How to minimize part 61 flight training cost

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rookie1255

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rookie1255
Let's call it a hypothetical scenario. I want to be an airline pilot and I'm doing flight training part 61 at a local flight school because I've heard that's the way to go to save money. So far I'm on track and I've been happy with the experience. I've completed my private at about 40 hours and my instrument in about the same amount of time and I'm at 90 hours total time. I'm on track to spend a small fraction of what it would cost to get my commercial/CFI at a "big name" flight program.

The problem now is that I need 250 hours to be eligible for the commercial check ride. My instructor combined many of the commercial requirements with my instrument training so I don't have a whole lot left to do with those. He also says he could likely do my commercial/CFI training in about 20 hours so I should time build for about the next 140 hours to save cost and not have to pay for an instructor during that flight time.

140 hours would cost about $18,000. I could potentially reduce the cost by trying to find a fellow time building partner to split the cost, that would bring it down to 9k. If I could always find 3 friends to split the cost then it could theoretically bring it down to $4,500, but that's not realistic (good luck getting the schedule of 3 other people to mesh and have them each pay 1/4th of the hobbs time).

I'm also wondering what the point is of these 140 hours. My instructor says I probably am not going to be any more proficient with my instrument stuff than I am now, and the same goes for my private pilot maneuvers and if anything I'll probably need to brush up on good stick and rudder flying when starting commercial training.

Flying cross country for 140 hours doesn't seem to be very good training just flying point A to B and spending a lot of time in-between in cruise.

I know it might be a scary prospect, but why not allow an instrument student to go right into commercial training and maybe get their commercial certificate at 100 hours? I bet folks who time build for 140 hours only get worse with procedures and things like checklist usage compared to staying in a training/standards mentality. Can you really tell the difference between such a pilot and one who spent an extra 140 hours buzzing in the air?

Since reality is that I need 140 hours whether I like it or not, I dreamed of flying all over the U.S. and turning the time building into a chance to see the country and do all sorts of neat things. However, this just adds onto the cost then. Higher fuel prices at other locations, landing fees, parking, hotels, transportation, and entertainment at these places would only make the cost that much more.

Is there an optimal/cheap way to do this, or do I just need to suck it up, quit whining, pay my 18k, and be grateful the entry level airline job I hope to have one day isn't paying fast food wages like it used to?

Thanks in advance for the advice, asking for a friend.
 
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How do you figure between 3 friends your cost will go down that much?

x country flying will be very valuable, more than just staying in the pattern for those hours.

find the cheapest possible plane and go fly.
 
All the $$$ the OP saved by cruising through PP and IR training will be spent acquiring the necessary 250 hours to get to his commercial check ride. Ironic, ain't it? It's all the same in the end... ;)
 
TommyG said:
How do you figure between 3 friends your cost will go down that much?

x country flying will be very valuable, more than just staying in the pattern for those hours.

find the cheapest possible plane and go fly.
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If the total cost was 18k, then having 3 friends pay their pro-rata share would mean I would only come out of pocket 4.5k for the flight time. I’m saying it’s not realistic though to dream of that. The cheapest plane at the flight school is 18k although for block time if I could pay it all at once I might be able to get around $1000 discount, maybe even more. It might be a moot point though, since who has 18k to just pay up front after powering through private pilot and instrument ratings?
 
rookie1255 said:
Let's call it a hypothetical scenario. I want to be an airline pilot and I'm doing flight training part 61 at a local flight school because I've heard that's the way to go to save money. So far I'm on track and I've been happy with the experience. I've completed my private at about 40 hours and my instrument in about the same amount of time and I'm at 90 hours total time. I'm on track to spend a small fraction of what it would cost to get my commercial/CFI at a "big name" flight program.

The problem now is that I need 250 hours to be eligible for the commercial check ride. My instructor combined many of the commercial requirements with my instrument training so I don't have a whole lot left to do with those. He also says he could likely do my commercial/CFI training in about 20 hours so I should time build for about the next 140 hours to save cost and not have to pay for an instructor during that flight time.

140 hours would cost about $18,000. I could potentially reduce the cost by trying to find a fellow time building partner to split the cost, that would bring it down to 9k. If I could always find 3 friends to split the cost then it could theoretically bring it down to $4,500, but that's not realistic (good luck getting the schedule of 3 other people to mesh and have them each pay 1/4th of the hobbs time).

