How would you circle on this approach?

[RussR]

I'm looking for some feedback and discussion, to see what different people think of this scenario, that is certainly not spelled out anywhere (that I know of).

You are flying the BET (PABE) RNAV (GPS)-A.

Wind is calm. You need to land on one of the paved runways.

How do you circle? There is a factor here that makes it a bit of a tricky scenario.

 

[k9medic]

Cross over the field then circle. Circling is NA west of the paved runways/

 

[KeepWatch]

Cross over the field then circle. Circling is NA west of the paved runways/

Yep. After flying over the runway which is essentially a crosswind at midfield, make Right traffic to land on RWY 1 (R or L) or make Left traffic to land on 19 (L or R)

 

[chemgeek]

Yep. Gotta read the little notes.

The "gotcha" will be if you are intending on landing on 1L or 1R, and are forced to circle east of the runway while there are VFR traffic in the pattern. All runways are left traffic. In this case if you bolt for final after circling east you will be flying against the traffic pattern on right base with potential conflicts on left base. Worse, if you are landing on 1L and VFR traffic is landing on 1R, circling east of the runway and flying a right base to 1L is a potential hazard. One could circle left into a crosswind and join the left pattern, but that has additional risk if at minimums of extending your circling time under conditions where you might lose sight of the runway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You can't circle west of the airport. OTOH, it's a towered airport so the left vs right traffic rules don't apply. Chances are ATC will give you instructions to circle east of the runways.

 

[RussR]

All of these answers are as I expected.

I will ask this, though - where is the latest point the circling maneuver can begin? I couldn’t find any references, but it seems logical to me that if you’re past the MAP and not flying the missed approach, you must then be circling. Notice the MAP itself is west of the main runways, in the circling restriction. So, once you are past the MAP, are you not commencing a circling maneuver (regardless of how you’re maneuvering) on the west side of the runways, in the restriction?

 

[midlifeflyer]

All of these answers are as I expected.

I will ask this, though - where is the latest point the circling maneuver can begin? I couldn’t find any references, but it seems logical to me that if you’re past the MAP and not flying the missed approach, you must then be circling. Notice the MAP itself is west of the main runways, in the circling restriction. So, once you are past the MAP, are you not commencing a circling maneuver (regardless of how you’re maneuvering) on the west side of the runways, in the restriction?

This is not an unusual configuration. I'd say the "circling. NA" side is simply the "non-maneuvering side." Translation- "no turns." Sometimes it's just English and it's us who make it unnecessarily complicated.

 

[dmspilot]

All of these answers are as I expected.

I will ask this, though - where is the latest point the circling maneuver can begin? I couldn’t find any references, but it seems logical to me that if you’re past the MAP and not flying the missed approach, you must then be circling. Notice the MAP itself is west of the main runways, in the circling restriction. So, once you are past the MAP, are you not commencing a circling maneuver (regardless of how you’re maneuvering) on the west side of the runways, in the restriction?

Depends on the aircraft category and whether using the old or new criteria.

 

[David Megginson]

The other answers are good, so I have nothing to add to them, but I'll mention that this is a standard VFR circuit (pattern) entry in Canada — cross midfield and join the mid-downwind (we don't use the U.S.-style 45° entry) — so it looks very unpuzzling to me.

In real life, with a few of them under my belt (never at night), I'm not sure I'd do circling approaches any more when conditions are too low for me to just cancel a couple of miles back and join the VFR circuit. They're getting much rarer these days with the proliferation of RNAV approaches, and tend to appear only when forced by nearby terrain that would make an circling approach in low IMC pretty-scary anyway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The other answers are good, so I have nothing to add to them, but I'll mention that this is a standard VFR circuit (pattern) entry in Canada — cross midfield and join the mid-downwind (we don't use the U.S.-style 45° entry) — so it looks very unpuzzling to me.

It's unpuzzlung to me toO and I'm in the US.

It's not really about the crosswind entry. That issue is irrelevant at a towered airport. Besides, the FAA finally accepted the validity midfield crosswind entry several years ago.

