?
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Do you drive a white Bronco by any chance?
 
One of our club members hit a hawk at cruise in a 172. The wind screen "went away" as he told it. He said it took full power to maintain altitude - he was alone. We got a new headliner and glass from in insurance. Maybe one of the pilots in this mishap took a direct hit and the body jammed the controls? Wildly speculative, I know.

I hit a Canada goose at night (I didn't know they flew at night till then) with the left strut on a CAP 172. Looked like two white balls and then impact, maybe half a second from visual to thump, and it was a loud, jarring thump - I felt it. Wasn't sure what I'd hit (or what hit me) until after landing.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
When I was learning to fly in the Air Force in Arizona, a T-37 hit a buzzard that came through the canopy and killed the instructor. The student, who was pre-solo, landed with the dead IP next to him. He could have ejected, and no one would have blamed him.
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And, IIRC, the difference between the T-37A and B was the thicker windshield to reduce the possibility of that happening.

But I remember a Myth Busters about the frozen chicken windshield myth. Only thing was, they got a stock Cherokee fuselage, which had a normal windshield, so it wouldn't stop a non-frozen chicken. :D
 
Pinecone said:
But I remember a Myth Busters about the frozen chicken windshield myth. Only thing was, they got a stock Cherokee fuselage, which had a normal windshield, so it wouldn't stop a non-frozen chicken. :D
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That wasn’t the “only” thing. ;)
 
Tantalum said:
True. But how did they get into a situation to pull the wings off a 172? Yikes
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When I was a student and did unusual attitudes for the first time, I let the airspeed got up to 150 kts. Only happened one time, and the instructor did say something about it. Perhaps that’s what they were doing? (Didn’t read the article).
 
DMD3. said:
When I was a student and did unusual attitudes for the first time, I let the airspeed got up to 150 kts. Only happened one time, and the instructor did say something about it. Perhaps that’s what they were doing? (Didn’t read the article).
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But that's still below Vne (though over Va), and assuming you did not pullup with some huge force above 3 Gs that should be within the design parameters of the plane. Still.. I do wonder about fatigue life when I'm in these 50 year old planes and doing commercial maneuvers, accel stalls, etc.
 
I'm sure we've all seen this.. to go along with my post above; how many adventures over the last 10K+ flight hours did "beat up trainer at club X" plane have an adventure outside the green range..?

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