Huge areas with planes off limits to all...

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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Be forewarned - Might want to park your plane in the North 40 instead of Vintage/Exp this year!

On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday of OSH this year, they'll be moving the crowd line back 120 feet from where it normally is for several hours each day, with nobody allowed into the area even if their plane's in there. Looks like about half of the Vintage and Experimental parking east of the road and all the big warbirds are going to be off limits. :mad:

I wonder if they're going to kick all the people who live on Red Oak Court out of their houses too. :rolleyes:

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http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...rce-thunderbirds-flight-times-set-for-oshkosh
 

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flyingcheesehead said:
Be forewarned - Might want to park your plane in the North 40 instead of Vintage/Exp this year!

On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday of OSH this year, they'll be moving the crowd line back 120 feet from where it normally is for several hours each day, with nobody allowed into the area even if their plane's in there. Looks like about half of the Vintage and Experimental parking east of the road and all the big warbirds are going to be off limits. :mad:

I wonder if they're going to kick all the people who live on Red Oak Court out of their houses too. :rolleyes:

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http://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...rce-thunderbirds-flight-times-set-for-oshkosh
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No, but they have negotiated a Peace Treaty with the folks living there.
 
"After 1:30 p.m. on Friday and Saturday and noon on Sunday, pilots or crew of planes parked between the two crowd lines will be allowed in the area for a short time with a security escort to perform urgent, essential tasks. Access will end at 5 p.m. on Friday and Saturday and 3 p.m. on Sunday."

Roll of the dice if you get a helpful volunteer. But, if you don't get a yes the first time, wait 15 minutes for the next volunteer :)
 
Who had this bright idea,the show is starting to come back,and now they are imposing restrictions,
 
frfly172 said:
Who had this bright idea,the show is starting to come back,and now they are imposing restrictions,
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Because the performance box and safety areas needed for the Tbirds and Blue Angels are considerably larger than any other acro show that's been there before.
 
I was at an airshow in Va this spring and the only way the demonstrators could do a low pass was to pretend to do a landing approach and then go around. The safety Nazis are taking all of the fun out of life and we are letting them do it.
 
Sounds like **** poor planning.

I'm not going to be there, but my condolences to anyone who would attempt to prevent my access to my aircraft.

J-r-williams-batman-slap-robin.jpg
 
Morgan3820 said:
I was at an airshow in Va this spring and the only way the demonstrators could do a low pass was to pretend to do a landing approach and then go around. The safety Nazis are taking all of the fun out of life and we are letting them do it.
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I disagree. There are excellent reasons to have safety boxes for airshow performances & cheating to get around those restrictions is moronic. OTOH, I know of cases where there has been an accident & some bureaucrat has actually stopped bystanders from acting as first responders due to "safety"- those incidents have never turned out well.
 
James331 said:
Sounds like **** poor planning.

I'm not going to be there, but my condolences to anyone who would attempt to prevent my access to my aircraft.
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I thought that way once, too. Strangely enough, Bush's S.S. agents didn't take kindly to my insistence that I needed to get to my plane, back in 2006.

Nor did Gore's, back in 2004.

Nor did the airshow organizers in Janesville, WI, back in 1999.

Bottom line: If you park your plane anywhere on a public airport, you have ZERO "right" to it. Your access can be restricted or denied at any time, by the whim of any bureaucrat who believes that he is speaking for the "safety" of {fill in the blank}.

Don't like it? Don't park on a public airport.
 
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murphey said:
Because the performance box and safety areas needed for the Tbirds and Blue Angels are considerably larger than any other acro show that's been there before.
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The problem is that that box will exist during the majority of the the rest of the acts. That will make it unreasonably distant for the other acts.
 
nddons said:
The problem is that that box will exist during the majority of the the rest of the acts. That will make it unreasonably distant for the other acts.
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Fine. Tell EAA to cancel the Tbirds because you want the smaller box so you can sit closer. Can't have both. Life is a compromise.
 
warthog1984 said:
I disagree. There are excellent reasons to have safety boxes for airshow performances & cheating to get around those restrictions is moronic. OTOH, I know of cases where there has been an accident & some bureaucrat has actually stopped bystanders from acting as first responders due to "safety"- those incidents have never turned out well.
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Safety box fine, but not when it is so big that the planes are specs. I still say that they are taking all of the fun out of going to airshows. Never thought I would say this, but I am losing my interest in ever going to an Airventure. Too many rules!
 
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"160 people were killed today and over 300 injured in a freak accident at an airshow in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. During a performance of the U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds, something went seriously wrong and one of the aircraft crashed into an area occupied by spectators and parked small aircraft. It appears the pilot ejected and survived. The Air Force is engaged in an investigation and had no comment.