 

[RussR]

Depends on the aircraft category and whether using the old or new criteria.

None of the questions I asked about where circling begins depend on new vs old circling radii or aircraft category.

The AIM and the IPH/IFH do not have a diagram of the circling areas when there's a restriction, but this is from the FAAO 8260.3E. I added the flight path as if this was similar to the procedure in question. The orange area is the "no circling here" zone.

 

[RussR]

A few weeks ago, I posted a question asking "a chart says Procedure NA at night, can I fly it down to VFR and then land?" and the overwhelming response was "it says NA at night, therefore it's NA at night, no ypou can't".

To me, this question is similar. The chart says "no circling west of the main runways". Once you get to the MAP, which is measurably west of the runways, whether you fly straight ahead or not, you have begun your circling maneuver, and you are west of the runways. Therefore you are technically violating the restriction, no? But the answers here are "it's okay".

This is an interesting (to me) difference in opinion.

Notice that the other procedures at this airport all have the same circling restriction, as is normal with these things. For them, it works - they're all straight-in to the main runways, or nearly so. But it was applied to this procedure as well by default.

Now, I'm also not an idiot. I, along with everybody else, would probably do exactly what everybody says above if I actually had to fly this procedure. Because what I believe to be the "technically correct" answer also makes the procedure NA for all purposes.

 

[dmspilot]

None of the questions I asked about where circling begins depend on new vs old circling radii or aircraft category.

Where you can circle and where you can't seems to have a lot to do with the circling radii to me.

 

[RussR]

Where you can circle and where you can't seems to have a lot to do with the circling radii to me.

I don't really think so in this scenario, since the actual distance isn't really relevant here. Once you get to the MAP and begin circling, you are well within any of the radii, either old or new. I edited my first response to you while you were typing, see above.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Where you can circle and where you can't seems to have a lot to do with the circling radii to me.

Do the circling radii include any airspace on the side of the airport that you’re not allowed to circle?

 

[dmspilot]

I don't really think so in this scenario, since the actual distance isn't really relevant here. I edited my first response to you while you were typing, see above.

Do the circling radii include any airspace on the side of the airport that you’re not allowed to circle?

The question was, "where is the latest point the circling maneuver can begin?" Not earliest.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The question was, "where is the latest point the circling maneuver can begin?" Not earliest.

But in the context of the rest of the question, the earliest is what he actually meant.

(now where’s that psychic smilie when I need it?)

and my question still stands, relevant or not.

 

[dmspilot]

A few weeks ago, I posted a question asking "a chart says Procedure NA at night, can I fly it down to VFR and then land?" and the overwhelming response was "it says NA at night, therefore it's NA at night, no ypou can't".

To me, this question is similar. The chart says "no circling west of the main runways". Once you get to the MAP, which is measurably west of the runways, whether you fly straight ahead or not, you have begun your circling maneuver, and you are west of the runways. Therefore you are technically violating the restriction, no? But the answers here are "it's okay".

This is an interesting (to me) difference in opinion.

Notice that the other procedures at this airport all have the same circling restriction, as is normal with these things. For them, it works - they're all straight-in to the main runways, or nearly so. But it was applied to this procedure as well by default.

Now, I'm also not an idiot. I, along with everybody else, would probably do exactly what everybody says above if I actually had to fly this procedure. Because what I believe to be the "technically correct" answer also makes the procedure NA for all purposes.

As the entire runway is west of 1/19, and only circling minimums are published, if one were to buy into your premise, then the procedure could not be performed at all. Why publish an IAP that cannot be used under any circumstance?

 

[dtuuri]

...whether you fly straight ahead or not, you have begun your circling maneuver, and you are west of the runways. Therefore you are technically violating the restriction, no?

Isn't this similar to a "fly visual to airport" concept? Are those types of approaches forbidden to have restricted circling areas?

 

[k9medic]

.... Sometimes it's just English and it's us who make it unnecessarily complicated.

Like the term "diverse departure."

