How to Sail (Older boats)

[overdrive148]

I figure there's enough boaty people on here to help me out with this.

Yhis new game is coming out called Sea of Thieves (crew based pirate game) for PC and XBone. I picked it up and I've been playing around in the closed beta.

This is the Galleon:

You get a crew of 4. One guy steers the ship. The rest fire/load cannons, repair holes and ship damage, bucket out water, spot ships, get drunk, play music, and adjust the sails manually. Each mast has two controls, raise/lower sails and adjust sailing angle. You can see wind direction and velocity by looking above you.

What I want to know is how the heck you're supposed to use the sails effectively. I get the concept of put the sails with the wind and the ship goes. I know how an aircraft flies but sailboats being able to go upwind is absolute magic to me.

Is the best way to travel with all 3 sails aligned with the wind (with this ship/sail configuration)?
Is there a better sail configuration than that for combat and maneuverability across the wind?
Does pulling sails up enhance rudder and turning effectiveness?
Can you turn a ship with no forward momentum by rudder alone?
Is there a way to get my crewmates off of the !&#$%# cannons to work the sails?

This is the Sloop (2 man crew). 1 cannon per side, a little slower in a straight line than the Galleon (I am assuming because less sail area), and more maneuverable. And only 1 sail. We were outrun by one of these after they stole our booty. Literally climbed the side of the boat and stole it before we could stop them. I could hear them laughing about it. I wanted to blow them out of the water but we couldn't catch up and broadside them because the sails were all different directions and the captain was swinging left and right so the wind was never in the same spot.

 

[Briar Rabbit]

Having the wind behind the sails is inefficient. You want the wind to blow around the front of the sail thereby pulling the sail just as wind over the wing creates lift. When you go upwind you do not sail directly into the wind but angle back and forth at crab angles to the wind, In real life you watch the downwind edge of the sail and keep it taught. If the downwind edge starts to flutter the angle of attack is too great and you are stalling the sail.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

No speed, no control with rudder. You can play with fore and aft sails but you need to get rolling to really control it.

Fastest is wind directly from one side (on the beam) - sails at an angle with the upwind side forward - experiment.
Directly downwind is slow.
Wild ass guess is you can get up to about 50 to 60 degrees from where the wind is coming from with the sails trimmed probably as far as you can fore/aft.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Oh - tacking a square rig (swing the bow through the wind) should be entertaining. Without a lot of speed I suspect you will get stuck pointing into the wind.
Jibing (swing the stern across the wind) may work better even if it involves turning the long way around.

 

[Everskyward]

Curious how you tack (or jibe) with so many large sails and a crew of only 4.

 

[Zeldman]

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Setting sails: Look at the boat from above. Look at the direction the wind blows, and envision that as an arrow. The sails act like mirrors and bounce the "wind arrow" at an angle the same as it hit the sail (think like light rays). Set the sails so the arrow gets bounced towards the back (stern) of the ship.

This isn't how sails really work, but should help you trim them.

When going straight downwind, the wind is right behind you. Set the sails to bounce the wind back, and you'll find they are at right angles to the ship. Sail upwind, the wind will be 45 to 60 degrees off the front (bow). Set the sails to bounce the wind to the stern and you'll find the sails are set very close to fore-and-aft. One can't sail closer than 45° to the wind since most sails can't pickup and direct the wind properly. Some ships couldn't sail closer than 30 degrees due to limits on setting the sails and other reasons.

In real life, the way sails on multiple masts are set vary on the same ship. They are trimmed more aft on the aft masts, and have a bit of a twist from low to high due to relative wind differences as one gets higher, but I doubt the game has such physics built into it.

Like a plane, you need flow over the rudder to make it effective. Sails are your "engine", you need them to maneuver.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh - tacking a square rig (swing the bow through the wind) should be entertaining. Without a lot of speed I suspect you will get stuck pointing into the wind.
Jibing (swing the stern across the wind) may work better even if it involves turning the long way around.

You are right, but they had tricks to swing the bow around during tacking, such as backing the sails on the fore-mast and the jibs/foresails to create some force to help swing the bow around. They tended to jibe in heavy weather. Modern fore/aft rigs tend to tack around in heavy weather if they need to change direction running down wind.

Paging @wanttaja ... he knows a lot about this as well.

