How to lose your CFI in 5 minutes on the ground...

murphey said:
Nope, can't log PIC time, not rated in a HP airplane. But I can log the time. Subtle or not so subtle difference in terminology and/or interpretation.

But for 11 hours (of my thousand or so) I'm not going to worry about it. Should the FAA complain on my CFI checkride, I'll happily mark thru those 11 hours, aint gonna cause me any worries.
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Wrong. You can log PIC. The 182 is an ASEL. You are an ASEL pilot. You are rated. Has nothing to with having a complex or HP endorsement. They are ENDORSEMENTS not ratings.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.



  • (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-


    • (i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
 
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flyingron said:
If some instructor for any reason changed an entry I made in MY logbook, the instructor would certainly have lost a student.

He's entitled to his (incorrect) opinion, but he has no business defacing my log book entries.
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This!!


Same for a CFI that decides to "strike out" space in my logbook so I can't put the proper entry in.
 
That stuff underlined in RED makes it crystal clear that the sole manipulator of the controls may not ACT as PIC, but may LOG PIC. Under the conditions described.
 
I'm glad this is finally settled! :D

That way when it comes up again in a few days, we can just point the poster here, or there, or there, or there, or there, or.......
 
I have never been instructed in or endorsed for a tail wheel plane, but while taxiing a tail wheel plane, a gust of wind hit and lifted the plane off the ground. I added power to slow the descent and flew it for about 100 yards along the taxiway. Can I log that..??









Ok, just kidding.... :):);)
 
The issue I have is the guy who legally logged a high performance flight prior to August 4, 1997, but after the 1978 date that the previous reg specified...on August 3, 1997, he wasn't legal to act as PIC of a high performance airplane, but a day later he was.
 
no name said:
CFI: ... I gave you a dual time for today's flight and struck out the space for PIC so that you cannot enter the time into it because you are not allowed to.
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Use the line below the CFI's entry to record the sole manipulator time in the PIC column. Put a note in the remarks along the lines of "PIC time from flight on previous line/date"
 
I am a student pilot and have flown with a few friends sevral times. I have done all the work sevral times, but never loged the time. As a student pilot I am not allowed to have passengers.
 
Legal or not I just equate Acting as PIC to logging PIC time. If i'm not acting I'm not logging (PIC that is). I may have missed out on a few hours but I feel better about myself this way.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
I am a student pilot and have flown with a few friends sevral times. I have done all the work sevral times, but never loged the time. As a student pilot I am not allowed to have passengers.
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As a student, you not allowed to act as PIC with passengers because you can not solo with passengers. That has nothing to do with whether or not you can log it.

FAR 61.51 spells out when a student pilot may log flight time, and when he may log PIC time.
 
Larry in TN said:
As a student, you not allowed to act as PIC with passengers because you can not solo with passengers. That has nothing to do with whether or not you can log it.

FAR 61.51 spells out when a student pilot may log flight time, and when he may log PIC time.
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technically NOBODY can solo with passengers. ;)

But yes, the logability for a student pilot is different than the logability for a private pilot or higher in the OP's scenario.
 
mscard88 said:
Mulligan actually a, gasp, Aubby fan.

Roll Tide!
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Ill let Mulligan slide only because I have a nephew going to Auburn now. But bama fans....ugh! :) Im going to the state game this weekend but...well..I don't think we have a chance..oh well, something to do.

Sole manipulator, ASEL, log pic easy peasy. Not sole manipulator or a student pilot log no pic, easy peasy. Plus we are talking only .5 hrs I mean seriously. In the end that .5 hours wont mean anything. Unless of course you are right at 250 hours for your commercial and the DPE or CFI digs way back to find that little .5. And yeah I agree don't touch my log book, its my record to keep.

There now I contributed so my thread creep is justified.
 
dmspilot said:
Herman, para. 3: (Orange and red underlining mine.)
View attachment 48912

para. 4: (Blue underlining yours, red mine.)
View attachment 48911
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And herein lays the weirdness of the the FAR's and the interpretations. In summary, you can legally log PIC time even though you are not legally qualified to be PIC.

No wonder US pilot logbooks are viewed with suspicion outside of the USA. I had an FO try to pull the same stunt on an A320- where he tried to log the sectors where he was pilot-flying as PIC. o_O
 
The instructor is a tool. I would never change an entry in someone's logbook. You can certainly log the time.

I do however tell them if they could have logged pic and didn't so they can get the pic time. I don't change the entries. I see this issue logged incorrectly in tons of logbooks.

If said instructor instructed at my school they would be instructed to not vandalize our customers logbooks. A repeat of such an event would end the relationship.

Instructors aren't always right. I've definitely been wrong about my interpretation of the FARS. However when I'm wrong I thank the person for correcting me, learn from it, and move on with life.

I would sit down with the instructor with that interpretation. If the instructor still disagrees I strongly suggest you find a new one. You don't want to learn from a guy that never learned from anyone else.
 
