How to solve the US pilot shortage

luvflyin said:
So is that pilot and flight attendant 19% collective? Or are they each 19%?
Click to expand...

  1. Financial (Bankers, brokers, analysts, etc.) 21%
  2. Aviation (Pilots, flight attendants, flight pursers, etc.) 19%
  3. Healthcare (Doctors, nurses, nursing assistants, etc.) 15%
  4. Business (CEOs, managers, secretaries, etc.) 12%
  5. Sports (Athletes, instructors, representatives, etc.) 11%
  6. Arts (Musicians, models, actors, photographers, etc.) 7%
  7. Nightlife Industry (DJs, dancers, waiters, etc.) 6%
  8. Communication (Journalists, public relations, communicators, etc.) 5%
  9. Legal (Lawyers, secretaries, prosecutors, judges, etc.) 4%
  10. Other sectors 2%
 
jordane93 said:
The 205K number is BS and we don’t even have 777s anymore. Must be an old article or just a really bad writer who didn’t do any research.
Click to expand...

I know looking at pay scales when there were 777s, the 787 and A350 paid more.
 
dmspilot said:
  1. Financial (Bankers, brokers, analysts, etc.) 21%
  2. Aviation (Pilots, flight attendants, flight pursers, etc.) 19%
  3. Healthcare (Doctors, nurses, nursing assistants, etc.) 15%
  4. Business (CEOs, managers, secretaries, etc.) 12%
  5. Sports (Athletes, instructors, representatives, etc.) 11%
  6. Arts (Musicians, models, actors, photographers, etc.) 7%
  7. Nightlife Industry (DJs, dancers, waiters, etc.) 6%
  8. Communication (Journalists, public relations, communicators, etc.) 5%
  9. Legal (Lawyers, secretaries, prosecutors, judges, etc.) 4%
  10. Other sectors 2%
Click to expand...
Now they got pursers and etceterers in on the action
 
In economics a shortage occurs when the price the consumers (airlines) are willing to pay for the commodity (pilot labor) is lower than the equilibrium price and the suppliers (pilots) decide not to sell their product (labor) on the market. If the price (salary) increases to the point that the suppliers (pilots) are willing to sell their product (labor) then the shortage will - eventually - end.
 
Velocity173 said:
Military is probably 50 %. What happens on deployment, stays on deployment. Unless it’s Thailand…sometimes you bring that **** back with ya. :D
Click to expand...
Good catch. Men's Health magazine obviously has no veterans on staff. The military is its own category without a doubt. But in reality it's not a job, either.
 
Last edited:
Jon Howard said:
In economics a shortage occurs when the price the consumers (airlines) are willing to pay for the commodity (pilot labor) is lower than the equilibrium price and the suppliers (pilots) decide not to sell their product (labor) on the market. If the price (salary) increases to the point that the suppliers (pilots) are willing to sell their product (labor) then the shortage will - eventually - end.
Click to expand...

In a normal world you are right. In this post COVID world, there is a massive labor shortage impacting every industry. While your basic economics still apply, there is a competing force out there offering competing incentives to employers, which is rapidly driving wages and inflation.
 
I looked at a few regionals recently, and one thing that most said was "Hotel rooms during training will be shared".

They want to employ professionals who've put 6 figures into their training, to be responsible for tens of lives and millions of dollars, but they're treating them like kids on a school trip? If they're penny pinching on that, then I can't imagine that they treat employees with any real respect on other matters.
 
Katamarino said:
I looked at a few regionals recently, and one thing that most said was "Hotel rooms during training will be shared".

They want to employ professionals who've put 6 figures into their training, to be responsible for tens of lives and millions of dollars, but they're treating them like kids on a school trip? If they're penny pinching on that, then I can't imagine that they treat employees with any real respect on other matters.
Click to expand...
Delta just recently started paying for new hires’ hotels during training. Before, you’d have to shell out your own $ during sims for lodging. They would pay for the first week and half during indoc and then you were on your own. That was embarrassing. Which regionals were you looking at? AFAIK, I thought only SkyWest did the college roommate thing.
 
