I bought an airplane. It was a lifelong dream. 6 months later, I'm out. (Reddit post)

O2 Birddog said:
you basically have two choices, starting out for little or nothing in the white collar world, or starting at minimum wage in the service industries.

We owe our kids and grandkids better.
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That’s what the kids are being told but the trades still exist and there are amazing opportunities for those that bother to look.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
That’s what the kids are being told but the trades still exist and there are amazing opportunities for those that bother to look.
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Well here in Texas more and more schools are actually going back to teaching the trades at least in some of the smaller districts. Wichita Falls has had a pretty outstanding program going for about 7 years I think and the smaller districts in the area, some of them anyhow, are starting to model programs off of theirs.

There's always hope in this country, we just have to be smart enough not to cut our own throats.
 
O2 Birddog said:
Since the 70's we've been telling kids that if you don't go to college you are a failure and that blue collar folks are something of a lesser breed.

In the years that have followed our industries have largely died off while the cost of a college education has increased by over 6x the rate of inflation.

Today anything less than a Master's is pretty meaningless and actual work experience is more likely to get you an entry level job with decent starting pay and benefits than a BA or BS.

I'm not trying to make this a matter of partisan politics it's just one example of where the country has gone terribly wrong where today you basically have two choices, starting out for little or nothing in the white collar world, or starting at minimum wage in the service industries.

We owe our kids and grandkids better.
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Agreed. If it makes you feel any better college enrollment is down 7% from last year. Mostly the males are staying away. Surprise!
Also, I read where it has been estimated that 25% of the small liberal arts colleges today will not exist in 20 years.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Agreed. If it makes you feel any better college enrollment is down 7% from last year. Mostly the males are staying away. Surprise!
Also, I read where it has been estimated that 25% of the small liberal arts colleges today will not exist in 20 years.
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When I see growing numbers of qualified kids leaving technical programs walking into good paying jobs I'll be happy.
 
I'll be happy to get any handyman to return my call. The number of things I've had to learn to do myself over lockdown is staggering. I think I could build my next house from scratch if I had to. It will have a moat and drawbridge if I do. And cannon loaded with grape shot. :D

I'm sure I would have NO problem getting callbacks for yoga instructors, life coaches, poets, or diversity consultants.
 
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Datadriver said:
I've had fun dumping on the original Reddit post but the underlying issues the author complains about have been true for at least the last 20 years, and they are:
  1. Shortage of A&Ps to work on GA. They would return your calls and seek out your business if they needed it. They are perpetually swamped.
  2. Inability of A&Ps to troubleshoot: they can change a tire or a mag, but ask them to troubleshoot a gyrating fuel pressure gauge on a PA28 and they are stumped
  3. Low wages for A&Ps: they don't make much, this contributes to 1 and 2 above
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I'm about to have to take my plane to an A&P to install an engine monitor, which I could easily handle--but since they're isn't an A&P at my field, and since I work during the day, I have to take vacation and book a hotel to do supervised work.
I'd love to see a restricted A&P license for GA-only that would allow me to work on my own plane, but didn't require 3 years of experience just to sit for the exam. Local A&P signoff on basic mechanical competence would allow you to attend the course. The same A&P schools that are licensed now could teach it. Still a written/oral/practical, but no jets, no turbines, just recips. Maybe even a restriction on major airframe repairs. I'm happy to take my airplane to an experienced A&P when the work requires it, but installing a starter, or installing/timing a mag, or simple swap outs of failed parts? Puh-leeze.
 
That’s one reason I hope they expand the LSA type rules to more planes where you can take a carouse to do more work on your own plane or convert it to experimental and do even more.
 
