How to perfect rudder work in the last 10 feet?

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JulietSierraBravo79

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JulietSierraBravo79
Hey,

My CFI tells me I am right on the cusp of solo. He says my pattern work is flawless, radio work is well above what would be expected at this experience level and that in general my final approach is spot on until we start to flare. He tells me while flaring, I often become fixated on rounding out and stop working the pedals so that we are not always bang on the centerline as we touch down. Certainly I recognize this sometimes, but other times, we look lined up and I'm not seeing the issue in my sight picture. To make matters more confusing, from time to time we land perfectly, smooth flare, lined up on centerline, stall horn just starting to chirp as we touch down and the sight picture looks good to me and little to no rudder input is needed. In these cases he will tell me the landing was very nice, but chide me for not working the rudders more. I suppose to some degree I feel like the rudder work is being so overemphasized that sometimes it distracts me from smoothly rounding out. Do I really need to be "dancing" on the pedals on EVERY short final? Any tips on how to mentally sort this and get my sight picture down so I can grease enough on in a row that he let's me solo already? Thanks!
 
I see lots of newer-ish pilots just forget about the rudder during the short final and flare.. the issue becomes pronounced in any kind of crosswind, even a slight one, as the plane starts to weather vane into the wind and we start drifting off centerline

What helped me was visualizing the rudder as a control surface and using that to keep the aircraft point straight down the runway, if a crosswind pushes you off centerline then I slip into the wind.. or if you are crabbing come in a little more into the wind so when you come out of the crab you're still on centerline

Practice will make perfect though.. if you're not even solo yet there's still a lot ahead of you to learn.. which is a good thing!

Good luck!!
 
This may be absolutely terrible advice because I’ve never flown with you and don’t know what’s actually happening, but one thing I’ve learned is that sometimes an instructor is wrong or is just trying to get you to see subtleties you just aren’t going to see at your stage. I have to consciously ignore comments sometimes with an instructor and just relax and fly and hope I either figure out what I’m missing or give them a better feeling that I’m on top of things.
 
Tantalum said:
I see lots of newer-ish pilots just forget about the rudder during the short final and flare..
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Curious, how have you witnessed this so much? I assume it must be a common issue among primary students?
 
Tantalum said:
I see lots of newer-ish pilots just forget about the rudder during the short final and flare.. the issue becomes pronounced in any kind of crosswind, even a slight one, as the plane starts to weather vane into the wind and we start drifting off centerline

What helped me was visualizing the rudder as a control surface and using that to keep the aircraft point straight down the runway, if a crosswind pushes you off centerline then I slip into the wind.. or if you are crabbing come in a little more into the wind so when you come out of the crab you're still on centerline

Practice will make perfect though.. if you're not even solo yet there's still a lot ahead of you to learn.. which is a good thing!

Good luck!!
Click to expand...

That's the thing, my CFI says I am GOOD with the pedals when we are dealing with a crosswind. We have gone up a few times with very heavy winds just to get an idea of what it's like and what my personal limits should be. I am talking days when it was like 16-18 gusting 24-26. The aforementioned gripe he has with my lack of "dancing" on the pedals is when we're on short final/flaring on calm days. He says the ailerons are good and we're lined up properly over the runway, he just wants "more" movement on the pedals. I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly he means, because as noted we look lined up to me in my sight picture. Really i'm wondering if it is ALWAYS necessary to be hard on the pedals in the last 10 feet, or if sometimes in calm conditions, if you're lined up, you're lined up and limited rudder input is needed to stay on centerline. Thx.
 