Piperonca said:
Good catch. Men's Health magazine obviously has no veterans on staff. The military is its own category without a doubt. But in reality it's not a job, either.
Click to expand...

On a serious note, I’ve seen the flip side what a “dear John letter” does to a guy who is down range. It’s a sad situation.
 
Velocity173 said:
On a serious note, I’ve seen the flip side what a “dear John letter” does to a guy who is down range. It’s a sad situation.
Click to expand...
My heart goes out to any soldier that's deployed, much less those that have sudden and negative family situations. My helicopter unit had a very tough major in charge. I was his XO for the first part of my tour. One afternoon, a message came in and the old man said go get master sergeant smith (who happened to be in charge of our entire maintenance shop). So I did, and then he said, leave the room and close the door. After a minute the sergeant burst open the door, ran outside and puked. I went back in, the old man said put sgt smith on emergency orders NOW and so shortly sgt was packing his stuff in a jeep to go to the the airfield and I was doing paperwork for him to carry. The man's very young daughter had gotten into a bad situation and was pregnant. Needed her father who was on the other side of the world.

People don't realize what being in the military in a hostile zone means until they do it. I'm glad to have served and survived, and got the GI Bill to begin a career, but always have in my mind some of my buddies who didn't make it back, or did and never walked right again. Those who put their time in, got out, and went on to flying jobs deserve them. It can be a tough way to build hours.
 
midwestpa24 said:
In a normal world you are right. In this post COVID world, there is a massive labor shortage impacting every industry. While your basic economics still apply, there is a competing force out there offering competing incentives to employers, which is rapidly driving wages and inflation.
Click to expand...

Which reinforces my point. The world can create more pilots - but if pilot wages are not high enough to compete with other industries, those pilots won't become airline pilots.
 
Is a large part of the problem not that flying airliners is incredibly boring?!

When I fly, its low and slow, so the view is great. If something is interesting I can circle it for a better look. I get to go where I want, when I want, and that all makes it fun.
Being miles and miles above the ground, often above the clouds, with a tube full of people, going where they want, sounds boring.

I would much rather drive a truck, or even a bus, because at least then I can see stuff.

Is that not a large factor?

I've asked about 2 dozen pilots from the Yukon, and 0 want to fly an airliner, citing those reasons.
 
Jon Howard said:
Which reinforces my point. The world can create more pilots - but if pilot wages are not high enough to compete with other industries, those pilots won't become airline pilots.
Click to expand...
Probably more applicable is that they don’t pay enough to buy out people’s value systems. “Everything has a price”, but there are some things no company is willing to pay enough for.
 
It’s also not like someone can quit their job as a truck driver and Start working for the airlines. Yeah there is a lot of demand right now but same with a lot of careers and airlines are notoriously volatile. Why put in all the time and money and years of working my way up when that job might not be there then.
 
Jon Howard said:
Which reinforces my point. The world can create more pilots - but if pilot wages are not high enough to compete with other industries, those pilots won't become airline pilots.
Click to expand...

I mistyped should have read "incentives to employees", and I didn't mean a competing business. There is a reason there is massive employment shortage in this country, and it isn't other businesses. Many have left the workforce, apparently permanently. Anyone care to guess their support system?
 
Whitney said:
Is a large part of the problem not that flying airliners is incredibly boring?!

When I fly, its low and slow, so the view is great. If something is interesting I can circle it for a better look. I get to go where I want, when I want, and that all makes it fun.
Being miles and miles above the ground, often above the clouds, with a tube full of people, going where they want, sounds boring.

I would much rather drive a truck, or even a bus, because at least then I can see stuff.

Is that not a large factor?