 

[overdrive148]

Storm started halfway through the example but this is how the sails are controlled. You interact with the pulleys to adjust the angle, the cleats are for sails up/down. And from what the thread's said so far, maybe there's a simplified mechanic for sailing vs the usual. The wind hitting the sails exactly perpendicular billows the sails out fully with a sound which might be a way to tell players where to turn it to.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Yeah, the placement of the "halyards" which raise & lower the sails as well as the "braces" (square sails) or "sheets" (fore & aft sails), which adjust the sail angle, suggests that some liberties were taken, probably to allow the game to be more easily played. I think you are correct, the "billowing" is probably the clue that your sails are trimmed within the game context.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Modern fore/aft rigs tend to tack around in heavy weather if they need to change direction running down wind.

Done that more than once when sailing single handed. I didn't put up a spinnaker without at least one crew and reasonable weather...

Curious how you tack (or jibe) with so many large sails and a crew of only 4.

Carefully.

A jibe should be reasonably easy - the sails are all connected up and down the mast and you could jibe each set one at a time as the boat swings around - if you are early or late it shouldn't be that big a deal and fine tune when you are done (sez the guy who ain't never sailed a square rigger). But that's something like what I used to do for jibing with a spinnaker set when double handed - steer downwind, have the crew jibe the pole on the 'chute while I held the sheet and guy (tiller between my knees), then the crew would come back and jibe the main (don't forget to duck!) and then trim the new sheet on the 'chute.

For a tack, I suspect it would depend on where you are - open sea where you tack once or twice a day, go the long way around. Trying to get in to a harbor, you would only have the minimum number of sails up and you would wait for a favorable tide and/or wind. Trying to sail upwind into a current even in a relatively modern boat can be an exercise in frustration (and not net forward progress) with a light wind.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I have no experience with square riggers, but I suspect that they don't do upwind tacks very well. If at all, but I guess they must or they would never get anywhere. But with any sailboat, jibing is a light wind exercise for most boats.

I've sailed lots of boats. When I was in high school we owned a Hobie 16. In light winds, the only way you could tack the thing was to back wind the jib. They don't turn on a dime. Sometimes it was preferable to jibe.

 

[GRG55]

A square rigger's sails are more like a parachute than an airfoil. But we know from the Battle of Trafalgar that square riggers had some ability to sail into wind. Shortly before the engagement with Lord Nelson, Villenueve, who had been running with the wind headed towards Gibraltar, turned the fleet around to return to Cadiz, as the British bore down on them with the northwesterly at their back.

I think the main risk of coming about in a square rigger was ending up "in irons", stalled head to wind and unable to get the ship underway again.

 

[asicer]

I would think that a lateen rig on the mizzen mast would help with tacking upwind, but it would appear that @overdrive148 's ship doesn't have one.

 

[Shawn]

You need more rum...

 

[overdrive148]

Thanks for the information, it really is fascinating stuff to me. There are roaming TSRA++ around the map and we had the misfortune of sailing into one. The boat nearly flooded but I took the opportunity to test the sail angles with the high winds and it appears the game mechanics are indeed set for a simpler more intuitive method of "wind -> sail = good" instead of the more challenging and realistic way of doing it.

 

[FormerHangie]

I have no experience with square riggers, but I suspect that they don't do upwind tacks very well. If at all, but I guess they must or they would never get anywhere. But with any sailboat, jibing is a light wind exercise for most boats.

I've sailed lots of boats. When I was in high school we owned a Hobie 16. In light winds, the only way you could tack the thing was to back wind the jib. They don't turn on a dime. Sometimes it was preferable to jibe.

That sounds about right. I cant' think you could point all that high with a square rigger, maybe get a little closer to the wind than a beam reach.

I'm guessing no one here has any experience sailing a square rigger.

 

[overdrive148]

I'm guessing no one here has any experience sailing a square rigger.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I'm guessing no one here has any experience sailing a square rigger.

Where is Henning when you need him?

 

[flyingron]

Iron ships and wooden men (or was it the other way around).

 

[bflynn]

I've done a lot of sailing, but never a square rigger. It's on the bucket list.

I do know a fair number of people who have sailed on square rigged ships. It is true they do not sail well to windward, they might be able to get 50 degrees off the wind and something really piggish like a galleon probably won't do that.

