I can see why some potential students give up flying.

FloridaPilot

FloridaPilot

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I was at an FBO and I overheard a CFI "Light" into his student. He was saying how frustrated he was because he wasn't getting the lessons fast enough. He kept saying how "Behind" the airplane the student was and I felt sorry for him. I look back onto my training and I had an instructor just like that as well all it took was 1 hour to figure out it wasn't working.

I'm still under 100 hours myself so I'm not knowledgeable enough to have given him detailed advice. Not ALL CFI are like that and there are many good ones, but there are some of them out there that like to hear themselves talk and try to embarrass the student to make them feel better about themselves. I can see why some potential students give up because they believe flying is too hard.

* If a CFI was patient with you and gave you all the time you need to learn the lessons, (CFI's get paid by the hour you know) not rush you though. It would be an enjoyable experience for the student. A little more pricey I know but enjoyable nonetheless.

*Take an assessment of the student and figure out what their real goal of flying is, Airlines, Bucket list?...etc Realize the fate of the GA industry is in your hands, the more students learn how to fly the better GA will be.

*CFI's take the student up just to go flying sometime so they can reunite on the reason why they wanted to learn how to fly in the first place and have them use what they learned. All too often they fly to the practice area do the lessons and that is the extent of it. When things are "fun" for the student they are more likely to learn faster. That is why figuring out why they want to learn how to fly is important.

This is just my opinion...what is yours?
 
I think the bigger reason why students give up is because they discover a hole in their pockets, not necessarily the CFI.
 
Ryanb said:
I think the bigger reason why students give up is because they discover a hole in their pockets, not necessarily the CFI.
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That may be possible if you don't know the costs up front. Most schools that I have been to in the past are up front with it!
 
^ that (money aspect)
Most times its money

Also being sensitive has no place in the cockpit, if you think that's bad wait till you make a rookie mistake with a ATC guy or tower controller and get light up, would these same students just "give up" or perhaps start crying?

I've never yelled at a student, or been mean, but I am straight up honest with them, all the way from "damn good work, now to three around the patch" to telling them that I don't see this going anywhere and referring them to another CFI to see if flying is for them.

They are your customer, but gravity and physics have no concerns for ones "feelings"
 
I guess I am the odd one. I actually asked my CFI to be harder on me. I knew I was only flying one day a week at the time and wanted to make the most of my time and money. He never did get any harder on me with my flying, but keep he perfect attitude and teaching skills and I am a Sport Pilot now. I just think each person learns differently and some do require a little smack on the back of the head (if they have agreed to such actions). I wouldn't have wanted a literal smack, but a figurative berating would have reinforced a few things I am sure.
 
FloridaPilot said:
That may be possible if you don't know the costs up front. Most schools that I have been to in the past are up front with it!
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Many do, but most students discontinue their flight training because they cannot keep up with the costs. The CFI does have a big influence on it, but if that's the only hindrance, than they'll simply find another one.

That's just my observation however.
 
First I'd like to say that no one that is learning should be subjected to criticism at the level that you explain. I do however think that you should consider changing the subject line to students giving up. A potential student hasn't started yet so giving up isn't an option. BTW, both CFIs that I had were both patient and excellent.
 
I'll just say that there are some great teachers out there but it's sometimes quite difficult to find them.

I've had quite a few CFI's between my PPL and my CPL (8-10 ish). I've got about 325 hours, not much I know, but I've run into all kinds of personalities. MOST of the people I've received training from have been good, but it takes a special kind of person to be "great".

I've come to realize that there are three types of CFI's out there:

Those that care, those that tolerate and those that are just looking to run up time.

Similar to our schools, the best teachers out there in most cases simply can't afford a $10 / hour job. Sure you occasionally get an older retiree or a newbie young CFI that can do the job VERY well, but those are outliers. Most of the folks out there are just looking to run up time and treat it as a stepping stone in a career, because for most people that's why they did it. It's a relatively easy way to hit 1500.

I was pretty lucky when I went through training and had a bunch of really good instructors, but they all came with their faults. You either accept those, or you don't.

At the end of the day, you are paying the CFI for a service. If they are treating you poorly, fire them. It's a business. And, believe me, you are doing THEM a service because if they get fired enough, pretty soon they will HAVE to change, else risk not getting paid or getting to that 1500.
 