I'm also wondering what the point is of these 140 hours. My instructor says I probably am not going to be any more proficient with my instrument stuff than I am now, and the same goes for my private pilot maneuvers and if anything I'll probably need to brush up on good stick and rudder flying when starting commercial training.

Flying cross country for 140 hours doesn't seem to be very good training just flying point A to B and spending a lot of time in-between in cruise.

I know it might be a scary prospect, but why not allow an instrument student to go right into commercial training and maybe get their commercial certificate at 100 hours? I bet folks who time build for 140 hours only get worse with procedures and things like checklist usage compared to staying in a training/standards mentality. Can you really tell the difference between such a pilot and one who spent an extra 140 hours buzzing in the air?

Since reality is that I need 140 hours whether I like it or not, I dreamed of flying all over the U.S. and turning the time building into a chance to see the country and do all sorts of neat things. However, this just adds onto the cost then. Higher fuel prices at other locations, landing fees, hotels, transportation, and entertainment at these places would only make the cost that much more.

Is there an optimal/cheap way to do this, or do I just need to suck it up, quit whining, pay my 18k, and be grateful the entry level airline job I hope to have one day isn't paying fast food wages like it used to?

Thanks in advance for the advice, asking for a friend.
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Have you considered doing single and multi commercial, the CFI, MEI and CFI instrument training as part of the hours you need? Once you had your 250 hours you would take 5 tests and you would be done except the ATP. Will cost you more than $18k, but you would be getting more value than boring holes.

Also have you considered working where they give employees a plane rental discount?
 
The flight school will give discounted flight time to CFIs so that will be be a benefit after my ratings. I also planned to use my future CFI income to pay for ME and MEI ratings later and having that time go towards the 1500 ATP requirement. I agree doing ME now would get me to the 250 hr requirement with more value but would cost more now, which is exactly what I’m trying to avoid. My instructor had already planned to combine my CFI and commercial training by having me do the commercial checkride in the right seat and getting the DPE’s approval in advance to do that. Then it would really be the same check ride for CFI with no additional flight training needed other than the 3 hours pre checkride flying.
 
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rookie1255 said:
The flight school will give discounted flight time to CFIs so that will be be a benefit after my ratings. I also planned to use my future CFI income to pay for ME and MEI ratings later and having that time go towards the 1500 ATP requirement. I agree doing ME now would get me to the 250 hr requirement with more value but would cost more now, which is exactly what I’m trying to avoid. My instructor had already planned to combine my CFI and commercial training by having me do the commercial checkride in the right seat and getting the DPE’s approval in advance to do that. Then it would really be the same check ride for CFI with no additional flight training needed other than the 3 hours pre checkride flying.
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See, you got it all figured out.
 
Gliders on your area? Rent 152, go very slow.
 
If I paid for ME training now and say it would take 5-7 hours, which is optimistic. This would reduce 5 hours of time building cost but add on the cost of multi-engine rental and instructor. This would basically increase the cost by about $1600 over solo 172 rental. I could not build time towards MEI since MEI requires 15 hours PIC and I wouldn't be able to log that until after my single engine commercial check ride then doing the multi commercial add-on. Then I could do 15 hours time building/training and take the MEI at that point although one could argue it isn't needed. Airlines don't seem to require it, and the effort to get it might not be worth it compared to just paying for a few more hours to meet the 25 hr ME time minimums. Added up front cost of $1600 without much immediate benefit. I also want to do ME time when I'm close to ATP mins so that my ME time is recent and I'm proficient when applying to airlines.

