How to transition from renting trainers to purchasing a larger plane?

Michael M

Michael M

Filing Flight Plan
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Pembroke Advisor
Thanks in advance to the POA community for ideas, suggestions, recommendations on this topic. I searched the forum but did not find much on so I figured I would post in hopes it would help other newbie's.

I passed my PPL check ride in late January with all of my training having been done in 172s. I have started to fly Archers and a Cherokee 140 the last few weeks, having a CFI tag along first to get me checked out and now to get me comfortable in the pipers. Based on about 4 hour so far in the pipers, I figure I will feel OK soloing the Archers and Cherokee 140 available to me in another 1-5 hours.

After reading recommendations from the POA forum and other research, a Cherokee 6 (or one of its relatives) is probably the correct plane for my mission - clearly I am not the only one in this camp.

My question for the community is, what is a good way to strategize/ come up with a plan for the transition from green, newbie pilot flying "trainers" to a "big" plane?

My thinking (which could easily be wrong) is I should do one or some combination of the following:
  • Fly rented / club Archer's and don't think about buying anything until I have "mastered" the Archers.
  • Buy an Archer and worry about the big plane later - even though the Archer is slower and has a smaller useful load than I would use, I could still cover my mission about 50% of the time.
  • Fly Archers until I find a Cherokee 6 I really like buy it and find an intensive school where I could learn to fly the Cherokee 6 in a shorter period of time.
  • Find a CFI who is experienced in Cherokee 6s and willing to teach me in my own plane, buy a Cherokee 6 now and learn in the bigger plane.
Much appreciate any comments, I am sure I am missing many of the best ways to proceed.
Michael
 
My lance doesn’t fly much different than an archer really. On the other hand, due to its size and the larger engine, it’s definitely more intimidating, but that’s mostly mental. If it were me, I’d start shopping for a good 6, and train in whatever is fun and convenient while you’re finding a good one. Getting at least 10 hours in a 6 before purchasing should help with insurance.
 
Make sure you understand the cost of ownership. Tons of posts on the subject. Also even though the 6 isn’t a complicated airframe, insurance maybe the long poll in the tent at the end of the day until you build some hours.
 
Find a partner or club with the plane you want. Do 10-25hrs dual with CFI. Get instrument rating in plane.

Or

Go to FBO, get high performance, complex endorsement, join club or partnership. Get instrument in plane.
 
Option 4. Basically go for it. The flying ISNT that big of a deal. The headwork (decision making) IS. Only gonna get that by flying, and reading, being conservative, and smart.

Start pushing out your envelope.
 
Responses to this inquiry will vary but with low time, your wallet and the insurance companies will likely dictate your short term plans. One thing I probably wouldn't do is buy an intermediate airplane if good rentals are available to you and the rental terms aren't too restrictive.
 
Thanks for these!

I joined a club and it is great! 3 archers available to fly at the club. Instrument, Complex and High performance training available at the club. The club terms and rates are good. My mission however dictates taking a plane with me for 7-14 days per month roughly 700nm away from home most all months of the year (I do this via commercial flights now). Although it is possible to do this with club planes it would become costly and generally would not be ideal for the club/ members.

No doubt insurance is a factor! I have been quoted about 2.5X more expensive than an Archer for a Cherokee 6 until I have 500 hours and an instrument rating. I expect to have 500 total hours and IR by the end of next year (2024). The IR would provide a 5% discount but I am not clear what the 500 hours provides (beyond comfort to the insurer).
 
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You're overthinking it. Assuming you can afford the plane and insurance, you just buy the plane and have a CFI teach you to fly it, complying with any insurance requirements as you do so. Cherokee 6's aren't a rare beast, lots of CFIs have time in them, so it shouldn't be hard to find one. Insurance might require 10 hours with a CFI, so you go do that over a few days and you're done. Make sure they sign off a high performance endorsement along the way.
 
I bought my Lance with about 200 hours and a still-wet instrument ticket. I did all my training in Pipers, so they were very familiar, but now that I've got a little 172 time, it wouldn't be all that hard to transition. One single engine piston isn't all that different from another. Insurance required 10 hours transition training in the Lance (I had no prior retract time, either) before I could fly it solo, but by about hour 8 I felt comfortable. The jump from the Archer to the Dakota felt more significant than the step up to the Lance.