James331 said:
^ that (money aspect)
Most times its money

Also being sensitive has no place in the cockpit, if you think that's bad wait till you make a rookie mistake with a ATC guy or tower controller and get light up, would these same students just "give up" or perhaps start crying?

I've never yelled at a student, or been mean, but I am straight up honest with them, all the way from "damn good work, now to three around the patch" to telling them that I don't see this going anywhere and referring them to another CFI to see if flying is for them.

They are your customer, but gravity and physics have no concerns for ones "feelings"
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It's not a matter of hurting ones feelings It's a matter of respect. Just because a person is a "CFI" does that give him/her the right to disrespect his/her student in front of people in anyway?
Agreed! everyone learns differently but when a CFI wants to put his hand on me, I don't approve of that...at all.
 
You can be a great pilot but how to be a good instructor can be learned as well. For some it comes naturally, for others it has to be learned. It's people skills and having an understanding that everyone you come in contact with learns differently but NO ONE should be disrespected.
 
FloridaPilot said:
It's not a matter of hurting ones feelings It's a matter of respect. Just because a person is a "CFI" does that give him/her the right to disrespect his/her student in front of people in anyway?
Agreed! everyone learns differently but when a CFI wants to put his hand on me, I don't approve of that...at all.
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How did this story go from one of criticism about being behind the airplane to a story about being "disrespected" and physically assaulted?
 
dmspilot said:
How did this story go from one of criticism about being behind the airplane to a story about being "disrespected" and physically assaulted?
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The smack on the head post.

Joey4420 said:
I guess I am the odd one. I actually asked my CFI to be harder on me. I knew I was only flying one day a week at the time and wanted to make the most of my time and money. He never did get any harder on me with my flying, but keep he perfect attitude and teaching skills and I am a Sport Pilot now. I just think each person learns differently and some do require a little smack on the back of the head (if they have agreed to such actions). I wouldn't have wanted a literal smack, but a figurative berating would have reinforced a few things I am sure.
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The FOI (Fundamentals of Instruction) knowledge requirement to get a CFI certificate is one of the most reviled and perhaps disregarded aspects of the whole process. Many/most go through the motions of passing the written and oral tests on that subject and then forget it. That's too bad, and I am sure is the case for the CFI mentioned in the original post. I am certain that nowhere in the FAA's "Aviation Instructors Handbook" (faa-h-8083-9a) does it recommend lighting into a student for any reason. Nowhere. Yes, training costs do cause many student pilots to drop out. However, I agree with the OP that all too often CFIs use inappropriate actions and words that only discourage the student. Shame on them.
 
There's an old saying that those who can't do, teach. What if what you can't do is to teach? What then? Do you still teach or try to? Seems that what many who can't teach do is to teach. Confused?
 
SkyDog58 said:
There's an old saying that those who can't do, teach. What if what you can't do is to teach? What then? Do you still teach or try to? Seems that what many who can't teach do is to teach. Confused?
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"Those that can't do, teach. Those that can't teach, teach gym" - Jack Black.
 
Teaching is hard, and not everyone is good at it. And in flying, many folks that have no interest or business teaching get put into that position in order to build time. It's a bad combo. Here's to all the great CFI's out there, though, getting it done for the rest of us!
 
George Mohr said:
Teaching is hard, and not everyone is good at it. And in flying, many folks that have no interest or business teaching get put into that position in order to build time. It's a bad combo. Here's to all the great CFI's out there, though, getting it done for the rest of us!
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:yeahthat:
 
I suspect that finances are often more of an issue for the younger crowd, I suspect that the older crowd often quits because life just gets in the way. I know if I did not have business reasons to fly, I would never have finished and would likely not continue.

I agree that we need instructors that aren't too easy on us, but the thought of an instructor berating a student for not progressing fast enough doesn't make a lot of sense to me (I do understand there are two sides to this story and we don't really know either one). We all pick it up a a different pace and most instructors are looking for more hours, not less. While I don't t think many intentionally make it take longer, I can't imagine one mad because it is taking someone too long and the instructor is getting my flight time/pay.

Jim
 
Around here at least (D.C. metro) part of the issue seems to be there just aren't enough CFIs. I'm getting back into the air after a 5 year hiatus and I've had to take time off of work since Sat/Sun are booked up nearly solid for weeks. During the week has even been difficult. At least once checked out it means there are plenty of airplane to rent.

