How to handle a Terminal VOR in a Clearance?

Larry in TN said:
Maybe take a step back to see the bigger picture as it might look on the controller's radar display. What is the controller doing when he releases an IFR flight from N51?

He is protecting an area of airspace around the airport to provide separation for your departure, and for you to maneuver to join your course (V30), prior to establishing radar contact and switching to radar separation standards.

Does it make any difference to him if you turn directly to join V30 immediately (400' AGL after takeoff) vs. loitering in the vicinity of SBJ as you attempt to maneuver to recross it?

What if another airplane is waiting for you to get out of the way in order to begin his approach into, or depart from, N51? Which departure clears the N51 airspace sooner.

Alternatively, *IF* a course reversal to SBJ was required in order to maintain separation with other airspace or traffic, wouldn't the controller include such instructions with your departure instructions? (That's rhetorical. He would.)
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Yes. That covers aluminum vs aluminum. Yeah I know it’s the flatlands around there. But there is an aluminum vs rock thang. Interpreting that KABC DEF V123 is the same as KABC V123 could be a bad thing some places.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes. That covers aluminum vs aluminum. Yeah I know it’s the flatlands around there. But there is an aluminum vs rock thang. Interpreting that KABC DEF V123 is the same as KABC V123 could be a bad thing some places.
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AIM 5-2-9h1 says that the pilot should "Consider the type of terrain and other obstacles on or in the vicinity of the departure airport" and "Determine whether an ODP is available" etc,.
 
Palmpilot said:
My take is that you don't need the flag to flip to determine your location relative to an on-field VOR during the takeoff roll. If you had to determine your location more precisely than that to avoid obstacles, they would have published a detailed departure procedure for planes that meet the climb gradient.
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I dunno what take off roll had to do with it. This guy had departed, then turned to the VOR. It looked like he did wait until station passage before making the turn to the airway radial. That’s all I had commented on.
About the they would have published a Procedure thing, they did there. It’s a VCOA off of RW 31. But you can’t count on ODP’s being published everywhere. With a few exceptions they only do departure assessments and publish ODP’s at airports that have Instrument Approaches.
 
Palmpilot said:
AIM 5-2-9h1 says that the pilot should "Consider the type of terrain and other obstacles on or in the vicinity of the departure airport" and "Determine whether an ODP is available" etc,.
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Exactly. And if there isn’t one available you ‘roll your own.’ And there is no rule that says you must spiral up over the airport if the first element on your Clearance is a Fix or Navaid over or on the airport.
 
luvflyin said:
I dunno what take off roll had to do with it. This guy had departed, then turned to the VOR. It looked like he did wait until station passage before making the turn to the airway radial. That’s all I had commented on.
About the they would have published a Procedure thing, they did there. It’s a VCOA off of RW 31.
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The VCOA at N51 is only specified for aircraft that can't climb at 405' per NM to 1400. There is no specific departure course specified for aircraft that do meet that climb gradient.

TAKEOFF MINIMUMS:
Rwy 31, std. w/ min. climb of 405' per NM to 1400 or 1300-2½ for climb in visual conditions.
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
Rwy 31, for climb in visual conditions; cross Solberg-Hunterdon airport at or above 1300 before proceeding on course.​

But you can’t count on ODP’s being published everywhere. With a few exceptions they only do departure assessments and publish ODP’s at airports that have Instrument Approaches.
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That's true, which is probably one of the reasons why the AIM tells us to consider the terrain and obstacles before departing.
 
Larry in TN said:
Maybe take a step back to see the bigger picture as it might look on the controller's radar display. What is the controller doing when he releases an IFR flight from N51?

He is protecting an area of airspace around the airport to provide separation for your departure, and for you to maneuver to join your course (V30), prior to establishing radar contact and switching to radar separation standards.

Does it make any difference to him if you turn directly to join V30 immediately (400' AGL after takeoff) vs. loitering in the vicinity of SBJ as you attempt to maneuver to recross it?

What if another airplane is waiting for you to get out of the way in order to begin his approach into, or depart from, N51? Which departure clears the N51 airspace sooner.

Alternatively, *IF* a course reversal to SBJ was required in order to maintain separation with other airspace or traffic, wouldn't the controller include such instructions with your departure instructions? (That's rhetorical. He would.)
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So you are tying to be realistic rather than dance on the head of VOR in order to argue in favor of multiple tight turns when first entering the clouds?
 
midlifeflyer said:
So you are tying to be realistic rather than dance on the head of VOR in order to argue in favor of multiple tight turns when first entering the clouds?
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That’s why I’d make a 270-ish turn if I thought I needed to fly over the VOR. It’s one turn, and it’s not a tight turn.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes. That covers aluminum vs aluminum. Yeah I know it’s the flatlands around there. But there is an aluminum vs rock thang. Interpreting that KABC DEF V123 is the same as KABC V123 could be a bad thing some places.
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If there was terrain there would be an ODP. The applicable AIM language has already been posted. ATC is only providing terrain separation when they are providing positive course guidance, i.e. vectors.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I swear... as soon a I wrote that...