The sails are still an airfoil, but not a very good one. The hull has a keel, but not a very good one. So making way to windward is very sluggish. You basically do the best you can when you have to, but otherwise try to plan navigation to coincide with the wind blowing you the way you want to go anyway.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Those old square rigs had a difficult time sailing into the wind whatsoever. It was the discovery of tradewinds that blow EAST to WEST in the 20 degree latitude that enabled Columbus to sail to the Americas. Then they went north and caught the normal tradewinds back to Europe.

Making headway into the wind, and sailing faster than the wind, is due to a sailboat having a keel. Without a keel, it never could do it. Unlike an airplane a sailboat is "attached" to the earth through its keel and has an additional wind vector airplanes dont have. Big difference. Iceboats that have a lot less friction than sailboats can really go fast, much faster than the wind.

 

[Everskyward]

Those old square rigs had a difficult time sailing into the wind whatsoever. It was the discovery of tradewinds that blow EAST to WEST in the 20 degree latitude that enabled Columbus to sail to the Americas. Then they went north and caught the normal tradewinds back to Europe.

Making headway into the wind, and sailing faster than the wind, is due to a sailboat having a keel. Without a keel, it never could do it. Unlike an airplane a sailboat is "attached" to the earth through its keel and has an additional wind vector airplanes dont have. Big difference. Iceboats that have a lot less friction than sailboats can really go fast, much faster than the wind.

People keep telling me "the sails act like an airplane wing". Maybe so, in a way, but there are more forces acting on a sailboat than on an on an airplane that make it less understandable to me.

 

[Sac Arrow]

People keep telling me "the sails act like an airplane wing". Maybe so, in a way, but there are more forces acting on a sailboat than on an on an airplane that make it less understandable to me.

Those old square rigs had a difficult time sailing into the wind whatsoever. It was the discovery of tradewinds that blow EAST to WEST in the 20 degree latitude that enabled Columbus to sail to the Americas. Then they went north and caught the normal tradewinds back to Europe.

Making headway into the wind, and sailing faster than the wind, is due to a sailboat having a keel. Without a keel, it never could do it. Unlike an airplane a sailboat is "attached" to the earth through its keel and has an additional wind vector airplanes dont have. Big difference. Iceboats that have a lot less friction than sailboats can really go fast, much faster than the wind.

The way it was described to me is that the sail is like a pea being squeezed through a pod, allowing the possibility of sailing faster than the wind itself on other than a direct downwind tack.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Those old square rigs had a difficult time sailing into the wind whatsoever. It was the discovery of tradewinds that blow EAST to WEST in the 20 degree latitude that enabled Columbus to sail to the Americas. Then they went north and caught the normal tradewinds back to Europe.

Making headway into the wind, and sailing faster than the wind, is due to a sailboat having a keel. Without a keel, it never could do it. Unlike an airplane a sailboat is "attached" to the earth through its keel and has an additional wind vector airplanes dont have. Big difference. Iceboats that have a lot less friction than sailboats can really go fast, much faster than the wind.

Done that more than once when sailing single handed. I didn't put up a spinnaker without at least one crew and reasonable weather...


Carefully.

A jibe should be reasonably easy - the sails are all connected up and down the mast and you could jibe each set one at a time as the boat swings around - if you are early or late it shouldn't be that big a deal and fine tune when you are done (sez the guy who ain't never sailed a square rigger). But that's something like what I used to do for jibing with a spinnaker set when double handed - steer downwind, have the crew jibe the pole on the 'chute while I held the sheet and guy (tiller between my knees), then the crew would come back and jibe the main (don't forget to duck!) and then trim the new sheet on the 'chute.

For a tack, I suspect it would depend on where you are - open sea where you tack once or twice a day, go the long way around. Trying to get in to a harbor, you would only have the minimum number of sails up and you would wait for a favorable tide and/or wind. Trying to sail upwind into a current even in a relatively modern boat can be an exercise in frustration (and not net forward progress) with a light wind.

In general, yes, this is correct. Trying to sail downwind against the current can be an exercise in frustration too. The Race, between Plum Island and Fisher Island on the east end of Long Island sound, has currents exceeding 7 knots as the tide changes.

That sounds about right. I cant' think you could point all that high with a square rigger, maybe get a little closer to the wind than a beam reach.

I'm guessing no one here has any experience sailing a square rigger.

See below...although the they could do a bit better, about 60 degrees off the wind. Still not great.

Where is Henning when you need him?

If you want a bunch of BS, yeah, ask him.

I've done a lot of sailing, but never a square rigger. It's on the bucket list.