Owning an airplane is a lot more work than you expect. I have it easy with a good shop here at my home base, but the learning curve was still steep. Buying an airplane is almost like getting another rating in terms of the amount of effort and things to learn. I would gently suggest getting your instrument done first, so you're not trying to do that while you're learning the new plane and jumping the ownership hurdles. That will grease the skids with the insurance company a bit too. I set the goal of completing my instrument before I bought a plane, which provided a little extra motivation to get it done as fast as possible.

Any hours you build now will be valuable. It seems like different insurance companies have different "break points" where you get lower rates, but 250ish and 500ish were noticeable. Maybe as much as 10% in my case, although it's hard to tell with what insurance and airplane values have done over the couple years since I bought mine. If you have any inkling you might want a Lance vs a Six (and with a regular 700mi trip, you might), retract time will be extra valuable. If your club has an Arrow, fly the heck out of it.
 
First, find a good mechanic. Better yet find two or three in your area who’d work with you. Our experience has been that one guy doesn’t have all the answers. Our usual guy is experienced and is also a pilot who fly and fixes Baslers out in the weirdest places, but when we had engine vibrations his best advice was get ready for an overhaul. He also did the prebuy and didn’t noticed any issue with the engine where as the other guy we found (the mechanics knows each other and work together too) sat in the plane on the ground and figured out it was valves within seconds. We had spent a fair number of shop hours with the big shop here before our new second mechanic figured it out. And all of the mechanics involved work in some capacity with said big shop. And previously we had the engine looked at by the high priced other major shop at the field. Just goes to show you kinda need the right person in this hobby. And word of mouth doesn’t always work, I am sorry to say.

The biggest challenge I have found is maintenance. You’ll go out there and see ads and they’d say things like no money spared and well maintained. Yeah there are unicorns like that but chances are you’ll find nothing that doesn’t have a handful or more of SBs not done. And some of them can sound quite scary. For us we ended up doing up the list of SBs comparing it with the logs and now we have a plan with our guy to work our way through the important one. And I’d be lying if I say we’ll do all of them, as the costs will be prohibitive. So we pick the ones which are riskier and leave some to inspection and some willful ignorance.

Everything costs a lot because it’s certified . And surprising things will break. Latest for us is a bad breaker. As we say, old stuff breaks. And I am sure we’ll find more and more stuff as we go along.
 
Michael M said:
Thanks for these!

...My mission however dictates taking a plane with me for 7-14 days per month roughly 700nm away from home most all months of the year (I do this via commercial flights now)...
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Even after you get an airplane, keep the commercial flight option open. Unless your schedule is extremely flexible, flying your own airplane can be challenging to fit in safe weather margins for this kind of travel.
 
Be ready to pay a high premium in the Six for insurance untill you build some time. Start working on your instrument rating ,will come in handy for the capabilities of the Six. The six isn’t really that difficult a check out.
 
Lots of things to consider, but as far as the actual flying, heavier than a 140 but they fly similarly. You won’t have an issue with the flying.
 
Would insurance be cheaper for the 6 if you remove 2 seats and tell the insurance company you will not carry more than 4 people?
 
MountainDude said:
Would insurance be cheaper for the 6 if you remove 2 seats and tell the insurance company you will not carry more than 4 people?
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A Cherokee 6 with only 4 seats. Sounds like a Dakota or Pathfinder to me.
 
Do the math. Expect to pay around 15% the value of the plane in fixing the stuff the seller didn't want to mess with in the first year. Seems like that's my average after 10 planes. Budget the insurance-hangar cost annually, write that down. Divide that by the going rental rate for a 6 seater to give you how many hours of rental it costs you to park your plane without moving it.

Never mind the cost of an annual inspection, that'll be cheap...for an inspection.

Cash? Loan? They both have their merits.

Fuel and oil will be noise in the budget.

