Hypothetical: Time to fly Cirrus Vision Jet

gsengle said:
After lots of 400 series Cessna twin and high performance Mooney time, I had to drop off the Mooney a hundred miles or so away at an avionics shop, and got a ride back in my old instructors 172. He let me fly it back - hasn’t flown one in 15 years or so. You’re right I was amazed at how easy it was. That said didn’t seem easy the day I soloed! :-o


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An unexpected crosswind gust on landing will let you know how nasty that little high-winged plane can be.
 
gsengle said:
Bad analogy, in that you want a trainer that strips flying to its three axis seat of the pants basics, the jet won’t be a good teacher for that - stabilized approaches and glass cockpits and all that her stuff comes way later. Or should imho.
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If you're going to buy the jet, and the jet is all you're ever going to fly, there's nothing wrong with "stabilized approaches and glass cockpits and all that stuff" right off the bat, to get you into the right habits.

But we agree the 172 isn’t a great trainer. I’m a Cherokee fan in that regard. But I also believe the SR20/22 is an even worse trainer... for teaching the basics.
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See, I think the PA28s are even easier to fly than the 172, and think the 172 is a better trainer because of it. The PA28 pretty much flares for landing by itself, and the stall is way more benign - it never really "breaks" the way a 172 does, it just buffets and mushes.

But in this case, whether the lottery winner starts with an SR22 or goes straight to the SF50, I don't think there's a lot of value in learning on a 172 first. They're just too different, and not enough will transfer.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
... But in this case, whether the lottery winner starts with an SR22 or goes straight to the SF50, I don't think there's a lot of value in learning on a 172 first. They're just too different, and not enough will transfer.
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If the lotto winner is ab initio, I'd recommend the 172, to see if they even want to learn to fly. They may just want to buy a G650 and sit in back.
 
As the OP I am most certainly not a lottery winner...however I am interested in the discussion so far. Lots of interesting points and no clear consensus so far. Which is what I expected :p Personally as an aviation outsider I find the lure of the Vision Jet to be exciting. Is there a chance I will ever buy one...not unless I really do win the lotto! Or they come down in price by about 50%.
 
There are flight schools that start their students in a SR20. No need for the detour with the 172.
 
weilke said:
There are flight schools that start their students in a SR20. No need for the detour with the 172.
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I taught one of my 15 year old students on a brand new SR22. He soloed on his 16th birthday, PPL on his 17th, and was able to get all the way up to CFI before he left for his freshman year of college. With the proper training, one can learn on almost anything. That’s where Cirrus gets it right. There’s no other training program like theirs.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If the lotto winner is ab initio, I'd recommend the 172, to see if they even want to learn to fly. They may just want to buy a G650 and sit in back.
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Shhhh!!! That's not what we want. We want them to buy fancy new airplanes and turn them into used airplanes so the rest of us can afford them. :D

jallen0 said:
As the OP I am most certainly not a lottery winner...however I am interested in the discussion so far. Lots of interesting points and no clear consensus so far. Which is what I expected :p Personally as an aviation outsider I find the lure of the Vision Jet to be exciting. Is there a chance I will ever buy one...not unless I really do win the lotto! Or they come down in price by about 50%.
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Well, let me throw this out there: You don't need to have jet money to get into an airplane that'll be good for traveling. I live in Wisconsin, and I fly a Mooney Ovation, which goes about 200 mph on about 12 gallons of gas an hour - So, 16.7 mpg, better than a pickup truck, and surely better efficiency than any car at 200mph... Plus, I can do 200mph all day long and it's perfectly legal! :D

Add in not needing to go through check-in, security, boarding, waiting for your luggage, waiting in line at the rental car counter, and never having a layover and always being able to go directly to your destination, and I figure that from here in Wisconsin I can get to my destination faster in my little four-seater than I could on the airlines, anywhere in the US east of the Rockies.

Direct operating costs for the plane are on the order of $120/hr. Fixed costs run about $1200/month, but I have a co-owner so I only have to pay half of that.

So... Want some? First hit's free. Well, OK, the first hit is usually about $100 for an introductory flight, but I highly recommend you try it if you have any interest in aviation. We all got here via different methods - Heck, my co-owner was a flight sim enthusiast until he realized that for what he was about to spend on his next awesome sim setup he could fly real airplanes - but we've all discovered that aviation is the most awesome, life-changing experience you could ask for.
 
jordane93 said:
I taught one of my 15 year old students on a brand new SR22. He soloed on his 16th birthday, PPL on his 17th, and was able to get all the way up to CFI before he left for his freshman year of college.
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Found the actual lotto winner, this kid.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Just so that everyone truly understands: it's far, far more likely that a wealthy person has earned their money, than won it in the lottery.
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For millionaires, yes. For billionaires less so. And then we have the children of billionaires.


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jordane93 said:
I taught one of my 15 year old students on a brand new SR22. He soloed on his 16th birthday, PPL on his 17th, and was able to get all the way up to CFI before he left for his freshman year of college. With the proper training, one can learn on almost anything. That’s where Cirrus gets it right. There’s no other training program like theirs.
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The ab-initio airline programs start their students in Bonanzas. It's all in the training.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Just so that everyone truly understands: it's far, far more likely that a wealthy person has earned their money, than won it in the lottery.
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A good number of people won it in the 'lucky sperm lottery'. That's ok, as long as they don't tell me their tales of being 'self made'.
 
gsengle said:
That’s partially a bad analogy - and partially a good one.