Ryanb said:
Curious, how have you witnessed this so much? I assume it must be a common issue among primary students?
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Yes, it is common. Or, concentrate on pointing the nose with rudder and forget yoke. It is a learning curve. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Yup, more practice required I suppose! Hopefully the weather holds for tomorrow!
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
That's the thing, my CFI says I am GOOD with the pedals when we are dealing with a crosswind. We have gone up a few times with very heavy winds just to get an idea of what it's like and what my personal limits should be. I am talking days when it was like 16-18 gusting 24-26. The aforementioned gripe he has with my lack of "dancing" on the pedals is when we're on short final/flaring on calm days. He says the ailerons are good and we're lined up properly over the runway, he just wants "more" movement on the pedals. I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly he means, because as noted we look lined up to me in my sight picture. Really i'm wondering if it is ALWAYS necessary to be hard on the pedals in the last 10 feet, or if sometimes in calm conditions, if you're lined up, you're lined up and limited rudder input is needed to stay on centerline. Thx.
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The only reason he would say this is that you are not staying aligned (airplane longitudinal axis parallel with the centerline, ie the plane is turned, which will cause big problems if not fixed) with the runway, focus on keeping the airplane aligned with the runway, especially in the flare, don't focus on dancing on the rudders, "dancing on the rudders" will be the end result if needed. Sounds like you are very close, keep it aligned and you will solo.
 
Don't try to "flare". Once the plane is a couple feet off the runway, just try very hard NOT to let it land. Don't over-react and yank the nose up, don't try to maintain altitude (and stall and drop it in) -- just ease back to try to keep the wheels off. You've got power all the way off, you're slow, you'll fail... but you'll do so gracefully, with the nose up and the stall horn wailing.

My landings stopped sucking (all the time anyway) when I stopped fixating on instructor-induced "flare, put it on the numbers" and did that. You get to stay concentrated on flying, not landing.
 
Ryanb said:
Curious, how have you witnessed this so much? I assume it must be a common issue among primary students?
Click to expand...
I go up pretty often as a safety for people who roll right into instrument after getting their private

I don't go as often anymore, but I networked pretty well a year or two ago and there was a time where I was in the air every couple days.. I find even just sitting on the right seat you can learn a lot
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Really i'm wondering if it is ALWAYS necessary to be hard on the pedals in the last 10 feet, or if sometimes in calm conditions, if you're lined up, you're lined up and limited rudder input is needed to stay on centerline
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You will eventually see what the right amount is, it just takes practice. Even in calm conditions you will need some inputs, the plane is a fluid thing
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Hey,

My CFI tells me I am right on the cusp of solo. He says my pattern work is flawless, radio work is well above what would be expected at this experience level and that in general my final approach is spot on until we start to flare. He tells me while flaring, I often become fixated on rounding out and stop working the pedals so that we are not always bang on the centerline as we touch down. Certainly I recognize this sometimes, but other times, we look lined up and I'm not seeing the issue in my sight picture. To make matters more confusing, from time to time we land perfectly, smooth flare, lined up on centerline, stall horn just starting to chirp as we touch down and the sight picture looks good to me and little to no rudder input is needed. In these cases he will tell me the landing was very nice, but chide me for not working the rudders more. I suppose to some degree I feel like the rudder work is being so overemphasized that sometimes it distracts me from smoothly rounding out. Do I really need to be "dancing" on the pedals on EVERY short final? Any tips on how to mentally sort this and get my sight picture down so I can grease enough on in a row that he let's me solo already? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Not being on the centerline is usually a function of aileron control. Even with a small cross wind, you have to land slightly banked into the wind to touch down. (Lift being used to counteract the effect of wind.). Rudder is used to align the aircraft longitudinally to prevent side loading. Both have to be used together. Most students have the correct control inputs and neutralize them just prior to touch down - thus the plane drifts from the centerline.
 
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PaulS said:
The only reason he would say this is that you are not staying aligned (airplane longitudinal axis parallel with the centerline, ie the plane is turned, which will cause big problems if not fixed) with the runway, focus on keeping the airplane aligned with the runway, especially in the flare, don't focus on dancing on the rudders, "dancing on the rudders" will be the end result if needed. Sounds like you are very close, keep it aligned and you will solo.
Click to expand...

Yup, I am trying to figure out what's wrong with my sight picture so I can "see" what I am doing wrong regarding the alignment and fix it, so I can move on. Close, but no cigar, yet.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
That's the thing, my CFI says I am GOOD with the pedals when we are dealing with a crosswind. We have gone up a few times with very heavy winds just to get an idea of what it's like and what my personal limits should be. I am talking days when it was like 16-18 gusting 24-26. The aforementioned gripe he has with my lack of "dancing" on the pedals is when we're on short final/flaring on calm days. He says the ailerons are good and we're lined up properly over the runway, he just wants "more" movement on the pedals. I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly he means, because as noted we look lined up to me in my sight picture. Really i'm wondering if it is ALWAYS necessary to be hard on the pedals in the last 10 feet, or if sometimes in calm conditions, if you're lined up, you're lined up and limited rudder input is needed to stay on centerline. Thx.
Click to expand...