Glider rental may be an option. Nothing local so I would have to travel/potentially find lodging. That might make it cost prohibitive. I would first need to get a private pilot glider add on. Glider dual training cost comes out to the same as solo renting the 172 at the local flight school. Assuming I did this option and it took 15 hours to get an add on rating, then my savings would be over the next 125 hours after that. Glider rental is $50 an hour, tow to 2500ft is also $50. I don't know anything about gliders but I'll assume a tow to 2500ft will get me an hour of flight time. This would save me about $23 an hour vs. renting a 172 over 125 hours. This could theoretically save me $2875. Downside is I'm not spending time in airplanes, hassle to travel to the glider school, my understanding is I'm expected to help with the whole glider operation/set up so it takes more time compared to hopping into a powered aircraft and just going/being done after landing. Pros would be getting a glider rating and saving almost 3 grand. It may be a viable solution although saving 3 grand may be possible in powered aircraft by sharing flight time. I mentioned earlier it was unreasonable to expect to save $13,500 by splitting flight time 4 ways on every flight, but finding someone to fly with at least some of the time and saving 3k over 140 hours doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

No 152 available. Potential LSA available, but rental cost is more than the 172. Going slow won't help since fuel is included in the rental rate.
 
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Sounds like you need to find a cheaper airplane. Our club has a warrior that costs $40/ tach hour dry. Pulled back, I bet you could get down to $60 an hour with gas easily. I've heard of clubs cheaper even than that. Best I've seen was a guy who was in a single- plane club that had a 172 for $50/hr wet.

Other option... buy a $20,000 airplane. You should be able to sell it for close to what you paid for it. Just have to be lucky enough that the engine holds together until you sell....
 
rookie1255 said:
Going slow won't help since fuel is included in the rental rate.
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is your goal to build time or cover ground? This whole post bothers me. 250 hours is 250 hours. You want to have passengers ride with you and pay their share on every flight? You do realize that splitting it 4-ways means you will have to spend 1000 hours in the plane to log 250? Time builders don’t want you taking their time. Want to do it cheap? Get a slow, fuel efficient plane and fly as much as you can. Then sell the plane when your done.... ie a CHEAP 152 as mentioned above.
 
I meant splitting 4 ways with friends and going on trips. If it was with a pilot time building then I'm sure we would both want the flight time. We wouldn't have to fly double though because both of us could log PIC if one of us was a safety pilot and the other was under the foggles.

Further research shows a glider tow to 2500ft will be unlikely to yield an hour of flight time, especially for someone starting out learning how to maximize lift. Looks like savings would actually be very little overall, not even factoring the additional time/effort getting to the location and assisting with the glider operation.

As far as buying an airplane, say I could purchase a bare-bones 150 for 16k, and estimate it'll take 2 years to get everything done.
Costs:
I'll estimate fuel cost to be $25 an hour. For 140 hours that's $3500.
2 years hangar: $4320 (Weather here doesn't permit tie-downs)
2 years insurance: $1600
2 years of annuals/maintenance/pre buy inspection: $3000 (rough guess?)
Total cost $12,420. I could potentially save over $3000-$4000 vs block rate 172 rental. Maybe more if I got everything done in a year instead of two.

Cons: Risk of unexpected maintenance or engine overhaul (potentially costing more than the plane), not being able to sell the plane quickly, every month it wouldn't sell would increase the monthly cost.
Pros: I own an airplane! Potential savings on time building.

The savings don't seem to be that much and there's a whole lot of risk. The unknown maintenance is a big one. What if I couldn't sell the airplane afterwards right away and continued to incur the monthly cost of owning it? What if I couldn't sell it for what I paid for it?

Maybe the savings would be greater if I had bought an airplane from day one and done all my training in it, but then I would have had to pay to have someone fly it here, had no idea what I was doing, and I'm sure it just would have been ugly. After going through the numbers if someone came up to me and said their plan was to buy a plane and start their training that way, I would either call it a genius move, or consider them a complete idiot and give it a 50/50 they achieve their goal of saving money versus regretting doing it.

Also the plane I would buy could only help with time building since it wouldn't meet the requirement for commercial training/check ride so I would still need to rent an airplane for that. To buy an airplane that would be able to be used for that would be unrealistic both in purchase price and I'm sure in higher insurance/maintenance costs as well.

Another point to mention would be that the savings would only be realized after the sale of the time building airplane. So I would need to pay for this 16k airplane up front, spend another 12.5k bringing my total up to $28,500 out of pocket, and getting my 3-4k "savings" after the airplane was sold.

This 3-4k savings might not even be real since I couldn't split the time with someone or if I did it I could only charge them half the fuel ($12.50ish an hour?). Compared to the rental plane where splitting the cost for part of the time will also easily knock off a few thousand from the total cost.