ShaneFalco said:
I'm about to have to take my plane to an A&P to install an engine monitor, which I could easily handle--but since they're isn't an A&P at my field, and since I work during the day, I have to take vacation and book a hotel to do supervised work.
I'd love to see a restricted A&P license for GA-only that would allow me to work on my own plane, but didn't require 3 years of experience just to sit for the exam. Local A&P signoff on basic mechanical competence would allow you to attend the course. The same A&P schools that are licensed now could teach it. Still a written/oral/practical, but no jets, no turbines, just recips. Maybe even a restriction on major airframe repairs. I'm happy to take my airplane to an experienced A&P when the work requires it, but installing a starter, or installing/timing a mag, or simple swap outs of failed parts? Puh-leeze.
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My understanding is that even on certified aircraft if you have an A&P willing to do so they can supervise and sign off on the work you do. The problem would be in finding one willing to do so in a lot of places out of fear for liability concerns.

I actually know a guy that feeds his aviation addiction buying "bargain planes", rebuilding and selling them who has a couple of A&P's he works with that allow him to do the bulk of the work himself and he pays for their supervision, guidance, and signatures.
 
ShaneFalco said:
I'd love to see a restricted A&P license for GA-only
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This is similar to the Owner Maintained category in Canada. Unfortunately there are national and international issues that arise with that route just as shown with the TCCA category. If someone can figure out a way an economical route to return these aircraft back to type certificate conformity I think it would have a chance. Last I heard this category did not get the public response that was anticipated and I would expect the same here in the US. Lot more involved in this than a simple blessing on who can sign off the work. Curious. Do you currently perform all the available preventative maintenance tasks on your aircraft?
O2 Birddog said:
The problem would be in finding one willing to do so in a lot of places out of fear for liability concerns.
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They're out there, but your correct there are not as many who will. However, having provided owner-assist services for a number of years, I found less than 50% of the owners who approached me are simply looking for a way to cut costs but not put in the work themselves. If an owner was really intent on going down this path, they may want to read up on the maintenance side, become mechanically proficient and perform every preventative maintenance task available, and arrange a place to work on their aircraft. Only then start to approach APIAs in your region about owner-assist. Be proactive and sell them your commitment to do the work yourself and not be the guy who drops off his aircraft at the A&Ps shop and says you'll be by on weekends. Then dont show.
 
O2 Birddog said:
It should be noted that the author of the piece is living in S. California, among the highest cost of living areas in the US. On top of that So Cal has among the highest rates of airplane ownership and certified GAA Pilots putting a serious strain on the available AP's and shops.

Our schools need to quit beating every kid through the head that they need to go to college to "succeed" and get serious about reinstituting technical and trade programs for the over half of kids who will not succeed in college even if they go and they will leave with a massive amount of debt that will take two decades or more to pay off if they don't default.

Without skilled technicians and tradesman this country simply cannot function and those fields pay very well these days with great benefits as well.

Not everyone is suited to Academia.

A certified A&P today can start off making upwards or 20.00/hr fresh out of school after just 20-24 months and if they stick can soon raise that starting pay by half or more.

If you want to look at "sustainable living" that is viable, we need to stop being a society where virtually everything is disposable.

Properly maintained a well built aircraft can have a service live of 60-100 years or even more in some cases so there's no end to opportunities for A&P's.
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I agree that college is not for everyone and that trade schools should be reinstated.

But $20 per hour works out to about $42,000 a year for a normal work year (no overtime). And if the gov will give you upwards of $50,000 to sit at home........

One thing would be to structure gov programs (ALL of them) to have a sliding scale. So that for every so much you earn, you lose a bit of the gov handouts. Or, go to the Mack Reynolds GIT model, and just give EVERYONE (US citizens only) $40,000 a year, no matter how much you make. For those at the bottom, it gives them some incentive to work. And the upper end, it will be used to buy things and create jobs.
 
TomF said:
That’s one reason I hope they expand the LSA type rules to more planes where you can take a carouse to do more work on your own plane or convert it to experimental and do even more.
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That doesn’t apply to LSAs with a conventional certification, like Cubs and Ercoupes. So even if planes like 150s and 172s become eligible as LSAs, the maintenance approach is unlikely to change.
 
Pinecone said:
I agree that college is not for everyone and that trade schools should be reinstated.

But $20 per hour works out to about $42,000 a year for a normal work year (no overtime). And if the gov will give you upwards of $50,000 to sit at home........