I do know a fair number of people who have sailed on square rigged ships. It is true they do not sail well to windward, they might be able to get 50 degrees off the wind and something really piggish like a galleon probably won't do that.

The sails are still an airfoil, but not a very good one. The hull has a keel, but not a very good one. So making way to windward is very sluggish. You basically do the best you can when you have to, but otherwise try to plan navigation to coincide with the wind blowing you the way you want to go anyway.

Which square rigged ships are we discussing?
Early ones did very poorly to windward with more than one sail. That's one reason they added stay sails between mansts and a lateen (later, gaff) mizzen on the aft mast. The wind is directed to the mizzen sail, set mostly fore-and-aft. Early ship designs (galleons, carracks) also had a lot of hull exposed to the wind (forecastle and aftcastle) and those made sailing to windward a lot harder. Essentially drag that slowed the ship and also pushed it to leeward.
A lugger, technically a square rigger, actually sailed fairly well to windward. Brigantines pointed somewhere between schooners and brigs due to being square rigged on the foremast, the aft mast was fore-aft rigged.

Yeah, square riggers don't sail to windward nearly as well as a fore & aft rigged vessel, but they weren't completely helpless, especially the later designs from the late 1700's on. I'll also grant that in heavy wind and sea, they did extremely poorly, enough that the lee shore was a real danger. but it was also a danger to the fore and aft rigged vessels too, just somewhat less of a danger for them.

 

[wanttaja]

Dredging up some old, OLD work I did about 25 years ago....

The dark arrow shows the direction of the wind. Note the settings of the sails.

https://www.amazon.com/Price-Comman...=UTF8&qid=1517245905&sr=8-3&keywords=wanttaja

Ron "Yon's my privateer, see how trim she lies..." Wanttaja

 

[Everskyward]

The way it was described to me is that the sail is like a pea being squeezed through a pod, allowing the possibility of sailing faster than the wind itself on other than a direct downwind tack.

Squeezed between what? The lift on the sails and the water on the keel?

 

[FormerHangie]

Of course, all of this discussion is predicated on the idea that the game developers tried to make their virtual ships work like actual square riggers. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Squeezed between what? The lift on the sails and the water on the keel?

Sails generate lift and drag perpendicular and tangential to the sail just like an airplane wing. In general, the lift has at least some forward component (relative to the hull) to move the boat forward, and some some sideways component to make life difficult - particularly when you are the cook.

The keel of the hull also works airfoilish - the boat moves forward and somewhat sideways (leeway) so that the lift from the keel (pointed perpendicular to the hull) keeps you from going totally sideways.

 

[overdrive148]

Of course, all of this discussion is predicated on the idea that the game developers tried to make their virtual ships work like actual square riggers. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

Yeah, seeming the game devs went with a more intuitive but still engaging mechanic for players to enjoy. It is still fun to me regardless, but I am equally fascinated by the discussion of the real world application.

Managed to pull alongside another galleon and even trade blows. I was at the helm and I am amazed at how hard it is to communicate sail adjustment to the crew and maneuver the ship to minimize exposure to incoming fire.

Even something as basic as slowing/stopping/turning gets pretty complicated without your crew firing/reloading/repairing damage.

No idea why but I am amazed that kind of teamwork existed in the olden days with no electricity or other niceties. Like modern day CRM.

 

[overdrive148]

No speed, no control with rudder. You can play with fore and aft sails but you need to get rolling to really control.

I knew that deep down but as it turns out, sails up and anchor up and no velocity allows you to turn slowly by just turning the wheel. That is a dead giveaway that they took some liberties.

 

[cgrab]

I have a limited knowledge of sailing gained while on the Naval Academy sailing team and racing in the 1976 Tall Ships race from Bermuda to Newport. I'm concerned that the game designer expects ships to sail into the wind with downwind sails. If you look at real tall ships you will see that in addition to square rig sails, they also have fore and aft sails much like the head-sail in Wanttaja's drawing. Each mast will have canvas to allow the ship to beat into the wind. With a square sail you may only be able to get 10-15 degrees above a reach.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Blow into the back of your sails

 

[bflynn]

Of course, all of this discussion is predicated on the idea that the game developers tried to make their virtual ships work like actual square riggers. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

The four ships that I've had discussions with former crew members about:
USCGC Eagle, a barque
USS Constitution - I'm not sure it qualifies as a barque, it really only has a spanker/topsail. I'd call it full rigged.
The Picton Castle - also a barque and a ship you can pay to be crew on...35k for an 18 month round the world trip.
I also know someone who sailed on Pride of Baltimore II, a schooner.