Maybe the math is off, maybe I'm just being pessimistic, or maybe the universe just hates flight students. Going to a big name flight school might cost 3x as much, but those structured/university programs allow student loans. Do I care that the cost is triple if I don't pay a dime now and start payments after I actually have a paycheck to deduct from? There's also room and board cost but they wrap that into student loans as well. Granted there's also all the interest that would be paid but that's also at the tail end.

Maybe the grass is just greener on the other side. There are the folks who graduated from aviation universities and say it's not worth it because of all the debt and relatively low pay and everyone should just go to a local part 61 school. From my point of view though, it sure seems nice to be able to have finances taken care of and to be able to focus on training without also being burdened with the logistics of paying for it/trying to save on training cost.

Prostitutes probably make around $200 an hour. Only way a male could make that much would probably to be a prostitute for other males. So breaking out the calculator, I would only need to have sex with 85 male strangers for an hour each to be within striking distance of commercial/CFI...
 
rookie1255 said:
Snip
If I could always find 3 friends to split the cost then it could theoretically bring it down to $4,500, but that's not realistic (good luck getting the schedule of 3 other people to mesh and have them each pay 1/4th of the hobbs time).
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Wait, is that seriously a thing people do? Three safety pilots with two back seaters logging time? You can log PIC when you can't even reach so much as the defroster lever? Huh.
 
The three would just be non pilot friends splitting the cost. I guess the other person in front could be a safety pilot and log time. The 2 passengers in back might be wondering why one of the pilots is blindfolded though.
 
If you want it badly enough, you’ll get it done one way or the other, as many of us have. There ARE shortcuts, and ways to save money, but you have to be willing to take risks and every situation is different. For instance you could go to a 141 school for the commercial at 180 hours if that’s still an option. I got a tailwheel endorsement and found a place that let me fly a J-3 Cub for about $35/hr about 15 years ago, which helped a lot.
 
You can take a commercial test in pretty much any plane now. You just need to rent a TAA or complex plane for the required 10 hours.

you can
1. find a club. That’s likely to cut that cost in half
2. Finance a cheap plane
..and take friends places(splitting costs even more) slowly

CC flying is very useful learning experience btw. This is why 250h is required for commercial
 
genna said:
CC flying is very useful learning experience btw. This is why 250h is required for commercial
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^This. Buy a plane and enjoy the hell out of it. The hours will come and you'll have a great experience base.
 
Buy a cheap time builder, fly it slow, and sell when you get your hours. Do some cross countries with a few overnights in cheap hotels. Take a friend on a few adventures and let them share expenses.
 
There is real value in XC time if you do not limit yourself to flying from A to B and back again. The reason behind the requirement is to expose the commercial applicant to a variety of weather systems, terrain, and airports. Try to avoid going to the same airport twice; expand your horizons. Look at it as an opportunity, not a burden.

Bob
 
rookie1255 said:
Let's call it a hypothetical scenario. I want to be an airline pilot and I'm doing flight training part 61 at a local flight school because I've heard that's the way to go to save money. So far I'm on track and I've been happy with the experience. I've completed my private at about 40 hours and my instrument in about the same amount of time and I'm at 90 hours total time. I'm on track to spend a small fraction of what it would cost to get my commercial/CFI at a "big name" flight program.

The problem now is that I need 250 hours to be eligible for the commercial check ride. My instructor combined many of the commercial requirements with my instrument training so I don't have a whole lot left to do with those. He also says he could likely do my commercial/CFI training in about 20 hours so I should time build for about the next 140 hours to save cost and not have to pay for an instructor during that flight time.

140 hours would cost about $18,000. I could potentially reduce the cost by trying to find a fellow time building partner to split the cost, that would bring it down to 9k. If I could always find 3 friends to split the cost then it could theoretically bring it down to $4,500, but that's not realistic (good luck getting the schedule of 3 other people to mesh and have them each pay 1/4th of the hobbs time).

I'm also wondering what the point is of these 140 hours. My instructor says I probably am not going to be any more proficient with my instrument stuff than I am now, and the same goes for my private pilot maneuvers and if anything I'll probably need to brush up on good stick and rudder flying when starting commercial training.

Flying cross country for 140 hours doesn't seem to be very good training just flying point A to B and spending a lot of time in-between in cruise.