I've asked about 2 dozen pilots from the Yukon, and 0 want to fly an airliner, citing those reasons.
Click to expand...
Given the choice of that versus sitting in a cube all day long, I’d have to think about it carefully.
 
I remember many years ago riding in a 727 from DFW to DCA. About 50 miles out the clouds outside the window turned dark green, not an auspicious sign. The plane was shaking like a wet dog, and the wing tips were flexing about 20 feet up and down. There was a bunch of noise but I never found out if it was hail or not. The pilots were so busy fighting the thing they didn't even make an announcement. Everybody was hanging on for dear life and some old ladies were crying. Probably some men, too. I was thinking this is just ducky, as bags were coming loose. After about five eventful minutes of that the flight turned relatively smooth again but the flight crew never said a word, like they were in some kind of shock. We landed and then a grateful bunch of passengers deplaned, but none of them were talking much either. I think it was American but not sure, and it probably doesn't matter.

To do that kind of flight on a frequent basis would not be my idea of boring. Makes the cube look pretty good, too.
 
I was in the right place and time to apply to the airlines in the 80s. I passed. Not the right fit FOR ME.

I got to jumpseat in a DC-10 on a flight from SLC to SFO and SFO out about an hour on the way to HNL. It was interesting. But between that ride, and listening to the radio back when United put it on Channel 9 of the entertainment system, I determined that an airline cockpit was not a fit for me.

But realize, out of my flying time, I have less than 1 hour flying on autopilot (and yes, I have a good bit of hours in planes with an autopilot). And this includes hard IFR, single pilot.
 
Piperonca said:
The top pay for a Delta Airlines Captain is approximately $205,000, but those flying a Boeing 777 can potentially earn $298,500 per year plus bonuses, or as much as $350,000 in one year, according to this: https://iflycoast.com/airline-pilots-earn-7-million-over-their-careers/

Another, sketchier source I can't find now said 487K in at least one instance. Who knows, but that sounds like a fine job if you can get it.
Click to expand...

Those numbers are less than half the actual top pay at Delta. They are more in line with first officer pay. People tend to take the actual hourly rate and multiply by 1000. In reality a lot of flying due to reroute rules and overtime pay is double pay. Triple pay is possible when trips are purchased for training ect..
 
Last edited:
Pinecone said:
I was in the right place and time to apply to the airlines in the 80s. I passed. Not the right fit FOR ME.

I got to jumpseat in a DC-10 on a flight from SLC to SFO and SFO out about an hour on the way to HNL. It was interesting. But between that ride, and listening to the radio back when United put it on Channel 9 of the entertainment system, I determined that an airline cockpit was not a fit for me.

But realize, out of my flying time, I have less than 1 hour flying on autopilot (and yes, I have a good bit of hours in planes with an autopilot). And this includes hard IFR, single pilot.
Click to expand...
One of the great opportunities of this career is the myriad of options. I also flew IFR single pilot without aa autopilot in a Cessna 210 hauling checks back in the 80s. My flying skills were off the chart. I could make that plane do anything. When I was getting checked out as a 727 SO my instructor told me you’ll never be at that level of pure flying ability again. On the other hand the skill required to master a V1 cut in an MD11 or a 767 is also challenging. Managing a large aircraft and a crew is a different skill set. Snow, ice, rain, 60+ knots of wind, 300 rvr landings, 8500’ elevation TOs in BOG among many other experiences were pretty cool in hindsight. The views of the Amazon, Eiffel Tower, Pyramids in Egypt, etc from the cockpit are awesome. Plus sitting on a beach in Hawaii or Australia is not to shabby! Fly Safely!
 
Pinecone said:
I was in the right place and time to apply to the airlines in the 80s. I passed. Not the right fit FOR ME.

I got to jumpseat in a DC-10 on a flight from SLC to SFO and SFO out about an hour on the way to HNL. It was interesting. But between that ride, and listening to the radio back when United put it on Channel 9 of the entertainment system, I determined that an airline cockpit was not a fit for me.