Where's the ball in the turn coordinator when he says this? Maybe that's what he is observing - you appear to be lined up, but the ball is off center on the calm days.
 
Before getting into the plane turn it until it’s pointing at a very distant tree or something similar. Stand behind it to get it lined up perfect. Then get in and adjust your seat and get comfortable. Then see where that object is in the windshield. Mark it in your mind and use that as the point where the centerline should be when you are aligned. You may be surprised where that spot actually is.
 
Salty said:
Before getting into the plane turn it until it’s pointing at a very distant tree or something similar. Stand behind it to get it lined up perfect. Then get in and adjust your seat and get comfortable. Then see where that object is in the windshield. Mark it in your mind and use that as the point where the centerline should be when you are aligned. You may be surprised where that spot actually is.
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What I have been doing is looking at where the yellow lines are in relation to some bolts on the cowling while taxiing and trying to line the centerline up with the same on short final.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
What I have been doing is looking at where the yellow lines are in relation to some bolts on the cowling while taxiing and trying to line the centerline up with the same on short final.
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There you go...

Usually, the teaching principal has been to put the runway centerline on your shoulder as you’re coming down final. Watch the nose and make corrections as needed to keep the nose pointed straight.
 
When you touch down, is the plane leaving the centerline immediately? If so, you may not have been lined up and a bit crabbed.

Do you have a spot picked out on the glareshield or cowl that represents the centerline exactly? In other words, when the nosewheel and tailcone are lined up exactly on a taxiway or parking stripe, from the left seat the prop spinner will NOT be. Maybe you’re offset slightly.

Couple guesses, may or may not help.
 
Another common mistake is pointing the center of the nose/cowling at the far end of the runway. That is not lining up the airplane. Straight ahead is a reference slightly to the left of center of the cowling. Line up the cowling hinge (Piper) or oil cover or whatever is in front of you. If you line up the prop you are looking across the nose to the right and the airplane is in a slight crab.
 
A lot of the time, without a crosswind to make us work, we forget about the changing forces acting on the rudder when we raise the nose and then settle into ground-effect. The left-yawing tendency, with throttle at idle, I believe will be slightly more as you raise the nose of your airplane.
 
wilkersk said:
A lot of the time, without a crosswind to make us work, we forget about the changing forces acting on the rudder when we raise the nose and then settle into ground-effect. The left-yawing tendency, with throttle at idle, I believe will be slightly more as you raise the nose of your airplane.
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The left-yawing tendency is a result of assymetric thrust (P-factor) and the spiralling slipstream off the prop, neither of which are in play with the throttle at idle. Some airplanes have an offset fin to help counter the left yaw, and that fin will make the airplane yaw right a bit with the power off. If the OP has been using power on final he's maybe got a little right rudder in that he's not removing when he pulls the throttle to idle.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
The aforementioned gripe he has with my lack of "dancing" on the pedals is when we're on short final/flaring on calm days. He says the ailerons are good and we're lined up properly over the runway, he just wants "more" movement on the pedals. I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly he means, because as noted we look lined up to me in my sight picture. Really i'm wondering if it is ALWAYS necessary to be hard on the pedals in the last 10 feet, or if sometimes in calm conditions, if you're lined up, you're lined up and limited rudder input is needed to stay on centerline. Thx.
Click to expand...
Some intructors want to see the rudder swinging left and right constantly. I don't know where that came from, but the chief outcome from such a habit is a lot of worn rudder control system parts and rudder hinges.

As you close the throttle you will need more rudder movement to get some action. No prop blast means a less effective rudder.

As someone else said, a few hours of taildragger time will fix it.
 
