How to handle a Terminal VOR in a Clearance?

[Sluggo63]

Take an ibuprofen

It just says, we only publish specifics when it's not standard. Kind of like right turns on red lights. At least in all the states I've driven through, I only see signs for when it's different than the general rule.

That's a really good analogy.

 

[Palmpilot]

...I’m going to wade into this discussion a bit with the full acknowledgment that someone may end up correcting what I’m saying.

In the FAA world, if you look at the airport you’re departing from, and there’s no “Inverse T” symbol, then there’s nothing published in the “Takeoff mins” section and you can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

If there is an “Inverse T” then there is something published in that section, and you have to go look at it. In there may be a textual ODP, non-standard takeoff minimums, climb gradients, close-in obstacle listings or any combination of those.

If there are no non-standard takeoff mins published, then standard takeoff minimums apply. The absence of takeoff mins automatically means that you can use standard takeoff mins.

One correction to what you wrote is that it only applies to airports that have at least one published instrument approach.

 

[Sluggo63]

One correction to what you wrote is that it only applies to airports that have a published instrument approach.

Good point. You’re absolutely correct. Thanks!

 

[midlifeflyer]

One correction to what you wrote is that it only applies to airports that have at least one published instrument approach.

Where would you look for an inverse T symbol?

 

[luvflyin]

One correction to what you wrote is that it only applies to airports that have at least one published instrument approach.

Yeah. It’s on the Approach Chart where the T’s are. Or aren’t. I’ve never seen anywhere else you would find it.

 

[luvflyin]

Where would you look for an inverse T symbol?

Ah. Read down to this after my reply above.

 

[Palmpilot]

This was probably more trouble than it's worth, but it's all typed out now, so I guess I might as well post it.

Where would you look for an inverse T symbol?

Yeah. It’s on the Approach Chart where the T’s are. Or aren’t. I’ve never seen anywhere else you would find it.

Here are the statements that were made:

In the FAA world, if you look at the airport you’re departing from, and there’s no “Inverse T” symbol, then there’s nothing published in the “Takeoff mins” section and you can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

If there is an “Inverse T” then there is something published in that section, and you have to go look at it. In there may be a textual ODP, non-standard takeoff minimums, climb gradients, close-in obstacle listings or any combination of those.

If there are no non-standard takeoff mins published, then standard takeoff minimums apply. The absence of takeoff mins automatically means that you can use standard takeoff mins.​

When considering a takeoff from an airport at which no approaches are published, someone who didn't know any better could reason as follows:

There's no approach plate, so there's no "T" symbol, and the first conditional in blue is satisfied. Therefore I can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

Furthermore, there's no entry for this airport in the Takeoff Mins section, so there are no non-standard takeoff mins published, and the second conditional in blue is satisfied. Therefore I can use standard takeoff mins.​

Those would be dumb inferences, but I've seen worse. The limitation of the statements to airports that have at least one instrument approach is probably implied, but I think it's an important enough point that it needs to be explicit.

 

[dtuuri]

Richard, you are pedantic in a good way. Cheers

 

[midlifeflyer]

When considering a takeoff from an airport at which no approaches are published, someone who didn't know any better could reason as follows:

There's no approach plate, so there's no "T" symbol, and the first conditional in blue is satisfied. Therefore I can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

Well, I guess someone could figure that if there's not approach plate there's an approach anyway.

 

[luvflyin]

This was probably more trouble than it's worth, but it's all typed out now, so I guess I might as well post it.





Here are the statements that were made:

In the FAA world, if you look at the airport you’re departing from, and there’s no “Inverse T” symbol, then there’s nothing published in the “Takeoff mins” section and you can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

If there is an “Inverse T” then there is something published in that section, and you have to go look at it. In there may be a textual ODP, non-standard takeoff minimums, climb gradients, close-in obstacle listings or any combination of those.

If there are no non-standard takeoff mins published, then standard takeoff minimums apply. The absence of takeoff mins automatically means that you can use standard takeoff mins.​

When considering a takeoff from an airport at which no approaches are published, someone who didn't know any better could reason as follows:

There's no approach plate, so there's no "T" symbol, and the first conditional in blue is satisfied. Therefore I can use a diverse departure with standard takeoff mins.

Furthermore, there's no entry for this airport in the Takeoff Mins section, so there are no non-standard takeoff mins published, and the second conditional in blue is satisfied. Therefore I can use standard takeoff mins.​

Those would be dumb inferences, but I've seen worse. The limitation of the statements to airports that have at least one instrument approach is probably implied, but I think it's an important enough point that it needs to be explicit.

That no diverse departure assessment is done at airports without an IAP is supposed to be common knowledge for an Instrument Rated Pilot. Alas………

 

[Palmpilot]

Well, I guess someone could figure that if there's not approach plate there's an approach anyway.

I thought we were talking about departures.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That no diverse departure assessment is done at airports without an IAP is supposed to be common knowledge for an Instrument Rated Pilot. Alas………

I think part of the problem is there's a lot of explaining what things are which don't use the documentation. Things get missed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I thought we were talking about departures.

I thought we were talking about the inverted T that appears on approach plates.

 

[aterpster]

That no diverse departure assessment is done at airports without an IAP is supposed to be common knowledge for an Instrument Rated Pilot. Alas………

There was a time, perhaps 15 or so, years ago that policy permitted an ODP (nee IFR departure procedure) at an airport without any IAPs.

 

[luvflyin]

I think part of the problem is there's a lot of explaining what things are which don't use the documentation. Things get missed.

Yeah. AIM 5-2-9 d. I’d think it would also be somewhere in either the Instrument Flying Handbook or Instrument Procedures Handbook.

 

[luvflyin]

There was a time, perhaps 15 or so, years ago that policy permitted an ODP (nee IFR departure procedure) at an airport without any IAPs.

Yeah. There weren’t very many of them. The only one I knew of by name was Ramona KRNM. There was supposedly also one other then. I don’t remember if they had Control Zones/Surface Area or not. I don’t know for sure that there are not still some out there.

 

[aterpster]

Yeah. There weren’t very many of them. The only one I knew of by name was Ramona KRNM. There was supposedly also one other then. I don’t remember if they had Control Zones/Surface Area or not. I don’t know for sure that there are not still some out there.

I recall Fallbrook (L18). I doubt there are any remaining. Fallbrook and Ramona both got IAPs.

 

[Trogdor]

That no diverse departure assessment is done at airports without an IAP is supposed to be common knowledge for an Instrument Rated Pilot. Alas………

This is my understanding as well. If an airport does not have an approach, then it has not been assessed and thus one can not assume a diverse departure.

 

[aterpster]

This is my understanding as well. If an airport does not have an approach, then it has not been assessed and thus one can not assume a diverse departure.

Also, no Jeppesen 10-9 page or any other Jeppesen pages for a VFR airport.