One thing would be to structure gov programs (ALL of them) to have a sliding scale. So that for every so much you earn, you lose a bit of the gov handouts. Or, go to the Mack Reynolds GIT model, and just give EVERYONE (US citizens only) $40,000 a year, no matter how much you make. For those at the bottom, it gives them some incentive to work. And the upper end, it will be used to buy things and create jobs.
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Actually it would cause the greatest rise in inflation that we've ever seen.

You can start at around 20/hr fresh out of school but that goes up rapidly if you make the cut in the industry.

If one has the interest, desire and brains it's a great field that will land you solidly in the middle class with just a bit of effort.
 
The supply chain issues and the lack of available professionals to repair airplanes is permeating every aspect of aviation right now. Every major manufacturer is struggling to find serviceable parts and, when they can find them, there is a back log of airplanes to fix because they do not have the staff to repair them.

I just had an AOG event on Thursday with my Phenom 100 and talked to a friend that had a Phenom 300 that was AOG as well. To make a very long story very short, after supplying the manufacturer with the data download and identifying the problem, I was told that the AOG department was gone for the week. My friends at the factory said that they are extremely low on technicians in every aspect of the company. There is just no talent out there to hire.

Even though the factory is on my home field, I had to use a service center 200 miles away. When they confirmed diagnostics and identified the bad part, they were told that there was a part, but it could not be released for unknown reasons. Just last night, they released the part and it was installed this morning, but a three hour repair became a four day AOG with the costs associated with putting up the technicians for that time and I had to complete my trip using another airplane.

As with everyone on here, I depend upon the airplane to support my business and personal travel, so it is extremely frustrating when it is down. While I do not pick up wrenches to repair the airplane myself, I find that having good relationships with technicians and their companies is really helpful. In addition, I am extremely involved in moving the repair process along, which does speed things up.

While I am empathetic with the feelings of the article that was posted, the airplane still works 95% of the time and makes travel so much better and, along with the pure joy and beauty of aviation, I think it is a pretty good trade off.

Abram Finkelstein
N685AS
 
Almost suggests a new business. Concierge aircraft service similar to concierge medicine. You pay an obscene amount of money each month and the mechanics meticulously maintains your aircraft. Probably appeal to the cirrus crowd. For cheap pilots like me who fly 50 year old Cessnas? Probably not.
 
And "marine" carries a similar cost penalty to "aviation."
 
TommyG said:
. 25 years ago there would be plenty of airport bums sit around talk, have some drinks.
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So, at what age does one go from being an airport rat or gopher to an airport bum? Asking for a friend that is close to retirement. :)
 
Ventucky Red said:
So, at what age does one go from being an airport rat or gopher to an airport bum? Asking for a friend that is close to retirement. :)
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Sorta like the seniors menu in restaurants.

The bum age used to be 55, but many airports have raised the age to 60.
 
I don't think you can be a bum if you seem to be sober to everyone. When people start to wonder, then you're on that downward slide.

The exception being, if you're on a sofa and hold up an empty coffee cup in the general direction of someone else, and ask any random person if they could get you a refill, then you're a bum. :) to anyone that might resemble.
 
WDD said:
Almost suggests a new business. Concierge aircraft service similar to concierge medicine. You pay an obscene amount of money each month and the mechanics meticulously maintains your aircraft. Probably appeal to the cirrus crowd. For cheap pilots like me who fly 50 year old Cessnas? Probably not.
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You rich Americans with your ridiculously new airplanes. :D

I took my plane ('48 PA-17) in for it's annual in June.
Everything is fine, except.....
It needed a 500 hour mag check. Meh. That was expected.
Then they found the exhaust system was defunct. There are almost no off the shelf parts for my airplane. Waiting for a guy in California to build a new one out of stainless. Won't be done until the middle of September.
Then the bearing cage in the tailwheel disintegrated when they pulled it to grease it. sigh......
Waiting for a tailwheel.
My wife, who doesn't like little airplanes, used the "Play stupid games win stupid prizes." line on me and I couldn't summon a rational argument to come back at her.
If you can't afford a new airplane, or aren't interested in a new airplane, you end up flying old airplanes by default.
Old airplanes are great fun, but great fun costs money. And time.
On the plus side, at my age almost everything now comes with a lifetime guarantee.:rofl:
 
Ventucky Red said:
So, at what age does one go from being an airport rat or gopher to an airport bum? Asking for a friend that is close to retirement. :)
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When you complain from a cracker barrel rocking chair they put outside at the FBO vs complain about things from bar stool.
 