MauleSkinner said:
technically NOBODY can solo with passengers.
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Actually, you can! (Though it probably doesn't happen very often)

14 CFR 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.​

Panama Jack said:
And herein lays the weirdness of the the FAR's and the interpretations. In summary, you can legally log PIC time even though you are not legally qualified to be PIC.
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It makes perfect sense if you read the beginning of 14 CFR 61.51:

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.​

The ONLY reason the FAA has you log time is so that it can be used to document the training and aeronautical experience needed to meet the requirements of a certificate, rating, flight review or currency requirements of the FARs. They allow sole manipulator PIC time because when you're the sole manipulator you are gaining the experience that those regulatory requirements intend for you to be receiving whether or not you are the PIC of record. It's that simple.

Many of us think of our logbooks as something more encompassing than just a record of flight time used to meet those regulatory requirements and we carry those assumptions into our interpretations of 14 CFR 61.51. Best thing to do is use a good electronic logbook where you can keep track of time in such a way that you can pull up totals that are compliant with 61.51 or that match the requirements of insurance company's, rental applications, or potential employers--all of which will be somewhat different.

Many CFIs do a terrible job of teaching this to their primary students.
 
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jesse said:
I would sit down with the instructor with that interpretation. If the instructor still disagrees I strongly suggest you find a new one. You don't want to learn from a guy that never learned from anyone else.
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^^ That.

Instructors are just like us: human. We all are capable of making mistakes.
However, if we are not willing to learn from our mistakes, that is not good news.
 
Larry in TN said:
Actually, you can! (Though it probably doesn't happen very often)

14 CFR 61.51 (d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.​
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That looks to me like flying with another crewmember, not passengers.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That looks to me like flying with another crewmember, not passengers.
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It's still a weird rule. It's probably a matter of having the required "solo" hours to apply for a private pilot license with an airship rating, but that just begs the question. It would make a lot more sense for student pilots to have a requirement of 20 hours as PIC before the practical test, and then you don't have to create a legal fiction of flying "solo" when you are one of the numerous required crew. For airplanes, the only PIC time you can get prior to the private check ride is solo time.

Also, who out there is letting a student pilot perform the duties of PIC of an airship that is so big it requires more than one pilot on board to fly?

Timbeck2 said:
If this is true, how can one log their check ride as PIC when they aren't yet "rated" for the aircraft flown? You aren't really "rated" until you land, taxi back and handshakes are presented, right? I mean they say that the DPE is your first passenger right?
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I'm glad this came up, because I finally took the time to figure it out. It's always bothered me a little bit in the back of my mind. FAR 61.47(b) says the DPE is not PIC unless he agrees with the applicant otherwise and (c) says "Notwithstanding the type of aircraft used during the practical test, the applicant and the examiner (and any other occupants authorized to be on board by the examiner) are not subject to the requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this chapter."

FAR 61.89(a)(1) is where a student pilot is prohibited from acting as PIC of an aircraft that is carrying a passenger. So during the practical test under 61.47(c), the applicant is not subject to the 61.89(a)(1) passenger limitation, and the DPE is a passenger. So is anyone else that the examiner authorizes to be on board, which is probably going to be limited to aspiring DPEs and FAA observers.

I finally figured out how that works. Hooray for me. I wonder what I was supposed to be working on.
 
Bigger question, why the hell did the CFI even make an issue of it? When I fly with someone that is already licensed. I could really care less what he has in his PIC column.
 
murphey said:
Nope, can't log PIC time, not rated in a HP airplane. But I can log the time. Subtle or not so subtle difference in terminology and/or interpretation....
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It's not really a matter of interpretation; the regs are actually written this way. FAR 1.1 defines a rating as a privilege that appears on your certificate. A high performance endorsement (or any endorsement, for that matter) goes in your logbook, not on your certificate, and is therefore not a rating. That is why, even though you need the endorsement to act as PIC, you don't need it to log PIC.
 
Timbeck2 said:
If this is true, how can one log their check ride as PIC when they aren't yet "rated" for the aircraft flown? You aren't really "rated" until you land, taxi back and handshakes are presented, right? I mean they say that the DPE is your first passenger right?
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The applicant is PIC because someone has to be PIC, and the DPE isn't PIC unless decided by prior arrangement; so the only one left to act as PIC is the applicant.

The DPE's status as a "passenger" (along with that of any other people on board with the DPE's consent) for that single flight is allowable under (c) of FAR 61:47.

Rich
 
This gets even more fun with what I just did. Adding a Commercial AMEL on top of a Private ASEL. (With instrument privileges.)

61.129 (b) (4)
"(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-"

It specifically calls out logging PIC time with the Instructor on board, in an aircraft you are NOT rated in. A pretty clear indication that FAA recognizes the difference between "acting" and "logging". Heck they even muddy the waters here by adding "performing the duties of".

You can't take the Commercial AMEL checkride without 10 hours of either true solo logged or by "logging" PIC with the instructor on board who's also "acting and logging" PIC.