As for CFI style, I prefer someone who is tough with standards, while maintaining a professional and hopefully somewhat friendly attitude.
 
At the start I had good CFIs. Lately, during flight reviews , transition, and check rides it has been terrible.

First time in a Chief. CFI says on take off watch the runway and slowly push in the throttle, taking 3 seconds to get to full throttle. Being unfamiliar and not looking at it (look at the runway), I took 5 seconds. "That was p$ss poor!"

Different plane, different CFI, on take off climb at 75 knots. CFI "No, No, No. Don't look at the airspeed, use the sight picture!" Duh! I'd never flown that type of plane before. How could I have know the sight picture?

I also encountered the screamer. And the CFIs who on separate flights contradicted one another in a fundamental way concerning best glide speed.

And the CFI who would not let me go until I memorized and could use ever nmemonic he had ever learned.
 
Wow. "don't look at the airspeed indicator"... I mean, it's not a glider, what if the engine isn't developing 100% power? That sight picture could equal a stall. That's just terrible.
 
I've never had a screamer but I've had a slapper. TWSS...

I was doing my PPL mock ride with our chief CFI. We did an engine out simulated emergency landing. We got low enough that I was uncomfortable with the approaching hills and farm houses so I reached for the throttle so we could climb out.

As soon as I put my hand on the throttle he slapped it. I was so startled not only by the fact that a grown man just slapped my hand but also the stupidity of doing something very unexpected to a low-time student pilot in a high stress scenario. He said that he would be the one to say when we would climb out. I told him after the flight, that I felt as the pilot flying it was up to me to make that call, particularly since the field I was aiming at was made and there was no sense in my mind continuing any lower.

That was my first and only flight with that dude.
 
If you don't like your CFI you don't have to keep your CFI. Even in the USAF a student could request an instructor change. In the civilian world, you are paying the CFI so he/she is working for YOU.

If a CFI gave me attitude I would immediately call it out and if it persisted I'd fire him......and probably give him a field grade chewing out as well.......

I expect a CFI to be competent and professional. I'll take care of my own motivation............
 
My first Multi instructor told me straight up, "Your flying is my paycheck so I expect you to fly a lot."

I told him I basically don't care about your paycheck, I care if you know how to teach or not.
 
The worst CFI's I had were in helicopters

CFI 1: 1st lesson of my life the CFI clenched the throttle on an R22 (prob nervous) and pegged the needle way outside of the red zone for about 15 seconds. An obvious obverspeed but went unreported for about a month, until during my PPL reading I realized what an overspeed was. I reported it to the chief pilot in fear others were flying a ticking time bomb.

CFI 2: We were about 50lbs over gross as someone fueled the helicopter the night before when they shouldn't have. His response "thats how the real world operates, get used to it, lets go".

Those were great times.
 
Everyone learns a little (and in some cases a lot) differently, meaning a CFI really needs to be able to adapt his/her teaching style to match the student. Some (though in my experience not very many) students do occasionally need a little "lighting into." I'll certainly admit I've done it a few times in my instructing "career", and, as far as I can remember, each time it was effective at correcting whatever the problem was. Usually it's because the student has a bit of a chip on his/her shoulder that's creating safety issues, and previous "kid glove" efforts at resolving have failed. Some people just don't respond until the situation is escalated to beyond what most people would consider "normal criticism." Not saying the CFI in this instance was right or wrong, but it can be difficult for a third-party to judge a situation without ALL of the facts.
 
I like flying with people that critic my flying. I especially like when super low time guys ask stuff or say why didn't you say or do this...
It makes me think and give a reason. Even if they are dead wrong I still have to stop, think, and explain in a clear and convincing way. I like that. When I am wrong, I learn! Guy stays quite, I keep doing it wrong and he may pick up a bad habit. Lose lose, just to save my feelings?
 