 

[EdFred]

At what point is it considered flying the pattern versus circling?

 

[EugeneR]

I don’t understand what MAP location has to do with circling? The only requirement to go missed is if you don’t see the airport at MAP. Otherwise you can continue past MAP and circle on the east side. As long as you are within protected airspace and have the airport in sight, you are fine.

 

[wsuffa]

At what point is it considered flying the pattern versus circling?

Unles I'm reading it wrong (long day today) the circling altitude is below pattern altitude.

 

[EdFred]

Unles I'm reading it wrong (long day today) the circling altitude is below pattern altitude.

That's sort of my point. You break out at pattern altitude but you don't have VFR clearance because clouds aren't 500' above. Are you flying the pattern or or are you circling?

 

[wsuffa]

That's sort of my point. You break out at pattern altitude but you don't have VFR clearance because clouds aren't 500' above. Are you flying the pattern or or are you circling?

Circling - you're still on an IFR clearance. Unless you get a special.

 

[David Megginson]

A few weeks ago, I posted a question asking "a chart says Procedure NA at night, can I fly it down to VFR and then land?" and the overwhelming response was "it says NA at night, therefore it's NA at night, no ypou can't".

I would agree with that response, especially not knowing why the IAP was N/A at night (noise? terrain? airspace use?). However, if you were in controlled airspace and in contact with ATC, then they'd be well within their rights to clear you to a descent via the approach with a minimum altitude restriction.

To me, this question is similar. The chart says "no circling west of the main runways". Once you get to the MAP, which is measurably west of the runways, whether you fly straight ahead or not, you have begun your circling maneuver, and you are west of the runways. Therefore you are technically violating the restriction, no? But the answers here are "it's okay".

The descent profile depicts arriving at MDA and levelling out a bit west of the airport, but doesn't depict the missed approach until over the facility. Likewise, the overhead view doesn't show a dashed line for the missed until over the facility. Do you mean just that the GPS position of the MAP is a few dozen yards to the west, at the threshold of Runway 12? I suspect that's splitting a hair too fine for aviation. Regardless, the MAP is over the airfield, and by the time you've taken a second or two to confirm you're past the MAP, you"ll be east of the runway as well.

Cheers David

 

[midlifeflyer]

At what point is it considered flying the pattern versus circling?

I love that question! There's probably a technical answer like, it remains circling so long as the airspace is being protected for the missed. You are still on an instrument approach and subject to its terminology and restrictions,

But the practical reality can be different. This one has a tower. Let's take the tower away, make the ceiling high enough for VFR traffic to be flying the regulatory left traffic to the 1s.

 

[aterpster]

I'm looking for some feedback and discussion, to see what different people think of this scenario, that is certainly not spelled out anywhere (that I know of).

You are flying the BET (PABE) RNAV (GPS)-A.

Wind is calm. You need to land on one of the paved runways.

How do you circle? There is a factor here that makes it a bit of a tricky scenario.

If I needed to land on one of the paved runways, why would I be requesting this lousy IAP to the gravel runway? "F" for judgment on that one.

Having said that, this Part 97 procedure requires you to enter the CMA not later than the MAP. (Direction of turns is a separate issue.)

 

[PaulS]

Interesting approach. Circling approaches are usually below pattern altitude, if you look at the plate, there is an obstacle pretty close to the airport, at 409 feet. Obviously that is the issue with circling west of the airport, which you can start at 660 feet , a mere 251 feet above this obstacle.

Not sure what makes this more tricky than any other circling approach, especially with a tower there, who will direct which runway you use.

 

[RussR]

It seems I did a poor job of explaining what I feel is the issue. I will try again.

Consider a "normal" approach, for example one that is straight-in aligned to the runway. You need to circle to another runway. As you come down final, you begin that circle (i.e. no longer following the approach procedure) once you get the airport in sight, and are within the circling radius for your category. That's the "earliest" you can begin it. But once you get to the MAP, you either need to be circling OR executing the missed approach - there isn't really any other choice. Notice that "circling" doesn't necessarily mean "turning" - in a circling maneuver there are times you are flying straight too. So once you get to the MAP, if you aren't going missed, you are by definition circling - even if you're not turning yet. I call this the "latest" point the circling maneuver begins - at the MAP. You can choose to start it earlier, but if you are staying visual and not doing the missed approach, then once you get past the MAP, you are de facto in a circling maneuver.