I would question him as to what he is seeing and why he wants it. I'm a returned rusty pilot, and I had some issues landing after a very long layoff. I would get a few inches above the runway and he would say, "Hold it there!" So I would hold the stick where it was and get a hard landing. This went on for longer than it should have, finally he says to me " why do you keep dropping the nose, when I keep telling you to hold it there!". (Need more back pressure as speed bleeds off.) Neither one of us was amused, it was a "failure to communicate".
 
Sawing the ailerons back and forth withour rudder inputs is inefficient for keeping the plane lined up on the centerline, especially as you get closer to the runway. Using the rudder to lead turns a bit will lessen the need to saw that yoke back and forth so much in the final flare.This is especially apparent in a gusty crosswind. You roll the plane, it takes a little while to turn the nose. You push the rudder, the nose moves immediately, while encouraging the plane to bank slightly in the desired direction due to dihedral effect. Close to the ground, you don't have a lot of time to wait for the roll to induce a turn. USE YOUR FEET!

To this day, I can still channel my primary instructor from 35 years ago, who, with occasional firm taps to the back of the head with an old trade-a-plane, would admonish "Use your feet! Use your feet!" on short final. Worked wonders. And I haven't ever forgotten.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Hey,

My CFI tells me I am right on the cusp of solo. He says my pattern work is flawless, radio work is well above what would be expected at this experience level and that in general my final approach is spot on until we start to flare. He tells me while flaring, I often become fixated on rounding out and stop working the pedals so that we are not always bang on the centerline as we touch down. Certainly I recognize this sometimes, but other times, we look lined up and I'm not seeing the issue in my sight picture. To make matters more confusing, from time to time we land perfectly, smooth flare, lined up on centerline, stall horn just starting to chirp as we touch down and the sight picture looks good to me and little to no rudder input is needed. In these cases he will tell me the landing was very nice, but chide me for not working the rudders more. I suppose to some degree I feel like the rudder work is being so overemphasized that sometimes it distracts me from smoothly rounding out. Do I really need to be "dancing" on the pedals on EVERY short final? Any tips on how to mentally sort this and get my sight picture down so I can grease enough on in a row that he let's me solo already? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Answer: For normal (not crosswind) landings, don't use any rudder pressure at all. During my instructing career I had five paraplegic students who used hand controls, and I taught them all to just forget about the rudder when landing. This was in PA-28s. For crosswinds, I had them fly down a long, not busy runway at an altitude of about a foot, keeping the upwind tire over the centerline until they got the bank and rudder coordination down pat. I can't Imagine what your CFI is trying to accomplish..."the perfect is the enemy of the good."

Bob Gardner
 
The easiest way to fix landing problems is not to land. Seriously. Get down to like 3- 5 ft, stall horn blaring, then add a touch of power and keep it straight and off the ground all the way down the runway, then push in the throttle and go around. Solves a multitude of problems. When it comes time to learn to fly an ILS, being comfortable using your feet for small corrections comes in REAL handy.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Yup, I am trying to figure out what's wrong with my sight picture so I can "see" what I am doing wrong regarding the alignment and fix it, so I can move on. Close, but no cigar, yet.
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What are you looking at? The runway right in front of you? A point down at the end? Something beyond the end but on centerline? What airplane are you flying? The CFI’s here, there are a few, might give you some ‘tailored tips’ to your aircraft. Have you ever asked, or has your CFI ever told you what you should be looking at as you begin the flare?
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Yup, more practice required I suppose! Hopefully the weather holds for tomorrow!
Click to expand...
"Tomorrow", ask your CFI if you can make longer finals and practice side slipping from one side of the runway to the other while keeping your longitudinal axis parallel with the centerline. If you can do that, he'll shut up.
 
dtuuri said:
"Tomorrow", ask your CFI if you can make longer finals and practice side slipping from one side of the runway to the other while keeping your longitudinal axis parallel with the centerline. If you can do that, he'll shut up.
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Yeah. That’d be kinda like doing the Dutch Roll thing on Final
 
I found the use of a red bird crosswind simulator invaluable during my primary training. A few hours on that thing really helped me nail my sight picture/where to look as well as my muscle memory.
 