George Mohr said:
Wow. "don't look at the airspeed indicator"... I mean, it's not a glider, what if the engine isn't developing 100% power? That sight picture could equal a stall. That's just terrible.
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I would love... no, I would PAY, to see the DPEs face, when on your checkride he tells you you're getting a bit slow on this first takeoff, and you say "my CFI told me not to look at the ASI"... :D
 
Skid said:
CFI 2: We were about 50lbs over gross as someone fueled the helicopter the night before when they shouldn't have. His response "thats how the real world operates, get used to it, lets go".
Those were great times.
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Did you go? :)
 
bradg33 said:
Everyone learns a little (and in some cases a lot) differently, meaning a CFI really needs to be able to adapt his/her teaching style to match the student. Some (though in my experience not very many) students do occasionally need a little "lighting into." I'll certainly admit I've done it a few times in my instructing "career", and, as far as I can remember, each time it was effective at correcting whatever the problem was. Usually it's because the student has a bit of a chip on his/her shoulder that's creating safety issues, and previous "kid glove" efforts at resolving have failed. Some people just don't respond until the situation is escalated to beyond what most people would consider "normal criticism." Not saying the CFI in this instance was right or wrong, but it can be difficult for a third-party to judge a situation without ALL of the facts.
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In all my time as a USAF instructor pilot I never had to "light in" to a student. If one has to be a screamer to get a students attention, then the instructor skills need more development. I found creative ways to make the required points, and each student was different.

One T-38 student of mine had a dangerous habit of being sloppy about leveling off at the MDA. The T-38 has a curtain that completely covers the rear canopy so the student in the backseat gets real IMC training even in VMC. The Loc approach at Reese AFB had an MDA of 300' AGL, and the FAF was 5-6? miles from the runway.

Well, my student did it again, shoved the nose over at the FAF and leveled off a little below the MDA. This time I took the jet, kept us where he leveled off, then told him to pull back the hood and look straight down over the side of the airplane. I heard him gasp--275' AGL five miles from the field looks awfully low when at approach speed in a jet with tiny wings. That completely resolved his issue without any "lighting into" him.

Another time I was flying in a T-1 with two students, one who outranked me. It was the ride before their qual checkride and the squadron liked to fly students with an evaluator on the ride before their check. I was a squadron evaluator. They both did a very poor job and were very nervous. As we were descending back to Randolph AFB at the end on the 3 hour sortie I told them that neither of them was ready for a checkride and the only way I could get them another sortie was by busting them both. They immediately both relaxed, we had a great debrief, they got their extra ride and aced their checkrides. Busting a training sortie is nowhere near as big a deal as busting a Form 8 checkride. No yelling was required.

Instructors need to look for teachable moments and find ways to make the point without being lazy and just yelling. This doesn't mean you are not holding students to high standards.
 
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INTJ said:
In all my time as a USAF instructor pilot I never had to "light in" to a student. If one has to be a screamer to get a students attention, then the instructor skills need more development. I found creative ways to make the required points, and each student was different.

One T-38 student of mine had a dangerous habit of being sloppy about leveling off at the MDA. The T-38 has a curtain that completely covers the rear canopy so the student in the backseat gets real IMC training even in VMC. The Loc approach at Reese AFB had an MDA of 300' AGL, and the FAF was 5-6? miles from the runway.

Well, my student did it again, shoved the nose over at the FAF and leveled off a little below the MDA. This time I took the jet, kept us where he leveled off, then told him to pull back the hood and look straight down over the side of the airplane. I heard him gasp--275' AGL five miles from the field looks awfully low when at approach speed in a jet with tiny wings. That completely resolved his issue without any "lighting into" him.

Another time I was flying in a T-1 with two students, one who outranked me. It was the ride before their qual checkride and the squadron liked to fly students with an evaluator on the ride before their check. I was a squadron evaluator. They both did a very poor job and were very nervous. As we were descending back to Randolph AFB at the end on the 3 hour sortie I told them that neither of them was ready for a checkride and the only way I could get them another sortie was by busting them both. They immediately both relaxed, we had a great debrief, they got their extra ride and aced their checkrides. Busting a training sortie is nowhere near as big a deal as busting a Form 8 checkride. onyelling was required.

Instructors need to look for teachable moments and find ways to make the point without being lazy and just yelling. This doesn't mean you are not holding students to high standards.
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FWIW, "light into" != screaming.
 
To me... get loud = get fired

that CFI needs a head slap.
If I were the airport management or FBO, he would be spoken to and/or dealt with.

not dealt with like the mob or anything...but you know
 
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