View attachment 107241
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I’m asking another N90 controller who originally said he wanted two lefts. Maybe we are just being told wrong. What’s getting me upset is the conflicting information I’m getting from a number of folks.

I agree, joining V30 makes the most logical sense and what I use to do during training.

I was originally told it had to do with a) lost comms and b) SBJ is “special” since four arrivals go through it into the Bravos (I’m not exactly sure why that matters).

At least I know that map wasn’t me! (I fly a bit straighter).
 
MauleSkinner said:
Now there’s a clearance… “upon entering controlled airspace, make two left turns…”
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Funny. But obviously this was more chat/forum talk.

BUT as you pointed out, that’s what we will get sometimes, “Upon entering control airspace, direct SBJ V30…” and of course sometimes we don’t.

My last flight gave me ZERO instructions other than AFed (which had SBJ V30 in it). This is where I feel joining V30 on departure makes the most sense. BUT, asking at least one N90 controller and speaking with my CFII (who flies a lot out of this airport) claim two left turns is the order of the day, i.e. DCT SBJ FIRST then on course….
 
Trogdor said:
BUT as you pointed out, that’s what we will get sometimes, “Upon entering control airspace, direct SBJ V30…” and of course sometimes we don’t.
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That’s the difference. If you’re told to go direct SBJ after you’ve climbed 700 feet, you overfly the VOR. If you’re not, passing the VOR on takeoff is good.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That’s the difference. If you’re told to go direct SBJ after you’ve climbed 700 feet, you overfly the VOR. If you’re not, passing the VOR on takeoff is good.
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I think this is pretty much what I think is the correct action (despite being corrected several times).
 
Larry in TN said:
If there was terrain there would be an ODP. The applicable AIM language has already been posted. ATC is only providing terrain separation when they are providing positive course guidance, i.e. vectors.
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There isn’t always an ODP. Only airports with IAP’s will get them. Agree a 100% with with you on when ATC does and does not accept responsibility for dodging the rocks
 
Trogdor said:
My last flight gave me ZERO instructions other than AFed (which had SBJ V30 in it).
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So what would you get if you left out SBJ in your flight plan? Also, is it possible what you are understanding in your clearance to be "SBJ" VOR, instead, you are really being cleared from the airport name of departure, i.e., a truncated version of "Solberg-Hunterdon Airport" (N51)?
 
Trogdor said:
I think this is pretty much what I think is the correct action (despite being corrected several times).
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So let them correct you. If they hear “that’s not how I understood my clearance” often enough, maybe they’ll give clearer clearances.
 
dtuuri said:
So what would you get if you left out SBJ in your flight plan? Also, is it possible what you are understanding in your clearance to be "SBJ" VOR, instead, you are really being cleared from the airport name of departure, i.e., a truncated version of "Solberg-Hunterdon Airport" (N51)?
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No on the second one for sure. SBJ and N51 are very different obviously, and I don’t think anyone is confusing the two.

I don’t know about leaving out SBJ and what would happen. My guess is a full route clearance. A corollary: When I was training for my instrument I would go to KABE a lot (everyone does!). If I filed:

SBJ V30 ETX

I would get a full route clearance like this:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX

What is the difference? Hint: Nothing.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So let them correct you. If they hear “that’s not how I understood my clearance” often enough, maybe they’ll give clearer clearances.
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I agree with that on principle at least.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That’s the difference. If you’re told to go direct SBJ after you’ve climbed 700 feet, you overfly the VOR. If you’re not, passing the VOR on takeoff is good.
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Do you have anything in writin’ on that? AIM, AC, IFH etc….something other than FB, POA, Reddit etc…..
 
Trogdor said:
If I filed:

SBJ V30 ETX

I would get a full route clearance like this:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX

What is the difference? Hint: Nothing.
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Is that in writing? I mean "SBJ V30 LANNA etc..." If it was an oral clearance it might have been meant as "KSBJ V30 LANNA etc..."

EDIT: I plugged it in Flight Aware's route analyzer and it came back as you say, so scratch that theory.
 
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dtuuri said:
Is that in writing? I mean "SBJ V30 LANNA etc..." If it was an oral clearance it might have been meant as "KSBJ V30 LANNA etc..."

EDIT: I plugged it in Flight Aware's route analyzer and it came back as you say, so scratch that theory.
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And as he notes, the airport is N51, not KSBJ.
 