But realize, out of my flying time, I have less than 1 hour flying on autopilot (and yes, I have a good bit of hours in planes with an autopilot). And this includes hard IFR, single pilot.
Click to expand...

WestCoast to HNL is probably the single most boring airline flying anywhere. Try 4 legs a day in a 717 or 737 dodging thunderstorms all day in the SE. Boring it isn’t!
 
Velocity173 said:
If you’re making good money, then you’re putting up with sacrifices.
Click to expand...

TCABM said:
That pretty much describes every job out there.
Click to expand...
And one reason people pick the career they do is because they’re willing to accept the sacrifices of that particular career rather than the sacrifices of another. The sacrifices involved in an aviation career seem to be less tolerable to the average person now than they were 40 years ago.
 
If someone is going to cheat on their spouse, they are going to do it whether they are a ditch digger or a 747 captain. It might be easier for a 747 captain, but that doesn't change the mindset of the ditch digger.
 
Groundpounder said:
If someone is going to cheat on their spouse, they are going to do it whether they are a ditch digger or a 747 captain. It might be easier for a 747 captain, but that doesn't change the mindset of the ditch digger.
Click to expand...
[guy sitting in bar] I dig ditches for a living.
[hot female] Ooh, that’s so sexy!
 
Jon Howard said:
Which reinforces my point. The world can create more pilots - but if pilot wages are not high enough to compete with other industries, those pilots won't become airline pilots.
Click to expand...
It isn’t just $, it’s the whole package: pay, cost of entry in time and money, time away from home, requirements for ongoing training, working for a big corporation that everyone hates. . . . .Millennials want to work in a National Park but will settle for a cube. Gen Z just want to stay home. You can’t buy a lot of them with cash alone.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
requirements for ongoing training
Click to expand...
That’s an interesting point…how many industries have training/checking twice a year that can end a job (or at least is perceived that way.)

I hear “I’m not a good test taker” quite often…seems like a bad industry to be in if you don’t do well with tests.
 
MauleSkinner said:
[guy sitting in bar] I dig ditches for a living.
[hot female] Ooh, that’s so sexy!
Click to expand...


Actually this woman, and most women I know, would much rather date the equipment operator, than the airline guy.

To prove my theory, I asked 14 women if they were single, would they prefer to date a ditch digger, or airline pilot.
They unanimously chose the ditch digger.
 
Whitney said:
Actually this woman, and most women I know, would much rather date the equipment operator, than the airline guy.

To prove my theory, I asked 14 women if they were single, would they prefer to date a ditch digger, or airline pilot.
They unanimously chose the ditch digger.
Click to expand...
And now for the follow up question. Which would they marry? Hmm. What's the pay difference between diggin and flyin nowadays anyway?
 
Whitney said:
Actually this woman, and most women I know, would much rather date the equipment operator, than the airline guy.

To prove my theory, I asked 14 women if they were single, would they prefer to date a ditch digger, or airline pilot.
They unanimously chose the ditch digger.
Click to expand...
Hey. I just noticed something. You said 'if they were single.' That means they aren't single. Now ask 14 single women the same question.
 
luvflyin said:
Hey. I just noticed something. You said 'if they were single.' That means they aren't single. Now ask 14 single women the same question.
Click to expand...

Some are single, some dating, a few married.
They would MUCH RATHER MARRY a ditch digger, and its not even close with their choices. In fact several said if an airline pilot asked them out, it would be a fast and firm HELL NO!

By the way construction workers, equipment operators, etc make good money.
 
Whitney said:
Some are single, some dating, a few married.
They would MUCH RATHER MARRY a ditch digger, and its not even close with their choices. In fact several said if an airline pilot asked them out, it would be a fast and firm HELL NO!

By the way construction workers, equipment operators, etc make good money.
Click to expand...
So what's the qualifier? Work schedules? Studliness?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top