Best money I've ever spent owning a 6 seater
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Fuel and oil will be noise in the budget.
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I was with you up until here. Fuel is somewhere between 1/3-1/2 of the budget if you fly enough to justify owning your own plane. I agree though that mx takes a much bigger bite than expected. Purchase cost is the noise in the budget. If you can afford to operate and maintain an airplane, you can afford to buy one. Step one is figuring out how much money you can afford to set on fire every year without ruining your life.
 
Jim K said:
I was with you up until here. Fuel is somewhere between 1/3-1/2 of the budget if you fly enough to justify owning your own plane. I agree though that mx takes a much bigger bite than expected. Purchase cost is the noise in the budget. If you can afford to operate and maintain an airplane, you can afford to buy one. Step one is figuring out how much money you can afford to set on fire every year without ruining your life.
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For a 300 HP engine, absolutely true. With my Mooney at 8gph for max speed, fuel was an afterthought. It was a bit of a shocker when I moved to the Lance and started burning 12-14 gph at Econo speeds.
 
Salty said:
For a 300 HP engine, absolutely true. With my Mooney at 8gph for max speed, fuel was an afterthought. It was a bit of a shocker when I moved to the Lance and started burning 12-14 gph at Econo speeds.
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Well moonies are weird :p. I'd argue the ratio still holds though. 8gph x $6/gal is $48/hr, which I bet is still in that 1/3-1/2 range. Now, if gas ever gets down to $3 again (not holding my breath), that changes the math.
 
The transition to a bigger faster cooler airplane will be the easy part as others have said here. The ownership factor is a whole new world. I have a GREAT relationship with the flight school where I did my PPL training. They did my prebuy (for free), I rent hangar space from them, they do all my MX work without having to wait in line.
However even with this great relationship there is still a ton of moving parts to ownership. ie subscriptions (xm garmin) avionics updates, pop up mx items, something that sounds as simple as cleaning the airplane. I've waxed a fair amount of big vehicles in my day but getting a good coat of wax on an airplane takes a long friggen time. LOL

That being said when you are out touring the countryside or even just a quick 30 minute flight on a week night after work there is not a lot that compares to flying in general but it is significantly better flying your own airplane.
 
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frfly172 said:
Be ready to pay a high premium in the Six for insurance untill you build some time. Start working on your instrument rating ,will come in handy for the capabilities of the Six. The six isn’t really that difficult a check out.
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If you're flying regularly, that's for a year. What's the hours thresholds to step down to the next levels?
 
Without reading the other posts, best would be to find one that you can rent, even from a private owner, to get checked out and build a few hours.

First, this will give you the chance to see if the airplane really fits your mission and needs. And secondly, it will REALLY reduce your first year insurance price to have 10 or 25 hours time in Make/Model.

Instrument rating will also reduce your insurance costs.

Look at all the costs. You can get an idea of insurance costs by calling AVEMCO and a broker (I use Falcon now, but will be shopping) to get a rough idea. Check your local prices for tie down and/or hangar. And ask about availability and wait time. I was lucky, I got the last T-hangar, until they build another row.

As your local shop for an idea of base price for an annual. And price for oil change (unless you plan on doing them yourself.

Look at the cost of fuel in your area and ask owners about fuel burn.

Figure up all the costs and see if it makes sense to buy, and that you can afford it.
 
Tools said:
Option 4. Basically go for it. The flying ISNT that big of a deal. The headwork (decision making) IS. Only gonna get that by flying, and reading, being conservative, and smart.

Start pushing out your envelope.
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I agree with this. Moving from a trainer to a Cherokee Six isn’t that big of a change. In many ways it will be easier to fly. In my experience the size of the plane is far less important than Time In Type for a similar airframe (ASEL). Getting experience and comfort with the platform, avionics, etc. is what will make you a better, safer pilot. If/when you move to a more complicated plane the degree of difficulty would increase (e.g. multi engine, complex)
 
Jim K said:
I was with you up until here. Fuel is somewhere between 1/3-1/2 of the budget if you fly enough to justify owning your own plane.
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I was with you up till here :) How much fuel do ya need to burn to justify owning an airplane? I'll pickle the engines and sleep on the hangar floor again to keep my plane... and I won't even have had spent any AMU's on avgas! Is Ramen still 99 cents for 24?

Funny aside, I thumbed up your post.
 