I know it might be a scary prospect, but why not allow an instrument student to go right into commercial training and maybe get their commercial certificate at 100 hours? I bet folks who time build for 140 hours only get worse with procedures and things like checklist usage compared to staying in a training/standards mentality. Can you really tell the difference between such a pilot and one who spent an extra 140 hours buzzing in the air?

Since reality is that I need 140 hours whether I like it or not, I dreamed of flying all over the U.S. and turning the time building into a chance to see the country and do all sorts of neat things. However, this just adds onto the cost then. Higher fuel prices at other locations, landing fees, parking, hotels, transportation, and entertainment at these places would only make the cost that much more.

Is there an optimal/cheap way to do this, or do I just need to suck it up, quit whining, pay my 18k, and be grateful the entry level airline job I hope to have one day isn't paying fast food wages like it used to?

Thanks in advance for the advice, asking for a friend.
Click to expand...

You need to ask yourself if you are looking to build time, or looking to build experience. One does not necessarily equate to the other.
 
You can try to barter with the flight school. Wash some planes, clean the hangar, etc. Or maybe get your AGI and teach ground school. If your goal is the airlines, I wouldn’t even bother with the MEI IMO. You’ll get scooped up with 25 hours MEL and it’s just another ride that you’ll have to pay for that won’t really give you a good return on investment. I did a weekend course that got me 7 hours and then I just built the rest of the 18 hours with another CFI in a Grumman Cougar. I interviewed with my regional with like 1300TT and 11 MEL and got the job.
 
You can get a lot done while building experience for your commercial. Make every flight a cross-country, and to an airport you haven't landed at before. File and fly IFR. Fly night cross-country.

I never bought that right after your instrument checked is when you will be the most proficient. Get out and fly in the system a lot, especially into busy fields during peak times and you'll be a lot better than when the ink was still wet.

Do you just want hours or do you want real experience?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
rookie1255 said:
140 hours would cost about $18,000. I could potentially reduce the cost by trying to find a fellow time building partner to split the cost, that would bring it down to 9k. If I could always find 3 friends to split the cost then it could theoretically bring it down to $4,500,
Click to expand...

Unless you're assuming that the pilot flying is always under the hood and the pilot not flying is a safety pilot, it doesn't work this way. Forgive me if I misunderstood, but buddying up in an airplane doesn't mean that everyone gets to log all the same hours.
 
rookie1255 said:
Flying cross country for 140 hours doesn't seem to be very good training just flying point A to B and spending a lot of time in-between in cruise.
Click to expand...

Disagree *strongly* with this.
Flying cross-country has taught me more than I ever learned in training about weather, about terrain, about planning, about local airport/FBO cultures, about finding out about special procedures, about density altitude, about fatigue management, about fuel management, about dealing with repair shops on the road, and most importantly of all, about patience.

I look back on my 100-hour self and would say "Wow, I knew so little about anything." And its corollary: "It's no wonder they don't let people go pro with these few hours."

rookie1255 said:
Since reality is that I need 140 hours whether I like it or not, I dreamed of flying all over the U.S. and turning the time building into a chance to see the country and do all sorts of neat things. However, this just adds onto the cost then.
Click to expand...

NOW HERE, we are on the right track! *Follow this dream.* Do those neat things. Have an adventure. Check your logbook, see what's the farthest from home you've ever flown, and then pick a destination that's farther. A different state. A different biome. Different weather, different terrain. Bring friends. Or not; being solo is its own kind of adventure and learning. Do not obsess about the money when you do this; that'll only drive you mad. Yes, you'll spend money on fuel, on lodging, on landing fees, on greasy-spoon breakfasts at the airport diner, on dinner out with the strangers-turned-friends you'll meet in the pilots lounge, on quarts of oil, on that hotel room as the thunderstorm rolls through. Spend it. They are not dollars wasted. They are the whole point. You'll learn volumes.
 
Walboy said:
So what happened next? Did you continue to build time until close to 1500 hours and then off you went to training?
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Yea I started training like 2.5 months later. I initially picked a class date in like June thinking I wouldn’t have the time until then because it was winter time and it was kind of slow but I ended up getting the time earlier than expected and called them up and they were able to fit me in to an earlier class.
 
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