On the example procedure, though, the final course comes through the circling restriction. And the MAP itself is within the circling restriction. Once you get to the MAP, if you don't go missed, then you are executing a circling maneuver, even if that "maneuver" is "fly straight". Therefore, you are circling within the restriction, which is specifically prohibited.

Furthermore, if you look at the circling restriction example from the 8260.3E, you see that the circling restriction area is NOT evaluated for obstacles, and that this circling restriction starts right at the centerline of the runway. In the figure 2-7-2, those 584 and 603 MSL towers are not used to calculate the circling MDA - nothing in the light orange part is.



Now, in the case of Bethel, AK, I'm not really too concerned about the obstacle situation, because the evaluation for the final approach segment pretty much covers anywhere you're reasonably likely to go. And it's only about 1/3 of a nm that you have fly to get into the approved circling area. But that may or may not be true at another airport and procedure with different geometry.

I will also say, that of the 6 examples provided in FAAO 8260.3E about circling restrictions, they all include several hypothetical flight tracks, and none of them come through the restriction. Not that that sets policy, but I did think it was interesting.

I am trying to find another example where the final approach course comes through a circling restriction, but it's a tough search, especially since most desirable would be a MAP that is even further into the restriction that at BET. EEO has a couple, but those MAPs appear to put you basically right over the runway centerline. Same at 20V.

 

[luvflyin]

It seems I did a poor job of explaining what I feel is the issue. I will try again.

Consider a "normal" approach, for example one that is straight-in aligned to the runway. You need to circle to another runway. As you come down final, you begin that circle (i.e. no longer following the approach procedure) once you get the airport in sight, and are within the circling radius for your category. That's the "earliest" you can begin it. But once you get to the MAP, you either need to be circling OR executing the missed approach - there isn't really any other choice. Notice that "circling" doesn't necessarily mean "turning" - in a circling maneuver there are times you are flying straight too. So once you get to the MAP, if you aren't going missed, you are by definition circling - even if you're not turning yet. I call this the "latest" point the circling maneuver begins - at the MAP. You can choose to start it earlier, but if you are staying visual and not doing the missed approach, then once you get past the MAP, you are de facto in a circling maneuver.

On the example procedure, though, the final course comes through the circling restriction. And the MAP itself is within the circling restriction. Once you get to the MAP, if you don't go missed, then you are executing a circling maneuver, even if that "maneuver" is "fly straight". Therefore, you are circling within the restriction, which is specifically prohibited.

Furthermore, if you look at the circling restriction example from the 8260.3E, you see that the circling restriction area is NOT evaluated for obstacles, and that this circling restriction starts right at the centerline of the runway. In the figure 2-7-2, those 584 and 603 MSL towers are not used to calculate the circling MDA - nothing in the light orange part is.

View attachment 91242

Now, in the case of Bethel, AK, I'm not really too concerned about the obstacle situation, because the evaluation for the final approach segment pretty much covers anywhere you're reasonably likely to go. And it's only about 1/3 of a nm that you have fly to get into the approved circling area. But that may or may not be true at another airport and procedure with different geometry.

I will also say, that of the 6 examples provided in FAAO 8260.3E about circling restrictions, they all include several hypothetical flight tracks, and none of them come through the restriction. Not that that sets policy, but I did think it was interesting.

I am trying to find another example where the final approach course comes through a circling restriction, but it's a tough search, especially since most desirable would be a MAP that is even further into the restriction that at BET. EEO has a couple, but those MAPs appear to put you basically right over the runway centerline. Same at 20V.

It is kinda ‘catch22y.’ It would be interesting to see what rational ‘they’ would give if you asked them through the IFP Gateway.