Palmpilot said:
And as he notes, the airport is N51, not KSBJ.
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I should have put "KSBJ" in quotes, I guess, since it was meant to read as it sounds. Whatever, the FlightAware result could just reflect the way that recent pilot filed, maybe it was even the OP since I used KABE as the destination. I still say it's possible that garbage in equals garbage out.
 
Trogdor said:
I’m asking another N90 controller who originally said he wanted two lefts. Maybe we are just being told wrong. What’s getting me upset is the conflicting information I’m getting from a number of folks.

I agree, joining V30 makes the most logical sense and what I use to do during training.

I was originally told it had to do with a) lost comms and b) SBJ is “special” since four arrivals go through it into the Bravos (I’m not exactly sure why that matters).

At least I know that map wasn’t me! (I fly a bit straighter).
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It was so funny. I decided to check the airport in FlightAware to check history and see what people were doing. That flight was already in progress. The pic is from ADS-B Exchange which gives better display options.

i can understand your concern about the conflict. The only two area controllers who answered me - one retired, one current - were not looking for circling the airport. You apparently found one who was.

Beats me. Personally, I find the idea of circling in that situation - airport with instrument approaches, on field fix, diverse departure, no takeoff minimums, no ODP - ridiculous and I can't imagine doing it based solely on the clearance given.
 
Trogdor said:
No on the second one for sure. SBJ and N51 are very different obviously, and I don’t think anyone is confusing the two.

I don’t know about leaving out SBJ and what would happen. My guess is a full route clearance. A corollary: When I was training for my instrument I would go to KABE a lot (everyone does!). If I filed:

SBJ V30 ETX

I would get a full route clearance like this:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX

What is the difference? Hint: Nothing.
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I have a guess. I think it's been mentioned that one reason for naming SBJ is to have an initial fix in NY TRACON airspace. N51 is a border airport. The reason for LANNA might be the same - LANNA is in Allentown's but close to NY. There's some kind of a standard relationship between the two TRACON which leads to LANNA being included even though route-wise it's not necessary.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Now there’s a clearance… “upon entering controlled airspace, make two left turns…”
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The specific I would expect to hear would be more like, "upon entering controlled airspace, turn left heading XXX to YYYY feet before proceeding on course."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have a guess. I think it's been mentioned that one reason for naming SBJ is to have an initial fix in NY TRACON airspace. N51 is a border airport. The reason for LANNA might be the same - LANNA is in Allentown's but close to NY. There's some kind of a standard relationship between the two TRACON which leads to LANNA being included even though route-wise it's not necessary.
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Mark, it could indeed be more of an LoA thing. I think joining V30 is the most logical thing to do.

Btw, now you know why I was so scarred when I left LNS...
 
Palmpilot said:
The VCOA at N51 is only specified for aircraft that can't climb at 405' per NM to 1400. There is no specific departure course specified for aircraft that do meet that climb gradient.
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That's an old takeoff minimums. It's pre-VCOA because there is no statement to notify ATC. In any case, all four runways are diverse IFR departures. 3 of the 4 are nominal 200 feet per nm. Runway 31 is 405 feet per nm to 1,400 to use standard takeoff minimums. The alternative of 1300 and 2 1/2 has almost certainly not had VCOA criteria applied. Rather, it's just "you all be careful if you can't the climb gradient." Further, 13-31 doesn't meet departure criteria policy because it's a turf runway. 4-22 is questionable because only part of it is paved.
 
Note the airport has brand new runways! And soon taxiways.
 
aterpster said:
That's an old takeoff minimums. It's pre-VCOA because there is no statement to notify ATC. In any case, all four runways are diverse IFR departures. 3 of the 4 are nominal 200 feet per nm. Runway 31 is 405 feet per nm to 1,400 to use standard takeoff minimums. The alternative of 1300 and 2 1/2 has almost certainly not had VCOA criteria applied. Rather, it's just "you all be careful if you can't the climb gradient." Further, 13-31 doesn't meet departure criteria policy because it's a turf runway. 4-22 is questionable because only part of it is paved.
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So if an airport has an instrument approach published, but no departure routing specified, is that what tells the pilot that it's a diverse departure?
 
Palmpilot said:
So if an airport has an instrument approach published, but no departure routing specified, is that what tells the pilot that it's a diverse departure?
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Yes, provided there are published takeoff minimums for the runway.

KHTH is an interesting case study.
 
Palmpilot said:
So if an airport has an instrument approach published, but no departure routing specified, is that what tells the pilot that it's a diverse departure?
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That's my understanding.
 
aterpster said:
Yes, provided there are published takeoff minimums for the runway.

KHTH is an interesting case study.
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KHTH has a "not authorized" for ATC reasons for runways 8 and 13 and a VCOA for 10 and 28. What does that mean for obstacle clearance.

provided there are published takeoff minimums for the runway.
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I'm not sure I understand that part. Are you saying that there is no diverse departure from the other three runways because the word "standard" is not published?

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