We have learned that the Air Force had not performed at this annual airshow for many years and this was their first return. They compromised with show organizers on the size of the "safety area" that would have to be clear of spectators, honoring past practice in part. Ironically, if the Air Force's normal safety zone had been in effect, it is quite likely there would have been no civilian casualties, as that area would have not had any spectators during the performance."

Several local politicians were heard to comment that this kind of disaster must never happen again. These airshows are a public hazard and must be abolished. There is no excuse for subjecting the public to this kind of hazard."
 
Chit happens.

I will take the tiny risk of that happening again over giving up ANY freedoms.

If your scared just lock yourself in your home or cubical and let the real men play outside, we'll take the risk
 
Morgan3820 said:
I was at an airshow in Va this spring and the only way the demonstrators could do a low pass was to pretend to do a landing approach and then go around. The safety Nazis are taking all of the fun out of life and we are letting them do it.
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That's normal all day long at OSH. They play that semantics game every year. Two years ago an F-16 turned itself into a lawn dart off the end of the runway. Big thud, lots of gawkers, including me, hauled it away a few hours later. Civilian aircraft are swept away even faster. I don't think Rausch's jet sat there longer than 60 minutes before the investigation was over with and the aircraft removed.

It's the afternoon show that is different this time around at OSH. No big deal. Three days and a few hours a day.
 
They should just make an exception for pilots with planes in that area. Don't let the entire crowd in if you don't want to.
 
dans2992 said:
They should just make an exception for pilots with planes in that area. Don't let the entire crowd in if you don't want to.
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Can't. FAA says the box must be clear of non-essential personnel or the show doesn't happen. T-Birds set where their box is.

(Note the T-Birds have already foregone some of their requirements to allow this. No static aircraft past the flight line. Snow fence or other considerable barrier keeping the crowd out. Etc. -- I suspect it'll be ropes and lots of volunteer human eyeballs with radios instead.)

http://afthunderbirds.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2013-Support-Manual-1.pdf

They've set it up so the access is available for as long as they can allow it, and then they need time to clear the area out to give the Air Boss a green light to hand the airfield off to the team.

If folks don't like it, they'll just never invite the T-Birds back. They're only flying three days of a show longer than a week, even at that. No big deal.

The areas affected are mostly static parking areas for aircraft, not camping areas.

Anyone who thinks they'll be inconvenienced by it in those areas can fix it by holding up a sign that says "GAC" when they arrive. They'll be marshaled to the North 40 campsites which are completely unaffected.

Those caught not paying even enough attention to what's going on to know what day it even is, will probably whine. Totally normal.

I think they've hit upon a reasonable compromise but we'll see. It may be the first and last military jet exhibition at OSH.
 
If you went to Sun and Fun this year, they did a similar thing there for the Blue Angels. The tent camping area had to have all the humans run out of it well before the show. Of course, I chose to watch the show from the Hilton across the field where we were staying.

Except for 1:30-end of airshow on Friday/Saturday/Sunday, Oshkosh will be as stated. Your only other option is no Thunderbirds.

For years people have been griping that Oshkosh never got the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. People pointed out that it was logistically impossible. Well someone figured out a way, and now people are crying over the fact that we have the Thunderbirds coming.

We'll have to see. I'm going to be one of those people pushing people back to the speaker poles down in Vintage I'm sure. This is going to be one of those "all hands on deck" things this year I suspect.

By the way, if you've been coming to Oshkosh for more than a few years, you'll know we already PERMANENTLY lost parking/crowd space several years ago. After a C-47 lost it on takeoff and ended up in the paved ditch (fortunately nobody parked there at the time), the FAA moved the burn line back from the taxiway (which was still separated by distance and grade from the ditch).

We're lucky we didn't lose more parking area after one-eyed Jack dumped his jet into taxiway papa.
 
dans2992 said:
They should just make an exception for pilots with planes in that area. Don't let the entire crowd in if you don't want to.
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Why would a pilot be any better than any other human safety wise in this situation? If you have a plane there, you can get escorted access to the plane if you need it before the show starts.

The thing that hasn't been pointed out is that this will CLOSE DOWN ALL DEPARTURES from Vintage and much of custom parking from the sterile time on. This period is always dodgy anyhow because even when the airport is open for departures on 9-27, we sometimes lose control of the ditch/Taxiway Papa before the airshow starts.

I always tell people who ask what the latest they can depart from vintage (when it's after noon), that "the field is open now." That's the only guarantee I can make.
 
James331 said:
Chit happens.

I will take the tiny risk of that happening again over giving up ANY freedoms.