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bflynn said:
Econ 101, money is a proxy for value.
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Free money always drives up inflation: Redneck Economics 202.

If you hand most people 40 grand they'll blow it inside of 2 months. That's why five years after winning the lottery most lotto winners are no better off financially than they were before winning.
 
Pinecone said:
I agree that college is not for everyone and that trade schools should be reinstated.

But $20 per hour works out to about $42,000 a year for a normal work year (no overtime). And if the gov will give you upwards of $50,000 to sit at home........

One thing would be to structure gov programs (ALL of them) to have a sliding scale. So that for every so much you earn, you lose a bit of the gov handouts. Or, go to the Mack Reynolds GIT model, and just give EVERYONE (US citizens only) $40,000 a year, no matter how much you make. For those at the bottom, it gives them some incentive to work. And the upper end, it will be used to buy things and create jobs.
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That has to be one of the dumbest ideas I’ve ever read. The easiest way to guarantee something has no value is give it to everyone for free.

talk about creative ways to cause inflation… let’s give free money to everyone. Just exactly who would be paying the taxes to give this money to everyone? Someone has to pay. The government has no means of income other than taking from the governed.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
That has to be one of the dumbest ideas I’ve ever read. The easiest way to guarantee something has no value is give it to everyone for free.

talk about creative ways to cause inflation… let’s give free money to everyone. Just exactly who would be paying the taxes to give this money to everyone? Someone has to pay. The government has no means of income other than taking from the governed.
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I have to assume he was joking...nobody can be THAT stupid.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
talk about creative ways to cause inflation… let’s give free money to everyone. Just exactly who would be paying the taxes to give this money to everyone? Someone has to pay. The government has no means of income other than taking from the governed.
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I think we should give everyone free money. Just give each person the same amount. If they need more, they can work. But unlike today's system, the free money would not decrease.

Not my idea, proposed by the writer Mack Reynolds about a future society. Cashless (we are getting there) with a GIT.

He also proposed for corporate issues, not using courts, but the companies meet on the battle field. With hired armies, but with technology pre 1898 (IIRC). :D
 
Pinecone said:
I think we should give everyone free money.
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You do recognize that would destroy the value of money, right? Giving every person in the US 40k every year would cost 14 trillion in the first year. By the second year, the value of that money would be so low that you'd have to give everyone 100k just to stay level. By the third year, we're all rolling our wheelbarrows full of money to the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. People would still not have what they want because everything would go up in price, way up. I would think all the recent "free" stimulus money and the inflation it caused would have already shown this.

Simple lesson in economics: Money represents value. If value does not change, but you double the amount of money available, then the money is worth half as much. That doubled money still buys the same value.

Said another way without money. 150 years ago an ounce of gold would buy a pistol or a nice suit for a gentleman. Today, gold has not significantly increased in availability. An ounce of gold still buys a pistol or a nice suit. If you could magically double the gold supply, it would take two ounces to achieve the same thing.

A cashless society would become a barter society, which is effectively the same as cash. But it's much more convenient to carry a wallet with cash and credit cards than a bushel full of apples to trade. Assuming the US went to such a scheme, the most likely outcome would be that ordinary people would switch to a more stable currency like the Euro.
 
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Pinecone said:
I think we should give everyone free money. Just give each person the same amount. If they need more, they can work. But unlike today's system, the free money would not decrease.

Not my idea, proposed by the writer Mack Reynolds about a future society. Cashless (we are getting there) with a GIT.