Eric Stoltz said:
Is Ramen still 99 cents for 24?
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Lol...I just asked the commissar (Mrs. K), who reported that Ramen is now $3.50/12. I like to put some canned chicken in mine because I'm a rich airplane owner :p

Eric Stoltz said:
How much fuel do ya need to burn to justify owning an airplane?
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You don't have to justify owning anything you want to own, but in my book an airplane wants to fly at least once a week. If you're flying less than ~75ish hours a year, financially it makes more sense to rent IF you can find a plane to rent that fits your mission. Of course claiming that flying a small airplane makes "financial sense" in the first place is a stretch.
 
M2C Don't buy yet. Get your instrument. Fly different planes for a year or so to really get the feel for each one and to get a good idea of what your flying will really be like. Then pick your plane.
 
I bought a Cherokee 6 with about 125hrs mostly in an Archer and 172’s. Insurance was about 2k a year without an instrument rating. Transitioning from the Archer to the 6 was no big deal. If you have the money, start looking now, and keep building time in the Archers. It will probably take a while to find the one.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
It makes perfect sense if the alternative is setting fire to cash directly.
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The old saying was, owning a sailboat is like standing in a shower, with just the cold water running, fully clothed, tearing up $100 bills.

And airplane is the same, but without the running water. :D
 
WDD said:
M2C Don't buy yet. Get your instrument. Fly different planes for a year or so to really get the feel for each one and to get a good idea of what your flying will really be like. Then pick your plane.
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Where do you rent a big Cherokee (Six, Saratoga, Lance, etc)? Where do you rent a Bonanza? Mooney? 210 (or any Cessna bigger than a 182)? Or any of the many other choices?

More realistic is to define your mission, research what fits your mission, and see if an owner will take you for a flight to see how they are. And then you take your chances and buy. If you made wrong choices, you just bought your first airplane. If you did a good job, you may have bought your only airplane.

Most people find that their actual mission is not what they thought. They think of the whole family taking long trips. Then wife doesn't like flying, and kids grow up and are doing their things.

The one place that owning REALLY shines, is if you do actually take trips. Where you can take your plane for an hour or two, stay for a week and come home, without paying for some number of hours per day away, even if you are not flying. And being able to do so on short notice.
 
All of these are extremely helpful, thanks for posting. From the looks of it I am more or less on the right track.

In addition to flying as much as possible and in as many different makes/ models as possible, here is generally what I have gathered from these posts about making the transition from renting smaller planes to purchasing a bigger plane as a newbie:
  • Have shops/ mechanics lined up first.
  • Instrument rating before buying can be a big help.
  • Tie down/ Shade Hangar/ Hangar space should be obtained first.
  • Budgeting and running numbers is really important.
  • Think about the time, effort, money, etc. of ownership like adding a new rating.
  • Hours in Make/ Model if possible will help with insurance costs, mission confirmation and overall training.
  • Become better friends with pilots who fly and own the Make/ Model you aspire to purchase.
I will be working on the above to cover the items I don't currently have covered and touch up what is not quite there yet.

Any Lance/ Saratoga/ Six owners in Oregon or Nevada, let me know when you have time for me to buy you lunch?
 
Michael M said:
All of these are extremely helpful, thanks for posting. From the looks of it I am more or less on the right track.

In addition to flying as much as possible and in as many different makes/ models as possible, here is generally what I have gathered from these posts about making the transition from renting smaller planes to purchasing a bigger plane as a newbie:
  • Have shops/ mechanics lined up first.
  • Instrument rating before buying can be a big help.
  • Tie down/ Shade Hangar/ Hangar space should be obtained first.
  • Budgeting and running numbers is really important.
  • Think about the time, effort, money, etc. of ownership like adding a new rating.
  • Hours in Make/ Model if possible will help with insurance costs, mission confirmation and overall training.
  • Become better friends with pilots who fly and own the Make/ Model you aspire to purchase.
I will be working on the above to cover the items I don't currently have covered and touch up what is not quite there yet.

Any Lance/ Saratoga/ Six owners in Oregon or Nevada, let me know when you have time for me to buy you lunch?
Click to expand...
I own a 235 in Las Vegas. Not a 6 but I can let you know my experience as a first time plane owner.
 
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