PaulS said:
No, no, no, not below 200 ft agl, at least in Cirrus.
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I typically kill the YD as I enter the pattern, with crosswinds, etc., I like having full authority over the aircraft. Despite the stereotypes I am not a huge abuser of the GFC700.. coming out of KMYF once you make the turn from 280 to OCN it gets a little boring so it goes on.. but I'll typically kill it on the descent well before the airport, usually a good 10-20 miles out. Hard IMC I leave it on
 
jjflys said:
I found the use of a red bird crosswind simulator invaluable during my primary training
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Only thing in my life that has ever made me genuinely motion sick.. I can read below decks on swaying sailboats, do crossword puzzles in cars, fly around in steep turns all day, etc., but put me in one of those motion simulators... forget it. Don't know why.
 
JulietSierraBravo79 said:
Hey,

My CFI tells me I am right on the cusp of solo. He says my pattern work is flawless, radio work is well above what would be expected at this experience level and that in general my final approach is spot on until we start to flare. He tells me while flaring, I often become fixated on rounding out and stop working the pedals so that we are not always bang on the centerline as we touch down. Certainly I recognize this sometimes, but other times, we look lined up and I'm not seeing the issue in my sight picture. To make matters more confusing, from time to time we land perfectly, smooth flare, lined up on centerline, stall horn just starting to chirp as we touch down and the sight picture looks good to me and little to no rudder input is needed. In these cases he will tell me the landing was very nice, but chide me for not working the rudders more. I suppose to some degree I feel like the rudder work is being so overemphasized that sometimes it distracts me from smoothly rounding out. Do I really need to be "dancing" on the pedals on EVERY short final? Any tips on how to mentally sort this and get my sight picture down so I can grease enough on in a row that he let's me solo already? Thanks!
Click to expand...


can't stop flying the plane during the flare and even after the wheels touch down. Keep flying the plane until you are stopped.
 
I had, and still have to a certain degree, the same issue. A couple things to remember..
1. As you get slower, your control surfaces are LESS effective and need more input. Increase input through the flare and rollout.. DON'T let off. Full aileron into the wind during rollout if necessary.
2. As others have already said, you can't use the nose of the airplane to judge whether or not you're lined up longitudinally.
3. Steer with your feet. STEER with your feet. STEER WITH YOUR FEET. Correct for drift w/ your hands. Learn to recognize the difference. This was the toughest for me (and I still wrestle with it). That's why I said it three times.. more for me than you.
4. Don't know if this is part of your problem, but I always drift left if I don't conciously think about it, and it's partially because I've got my left hand on the yoke and right hand on the throttle. As I pull back on the yoke to hold the nose off, I also tend to inadvertently lower that side of the yoke causing a slight left bank. A pilot buddy suggested grabbing the yoke in the center.

Keep in mind this is advice from a sub-200 hour pilot who's been flying off and on for fifteen years. Yeah.. do the math. Embarassing. I'm doing a LOT better finally in terms of flying frequently.
 
In my plane (may be different in yours), my landings got better when i was given the following advice.

On short final (this is not a cross wind scenario) hold the stick (yoke) still and use the rudder to correct runway alignment.

I conciously lock my arm in place on the stick so i dont move it. All corrections are done with the rudder.

Yes, there are many exceptions to the above depending on conditions, but the concept of locking my arm rigid and focusing on the rudder greatly improved my landings.

My plane is a low wing Zenith 601XL, light sport plane. I dont know if this translates to other aircraft or not...
 
Second thoughts: As an instructor and DPE all I expected from a private pilot student/applicant was a safe landing. Commercial students/applicants were held to a higher standard. I can't find anything in the ACS that requires a private pilot applicant to land on the centerline, and if during a checkride an applicant failed to land on the centerline I would be at a loss as to how to write up the pink slip.

I once had an 80-year-old "student" who had received a 150 as part of a real estate deal. I never soloed him, and I'm sure that he could not have passed the knowledge test, but he did teach me something: During pattern work I was doing my instructor thing, talking, talking, talking..."Do this," "don't do that," "watch your (whatever)." He finally told me that if I would just shut up and let him fly the plane he would do just fine. I did and he did. You might suggest this to your instructor.

Bob
 
Long ago when I was like 19, a really crusty old time airline Capt was checking me out in a DC 3, he said in no uncertain terms "keep your arse hole over the center line at all times"
 
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