Yes, as was pointed out, it depends on the exact type of square rigged ship and I was thinking of earlier ships than these. There is a reason they started going away from full square rigged ships, sailing to windward was one of them. There is a reason they were always so impatient to get somewhere. If you missed the tide and the winds changed on you, you very well could be stuck in port until the wind changed again.

Like I said, the galleon is going to be a pig. A schooner will be downright sprightly. But I wouldn't take the schooner against the galleon as a single broadside will probably be the end of schooner. And unless they have some pretty strong guns, the schooner is unlikely to be able to do anything to the galleon.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Yeah, seeming the game devs went with a more intuitive but still engaging mechanic for players to enjoy. It is still fun to me regardless, but I am equally fascinated by the discussion of the real world application.

Managed to pull alongside another galleon and even trade blows. I was at the helm and I am amazed at how hard it is to communicate sail adjustment to the crew and maneuver the ship to minimize exposure to incoming fire.

Even something as basic as slowing/stopping/turning gets pretty complicated without your crew firing/reloading/repairing damage.

No idea why but I am amazed that kind of teamwork existed in the olden days with no electricity or other niceties. Like modern day CRM.

Try turning your ship so your guns on the side of your ship point at the bow or stern of the other ship. ALL your guns on one side can point at the other ship while only a few of theirs (if any, if they have any guns mounted on the bow or stern) can return fire. That is called "raking" fire. Ideally, your the two ships make a shape looking something like the letter "T", with your ship being the cross-bar at the top of the tee. If you damage enough rigging, you can just sit there firing at them until they pull down their colors.

Yes, lots of teamwork there. Good sailors were in high demand for the Royal Navy.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Squeezed between what? The lift on the sails and the water on the keel?

Yes, that is one description.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I have a limited knowledge of sailing gained while on the Naval Academy sailing team and racing in the 1976 Tall Ships race from Bermuda to Newport. I'm concerned that the game designer expects ships to sail into the wind with downwind sails. If you look at real tall ships you will see that in addition to square rig sails, they also have fore and aft sails much like the head-sail in Wanttaja's drawing. Each mast will have canvas to allow the ship to beat into the wind. With a square sail you may only be able to get 10-15 degrees above a reach.

Meh, it's just a game. They simplified it, perhaps overly so.

 

[overdrive148]

Try turning your ship so your guns on the side of your ship point at the bow or stern of the other ship. ALL your guns on one side can point at the other ship while only a few of theirs (if any, if they have any guns mounted on the bow or stern) can return fire. That is called "raking" fire. Ideally, your the two ships make a shape looking something like the letter "T", with your ship being the cross-bar at the top of the tee. If you damage enough rigging, you can just sit there firing at them until they pull down their colors.

Yes, lots of teamwork there. Good sailors were in high demand for the Royal Navy.

I have played a few games similar to this (airships and other naval based games) but the wind and mechanics have not been this complex. It's like driving a car but your two passengers have the brake and gas separately.

I tried a maneuver like that at one point because their cannons were shredding usand they pulled range on us.

The only problem is then I am aligned with the wind differently (possibly creating an opportunity for them), and then traveling at an angle to them so couldn't they outrun me in a straight line in theory? Assuming same ship, same wind, no sail damage modeled in the game. Hmm...

Also no fore/aft guns on these. In another one I play there are smaller anti-sail cannons (chained together) on the bow which makes it pretty easy to catch someone. But even then one click gives me sail settings for fast medium slow stop while at the helm. Nowhere near the skill required to actually play effectively.

Also a quick rundown on sail control shown at 7:50:

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'll look at the video later....

But yes, the opponent will try to get away, or turn away so you can't rake him/her. If you are to windward to them, you can force action, they can only go to leeward. If you rake them, you might do enough damage that they can't get away quickly. Depending on how you (and they) are aligned with the wind, they may or may not have an advantage.

 

[wanttaja]

USS Constitution - I'm not sure it qualifies as a barque, it really only has a spanker/topsail. I'd call it full rigged.

Not a barque, it's square-rigged on the mizzen. Few ships ever set a sail on the crossjack, but you needed the mizzen course yard to set the mizzen topsail....the topsail sheets were reeved through the yard for the course.

Ron Wanttaja