 

[sarangan]

This is a valid question to ask, even if it makes little difference in real life. The argument would make the entire approach invalid. But I am more curious why one would choose this approach over the straight-in approaches available for the paved runway. There is ILS, LPV and all kinds of other approaches available for 19R and 1L.

 

[PaulS]

These approaches are pretty closely vetted, but mistakes do happen. I see your point about once you are past the MAP and have decided to circle you have technically broken the no circle west rule for this approac, but I think on this one you are over thinking it. The rule would be ridiculous to read and understand if they attempted to rewrite it for all these variations. I've let it go, you should too.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It seems I did a poor job of explaining what I feel is the issue. I will try again.

Consider a "normal" approach, for example one that is straight-in aligned to the runway. You need to circle to another runway. As you come down final, you begin that circle (i.e. no longer following the approach procedure) once you get the airport in sight, and are within the circling radius for your category. That's the "earliest" you can begin it. But once you get to the MAP, you either need to be circling OR executing the missed approach - there isn't really any other choice. Notice that "circling" doesn't necessarily mean "turning" - in a circling maneuver there are times you are flying straight too. So once you get to the MAP, if you aren't going missed, you are by definition circling - even if you're not turning yet. I call this the "latest" point the circling maneuver begins - at the MAP. You can choose to start it earlier, but if you are staying visual and not doing the missed approach, then once you get past the MAP, you are de facto in a circling maneuver.

On the example procedure, though, the final course comes through the circling restriction. And the MAP itself is within the circling restriction. Once you get to the MAP, if you don't go missed, then you are executing a circling maneuver, even if that "maneuver" is "fly straight". Therefore, you are circling within the restriction, which is specifically prohibited.

Furthermore, if you look at the circling restriction example from the 8260.3E, you see that the circling restriction area is NOT evaluated for obstacles, and that this circling restriction starts right at the centerline of the runway. In the figure 2-7-2, those 584 and 603 MSL towers are not used to calculate the circling MDA - nothing in the light orange part is.

View attachment 91242

Now, in the case of Bethel, AK, I'm not really too concerned about the obstacle situation, because the evaluation for the final approach segment pretty much covers anywhere you're reasonably likely to go. And it's only about 1/3 of a nm that you have fly to get into the approved circling area. But that may or may not be true at another airport and procedure with different geometry.

I will also say, that of the 6 examples provided in FAAO 8260.3E about circling restrictions, they all include several hypothetical flight tracks, and none of them come through the restriction. Not that that sets policy, but I did think it was interesting.

I am trying to find another example where the final approach course comes through a circling restriction, but it's a tough search, especially since most desirable would be a MAP that is even further into the restriction that at BET. EEO has a couple, but those MAPs appear to put you basically right over the runway centerline. Same at 20V.

Great job finding complexity in something simple, Russ. This is similar to the letter to the Chief Counsel some years ago asking whether the 45 degree entry violates the left pattern rule.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is a valid question to ask, even if it makes little difference in real life. The argument would make the entire approach invalid. But I am more curious why one would choose this approach over the straight-in approaches available for the paved runway. There is ILS, LPV and all kinds of other approaches available for 19R and 1L.

You might be surprised. We lost a bunch of VOR approaches in my area. Not due to MON - the VOR itself remains. One, however stayed despite straight in LPV approaches to both ends of the runway and an ILS to one of them. The rumored reason is a business operation which likes the shortcut the VOR-A gives them when coming from certain directions - it empties on a perfect 45 to the downwind

 

[luvflyin]

This is a valid question to ask, even if it makes little difference in real life. The argument would make the entire approach invalid. But I am more curious why one would choose this approach over the straight-in approaches available for the paved runway. There is ILS, LPV and all kinds of other approaches available for 19R and 1L.

If you’re coming from the West it could save you some gas. If you wanted to land on 12 that would be the way to do it. All the other approaches don’t allow it. The MDA is pretty low, 531 AGL, it would be easy enough for most to land straight in.