Many musicians learn piano because being able to think polyphonically (many notes/lines at same time) is a building block to musicianship. So in a way a good analogy, yes you could and should learn piano. Same reason I learned Latin in school.

Bad analogy, in that you want a trainer that strips flying to its three axis seat of the pants basics, the jet won’t be a good teacher for that - stabilized approaches and glass cockpits and all that her stuff comes way later. Or should imho.

But we agree the 172 isn’t a great trainer. I’m a Cherokee fan in that regard. But I also believe the SR20/22 is an even worse trainer... for teaching the basics.




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I would say a better analogy is learning scales. "If all I am going to do is play Beethoven at Carnegie, why do I need to practice these cruddy scales all of the time?"
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Just so that everyone truly understands: it's far, far more likely that a wealthy person has earned their money, than won it in the lottery.
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His parents maybe, but I find it unlikely that a 15 year old kid has earned enough money to pay for time in a brand new SR22. It's not the Powerball, be he did pretty well in the genetic lottery.
 
PPC1052 said:
I would say a better analogy is learning scales. "If all I am going to do is play Beethoven at Carnegie, why do I need to practice these cruddy scales all of the time?"
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I know you want to play Jazz saxophone, but here is a flute and some classical sheet music. Learn that first, because I think it's a better idea. I don't have facts to support that concept , but here is a flute. And if you don't believe me, you are obviously going to be a terrible musician.
 
gsengle said:
For millionaires, yes. For billionaires less so. And then we have the children of billionaires.


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My statement still stands; read it carefully.
 
weilke said:
A good number of people won it in the 'lucky sperm lottery'. That's ok, as long as they don't tell me their tales of being 'self made'.
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MarkH said:
His parents maybe, but I find it unlikely that a 15 year old kid has earned enough money to pay for time in a brand new SR22. It's not the Powerball, be he did pretty well in the genetic lottery.
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Seen recently: "The real key to success is entering the world through the right vagina."

Unfortunate, but pretty true.
 
If I were still in Russia, I'd hire a guy who gives rides in his L-39 to give me instruction. Our cadets soloed those L's in 12-15 hours. The training would take a bit more, because in Russia you're flying actual IMC 200 days a year. Then I'd grease a few wheels to get that SF50 imported and registered, start flying it and complain bitterly about the lack of oompf.

In America though... I would probably start on this training thing, learn about all the regulations, and give up.
 
weilke said:
The ab-initio airline programs start their students in Bonanzas. It's all in the training.
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Well, in sensible countries like the U.S they start in piston singles. But here's a primary student going solo in a 12-passenger twin-turboprop (reduce volume, it's loud):
 
Had a cfi friend who just finished a week or two getting type rated in the vision jet. According to him there is an additional 25 hours of flying with a mentor pilot or something. The cost of the rating wasn’t cheap either..
 
1RTK1 said:
Had a cfi friend who just finished a week or two getting type rated in the vision jet. According to him there is an additional 25 hours of flying with a mentor pilot or something. The cost of the rating wasn’t cheap either..
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The mentorship is only if it’s your first type (I think). My instructor got typed on it back in October. He already had his ATP and Beechjet and Citation X type ratings and he didn’t need to do the mentorship flights. They typed another instructor at the flight school and he had to do the mentorship thing.
 
If I won the lottery, I sure as hell wouldn't buy a Cirrus jet. I'd buy something that wouldn't make me want to throw up every time I saw it. ;)
 
LoneAspen said:
If I won the lottery, and money was no object, I'd continue my current plan, which is: SR20 -> SR22T and then MAYBE add on "-> Vision Jet" last, after many hours getting proficient in the SR22.

I got to see the inside of the SF50 recently, and of course it's a very cool plane. But I'm single with no kids, and don't do a lot of hauling people around, and I think it would be almost too much plane for me. Just too much wasted space and room I'd never use. If anything, I'd want it more for the increased capabilities, pressurization, etc, than for any increased people-hauling ability. Part of me also thinks I'd prefer to slow down a bit and enjoy the trip. I could easily see if I spent lottery money to get a new fully loaded SR22T, being perfectly happy in that (jeez, who wouldn't be???) with no desire to upgrade to the jet.

But I'll never win the lottery, so I don't have to burden myself with such decisions :)
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If you don't need the room do what this guy did, https://stonehengeairmuseum.org/aircraft
He has a T-33 and an A-37 to fly around in. Of course I would probably take the Seafire if it was only me.
 
zaitcev said:
Well, in sensible countries like the U.S they start in piston singles. But here's a primary student going solo in a 12-passenger twin-turboprop (reduce volume, it's loud):
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In Russia, aircraft lands you !
 
Hm... SR20 -> SR22 -> SF50 test flight
Then realize a Turbo SR22 is what you really want and spend the other 1.5M on a really nice boat :)


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