He also proposed for corporate issues, not using courts, but the companies meet on the battle field. With hired armies, but with technology pre 1898 (IIRC). :D
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Luckily the stupidity of which you speak is partisan so I can call it stupid while being inclusive with no risk of offending any particular group.

to be clear. I’m not calling you stupid. Just this idea you have proposed.
 
bflynn said:
Simple lesson in economics: Money represents value.
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True, but...

With a fiat currency such as the USD, money is given a forced value by the issuing government’s demand that taxes be paid in that currency. Money can be made more valuable (the need for it will be greater) by increasing tax rates. The safest way to do this politically is via pass-thru taxes on corporations, so voters aren’t as aware of their actual tax burden.

This, of course, also drives up prices and again we have inflation. The US “Great Experiment” has proven that taxation with representation ain’t so hot, either.

It’s sorta like the laws of thermodynamics: you can’t win, you can’t break even, you can’t quit the game.
 
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Half Fast said:
True, but...

With a fiat currency such as the USD, money is given a forced value by the issuing government’s demand that taxes be paid in that currency.
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The US Dollar is not backed by the taxes collected by the govt.
 
schmookeeg said:
We're not in a post-scarcity world yet. Free money robs from those who have money via currency debasement. Which is generally the point of these programs when they get proposed.
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bflynn said:
You do recognize that would destroy the value of money, right? Giving every person in the US 40k every year would cost 14 trillion in the first year. By the second year, the value of that money would be so low that you'd have to give everyone 100k just to stay level. By the third year, we're all rolling our wheelbarrows full of money to the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread. People would still not have what they want because everything would go up in price, way up. I would think all the recent "free" stimulus money and the inflation it caused would have already shown this.

Simple lesson in economics: Money represents value. If value does not change, but you double the amount of money available, then the money is worth half as much. That doubled money still buys the same value.

Said another way without money. 150 years ago an ounce of gold would buy a pistol or a nice suit for a gentleman. Today, gold has not significantly increased in availability. An ounce of gold still buys a pistol or a nice suit. If you could magically double the gold supply, it would take two ounces to achieve the same thing.

A cashless society would become a barter society, which is effectively the same as cash. But it's much more convenient to carry a wallet with cash and credit cards than a bushel full of apples to trade. Assuming the US went to such a scheme, the most likely outcome would be that ordinary people would switch to a more stable currency like the Euro.
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In cashless, I meant card based, not no money.

Hmm, you mean no more gold is entering the economy?

The point is, the current system disincentivizes working for the poor. They make $40K not working. They get a job making $40K, they lose their non-working pay, so they make the same, but have to work. Or worse, they get a $30K job and make less money by working.

$40K per year to most on this board is not going to change their lives much, when added to what they make. It would be nice. For some, it would be pocket change.
 
bflynn said:
The US Dollar is not backed by the taxes collected by the govt.
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Try paying your taxes with anything else.

Taxes are calculated, assessed, and paid in USDs.

The USD is a fiat currency, not backed by anything other than government fiat. Dollars would only be pieces of paper without the USG declaring them to be legal tender.
 
I am so confused as to why anyone would think just giving "free money" away to people is smart. How on earth does that make sense? If they gave each person 40K Matchbox cars, and said, "This is the new currency, and everything needs to be bought and sold with these", maybe? But you'd better not keep giving away more Matchbox cars or everyone loses in the end, because the more Matchbox cars there are in circulation, the more Matchbox cars a person is willing to spend on something, and the less an individual Matchbox car is worth.

Since the US dollar is an already established currency, how will this help anyone? $40K is a HUGE chunk of money for me, but if everyone else gets that same chunk, I'll be paying $25 for a gallon of milk and $41/lb for ground beef, and I won't get to save or keep any of it, and the money I do have saved will be next to worthless because it can't keep up with the insane prices. I just see a million ways to lose.
 
If anyone wants to know what happens when you print money willy-nilly, just look at what happened in Zimbabwe.
 
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