 

[wsuffa]

It seems I did a poor job of explaining what I feel is the issue. I will try again.

Consider a "normal" approach, for example one that is straight-in aligned to the runway. You need to circle to another runway. As you come down final, you begin that circle (i.e. no longer following the approach procedure) once you get the airport in sight, and are within the circling radius for your category. That's the "earliest" you can begin it. But once you get to the MAP, you either need to be circling OR executing the missed approach - there isn't really any other choice. Notice that "circling" doesn't necessarily mean "turning" - in a circling maneuver there are times you are flying straight too. So once you get to the MAP, if you aren't going missed, you are by definition circling - even if you're not turning yet. I call this the "latest" point the circling maneuver begins - at the MAP. You can choose to start it earlier, but if you are staying visual and not doing the missed approach, then once you get past the MAP, you are de facto in a circling maneuver.

On the example procedure, though, the final course comes through the circling restriction. And the MAP itself is within the circling restriction. Once you get to the MAP, if you don't go missed, then you are executing a circling maneuver, even if that "maneuver" is "fly straight". Therefore, you are circling within the restriction, which is specifically prohibited.

Furthermore, if you look at the circling restriction example from the 8260.3E, you see that the circling restriction area is NOT evaluated for obstacles, and that this circling restriction starts right at the centerline of the runway. In the figure 2-7-2, those 584 and 603 MSL towers are not used to calculate the circling MDA - nothing in the light orange part is.

View attachment 91242

Now, in the case of Bethel, AK, I'm not really too concerned about the obstacle situation, because the evaluation for the final approach segment pretty much covers anywhere you're reasonably likely to go. And it's only about 1/3 of a nm that you have fly to get into the approved circling area. But that may or may not be true at another airport and procedure with different geometry.

I will also say, that of the 6 examples provided in FAAO 8260.3E about circling restrictions, they all include several hypothetical flight tracks, and none of them come through the restriction. Not that that sets policy, but I did think it was interesting.

I am trying to find another example where the final approach course comes through a circling restriction, but it's a tough search, especially since most desirable would be a MAP that is even further into the restriction that at BET. EEO has a couple, but those MAPs appear to put you basically right over the runway centerline. Same at 20V.

You're making this way too complicated. Review the criteria for going missed: you must go missed if there is not sufficient visual reference to the runway environment to continue (there are a couple of other criteria for going missed that aren't particularly relevant).

So you hit the MAP and either have the runway (or runway environment) or you don't. You have it, you continue and circle. You don't have visual - you go missed. If you lose visual reference, you commence the missed.

In this case the approach segment ends at the runway, meaning that you don't enter circling until you're on the correct side of the runway.

 

[David Megginson]

I love that question! There's probably a technical answer like, it remains circling so long as the airspace is being protected for the missed. You are still on an instrument approach and subject to its terminology and restrictions,

But the practical reality can be different. This one has a tower. Let's take the tower away, make the ceiling high enough for VFR traffic to be flying the regulatory left traffic to the 1s.

In your hypothetical example, is the untowered airport control zone itself class G? In that case, you can just cancel your own IFR and join the VFR pattern (granted, you'll still need to let ATC know when you're down).

I know you don't think much about IFR ops in class G in the continental U.S., because you have so little usable class G airspace. In Canada, once you get north of the populated areas near the U.S. border, there's a lot of class G, to the point that we even have a reserved squawk code of 1000 for uncontrolled IFR (similar to 1200 for VFR). If a small airport is far away from busy terminal airspace and untowered, would it be usual to make its control zone class G, or are the control zones for all U.S. airports with instrument approaches class E?


Cheers, David

 

[midlifeflyer]

you can just cancel your own IFR and join the VFR pattern

Of course. Once you cancel IFR, you are just another VFR aircraft.

 

[sarangan]

I would interpret the "circling approach" as a different thing from "circling west of Rwy". The first refers to the approach name, and the second refers to the act of turning an airplane. In other words, you could be on a circling approach but if you fly straight ahead you would not be violating the "circling NA" clause. At least that's what I am thinking..