Why is this here? Insurance. The instructor meets the instance requirements for the aircraft and he candidate doesn't. Isn't an insurance company out there that'll let a non-rated AMEL candidate wander around solo.

If you want to do it uninsured and your instructor agrees and the airplane owner (maybe you) wants to, you can, but it's not the wisest idea, fiscally speaking.

As of right now, my certificate says:

Privileges:
Commercial Pilot

Ratings and Limitations:
Instrument Airplane; Airplane Mutiengine Land; Private
Pilot Privileges; Airplane Single Engine Land; [LImitations]
English Proficient

After I get done doing the initial CFI in the multi, it'll look even weirder, until I do the single-engine add-ons.
 
no name said:
Background: first flight with this CFI(he is retired and it is a volunteer thing), trying to get checked out(+ HP endorsement) on 182T. After a conclusion of a mostly uneventful flight, the CFI is entering info into my logbook and takes an issue with one of my entries

CFI: I see you have logged .5 hours PIC in this plane before[I flew in it a few months ago with another non-CFI person and he let me practice in it]. You can't log it as PIC.

Note: He brought it up before the flight when i said i have experience in this plane, but I mostly let it go at that time.

Me: Why can't I log it like that? It is how FAA wants to log the time. It is spelled out in FAR that if i am rated in the plane and sole manipulator of the controls, i can log it as PIC time. But that's ok. Log how you want it to log, it makes no difference for the purpose of today's flight.

Note: This went back and forth a couple of time.

CFI: Your opinion is wrong and you are making bad entries in your logbook. FAA says that you cannot log this time as PIC on this plane because you are not qualified to be pilot in command on it because you do not have the endorsement. I gave you a dual time for today's flight and struck out the space for PIC so that you cannot enter the time into it because you are not allowed to.

At this point, I'm getting annoyed, so i pull out my phone, google FAR and quote FAR 61.51 to him and tell him that FAA clarified this issue relatively recently.

He smiles, looks at this other person(we both know him) and does not answer me.....while this other person looks at me and says: "Well, you just lost your instructor".

Me: What? Really? Turning to CFI: Did i really lose my instructor?
CFI: We will talk later.

And this is how i lost my CFI :)... and maybe the entire volunteer thing along with it
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What I get out of this is that the .5 of sole manipulator time with the pilot who let you practice is not loggable as PIC. The time with the CFI should be logged as Dual received AND PIC(the time spent as sole manipulator.) I had kinda a similar situation. I was getting a BFR. A pretty long BFR as I hadn't flown in long time, like about 25 years or so. I flew with 3 different CFI's. All logged it as Dual of course. One, maybe it was two, of them also logged it as PIC. After reading up on it I added PIC to the flights that were logged as Dual only. Same thing happened when getting an IPC.
 
denverpilot said:
This gets even more fun with what I just did. Adding a Commercial AMEL on top of a Private ASEL. (With instrument privileges.)

61.129 (b) (4)
"(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least-"

It specifically calls out logging PIC time with the Instructor on board, in an aircraft you are NOT rated in. A pretty clear indication that FAA recognizes the difference between "acting" and "logging". Heck they even muddy the waters here by adding "performing the duties of".

You can't take the Commercial AMEL checkride without 10 hours of either true solo logged or by "logging" PIC with the instructor on board who's also "acting and logging" PIC.

Why is this here? Insurance. The instructor meets the instance requirements for the aircraft and he candidate doesn't. Isn't an insurance company out there that'll let a non-rated AMEL candidate wander around solo.

If you want to do it uninsured and your instructor agrees and the airplane owner (maybe you) wants to, you can, but it's not the wisest idea, fiscally speaking.

As of right now, my certificate says:

Privileges:
Commercial Pilot

Ratings and Limitations:
Instrument Airplane; Airplane Mutiengine Land; Private
Pilot Privileges; Airplane Single Engine Land; [LImitations]
English Proficient

After I get done doing the initial CFI in the multi, it'll look even weirder, until I do the single-engine add-ons.
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You did CMEL first before CSEL?
 
luvflyin said:
61.51 (e) (iv)
I'm assuming that his buddy who he was flying with, who would be the "supervising pilot" did not meet any of the requirements that would allow logging it as PIC time.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa... back that ride up to 61.51 (e)(1)(i) and stop there

(its been pretty well covered in this thread and many other many times over)
 
luvflyin said:
61.51 (e) (iv)
I'm assuming that his buddy who he was flying with, who would be the "supervising pilot" did not meet any of the requirements that would allow logging it as PIC time.
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What does the reg say are the requirements of the "supervising pilot"?
 
mscard88 said:
well some pilots are ya know, like LDJones on POA and a few others I think

plus many of us stayed at HI Express last night so we got that going
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I knew some had to be. I have learned a lot from everyone on POA in the past few years of reading post. I have stumped a few CFIs with questions I have seen on here. It is nice to know that I can always just ask you guys if I have questions. I think of you guys as a resource.(well most of you)
 
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