If your scared just lock yourself in your home or cubical and let the real men play outside, we'll take the risk
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The real men ceded control to the "Risk Managers" in the late 20th century.
 
denverpilot said:
It may be the first and last military jet exhibition at OSH.
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Not the first. We had a few military jet teams in the '70s and early '80s, including the Italian jet team (Frecce Tricolori) in 1986. Two years later, Frecce Tricolori had their accident at Ramstein AFB. Rules were changed, and since the OSH show site didn't meet the new Category I criteria, we haven't seen any jet aerobatics there since (with a few exceptions for jets not classified as Category I, such as the BD-5J, Jimmy Franklin's jet Waco, and Bob Carleton's jet glider).
 
flibmeister said:
Not the first. We had a few military jet teams in the '70s and early '80s, including the Italian jet team (Frecce Tricolori) in 1986. Two years later, Frecce Tricolori had their accident at Ramstein AFB. Rules were changed, and since the OSH show site didn't meet the new Category I criteria, we haven't seen any jet aerobatics there since (with a few exceptions for jets not classified as Category I, such as the BD-5J, Jimmy Franklin's jet Waco, and Bob Carleton's jet glider).
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Ok. Fair enough. I didn't even know any pilots personally until 1992.
 
denverpilot said:
Ok. Fair enough. I didn't even know any pilots personally until 1992.
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Young whippersnapper.:)

I know we had the Snowbirds and a French jet team in the 70's; I think we had the Blue Angels once, too, although I wouldn't swear to that.
 
James331 said:
Chit happens.

I will take the tiny risk of that happening again over giving up ANY freedoms.

If your scared just lock yourself in your home or cubical and let the real men play outside, we'll take the risk
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:thumbsup:
 
I plan to leave Friday morning from Vintage so there's one spot they don't need to check.
 
***** all you want. I'd rather see the T-birds from a little farther back than not at all. And if some folks can't get to their aircraft for a little bit, too damn bad. If they really don't like it they can park their planes elsewhere, like in the North 40.
 
steingar said:
***** all you want. I'd rather see the T-birds from a little farther back than not at all. And if some folks can't get to their aircraft for a little bit, too damn bad. If they really don't like it they can park their planes elsewhere, like in the North 40.
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Agree. This is a tempest in a tea pot.

If it doesn't work, I'm sure we won't see them again. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the T-Birds at aviation's premiere event!
 
Jay Honeck said:
Agree. This is a tempest in a tea pot.

If it doesn't work, I'm sure we won't see them again. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the T-Birds at aviation's premiere event!
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Me too, and about time. Might be the first time I've watched the airshow from the flight line for quite a few years.
 
denverpilot said:
Bring earplugs.
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Yeah, that's always my qualm with the jets, although the T-Birds aren't too bad because they keep moving. If I never have to deal with a Harrier again it will be too soon, I doubt F-35 demos will be any quieter.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, that's always my qualm with the jets, although the T-Birds aren't too bad because they keep moving. If I never have to deal with a Harrier again it will be too soon, I doubt F-35 demos will be any quieter.
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They'd be louder yet much less impressive (other than the sound). I'd be surprised if there's ever an F-35 demo, the thing just doesn't do "airshow cool" like the 22's or one of the teams.
 
steingar said:
Me too, and about time. Might be the first time I've watched the airshow from the flight line for quite a few years.
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Having started life as an Air Force kid, I'll always have the T-Birds in my DNA, I think :) Looking forward to the show..... Noise? Bring it on!
 
lprellwitz said:
Having started life as an Air Force kid, I'll always have the T-Birds in my DNA, I think :) Looking forward to the show..... Noise? Bring it on!
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Can I wear a Navy hat? ;)

Jet noise is awesome no matter who's making it, but I'm a Blues fan through and through... :)
 
The whole airshow "box" confuses me a bit. When I have seen the blues or tbirds perform, the group of two usually has a part where one of them comes roaring over the crowd from behind.

Is the box for certain maneuvers only?
 
The box doesn't completely encompass their flight area. They go way outside the box to turn around for the next manouver. The box is just the area they need clear in front the crowd for some risk evaluation of where they might have a crash.

Note it's not just the spectator area on the EAA grounds that are curtailed. They've had to move people out of their houses at the ends of the airport. The EAA has a special "residents" viewing area set up on the east side of the field during the show to appease the displaced people.

The T-birds did make exceptions for Airventure. Normally, they'd not accept static display aircraft inside the crowd line.
 
flyingron said:
The T-birds did make exceptions for Airventure. Normally, they'd not accept static display aircraft inside the crowd line.
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Well, if they did have a crash that went into the planes, I think the entire state of Wisconsin would be on fire in pretty short order...
 
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