That’s really taking liberties with the letter P. To say that if an airport/runway passes a diverse departure assessment, so therefore an Obstacle Departure Procedure need not be published, all runways now have an ODP.
Yeah. I had been reading back through and brought the cone up again in my post #74.
Yes, you are correct. If only takeoff minimums are established for a given runway, without either a prescribed track or climb gradient, that runway does not have a ODP. Having said that, nonetheless even with a diverse departure runway, you cannot turn below 400, afe. So, is that a procedure?
I dunno. Yeah, turning before 400’ is something you are never supposed to do. On a SID, an ODP, or if having been given a heading to fly in a Diverse Vector Area. But to call that a Procedure in the vein of ‘P’ as in IAP or ODP I think is kind of a reach.
Yes, of course that would be the clearance. But expecting backtracking makes absolutely no sense to me. You are at SBJ sitting on the ramp. If that is what ATC wants they must pull their hair out a lot. I can't imagine going up in the clouds and making a 360 over a VOR that can't be located before proceeding on course.
I believe we are in agreement.
I'm probably wrong, but it strikes me as one of those urban legends. Someone did something wrong, took the wrong lesson from it, and then passed it on.
Could we call it an airways legend?
New York Tracon.
I posted this on a pilot/controller forum. No controller response yet. One pilot who says he flies that route all the time and just intercepts the airway.
Will the various computers involved recognize the airport as a fix on V30?
There’s a Controller joke. How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb. 10. One to screw it in and nine to tell him he how should have done it differently. We’ve just kinda seen something like that. I’m assuming @Trogdor is telling the truth about his conversation with a current N90 Controller. The situation we’re talking about here, the Clearance that is N51 SBJ V30 has nothing to do with “…turning in the ‘pattern’” like that guy said. Neither is it climb in a 360 ‘circle’ right overhead the airport in the cone of confusion. It means the first element in the Clearance is SBJ. Unless specific Departure Instructions are given, you maneuver as necessary to comply with the Clearance.
That one has me scratching my head. Seems odd they wouldn’t have said KBWI if that is what they meant. The next example down is about Los Angeles and the airport and VOR are both LAX’s. And a clearance like that, departing with the first element of the Clearance being an airway, and that being a Jet Route just ain’t passing the logic check with me. Yes, the first element being an airway and you just depart and get yourself on the airway is a thing and was once not uncommon. But it actually being used nowadays I think would be real rarity. And I’m not sure the FAA’s computers would even accept it. @John Collins ? Will it accept an airway as the first element on a proposed from an airport Flight Plan.
I actually got that from one of the controllers in the FB thread. "Upon entering controlled airspace, direct SBJ V30..."
Why so? You can arrive on a jet route, so why not depart on one:
Yeah. Doesn't pass the logic check was a little harsh. I think there is some stuff about route structure transition though. When actually issuing the Clearance some more has to be said, like 'radials of J37' or sumpin like that.
You are on a runway at N51 when you depart. Yeah, SBJ is very close by. All the 4 miles either side of center line and +/- degrees of tolerance does not change the fact that if your Clearance is N51 SBJ V30, it's N51 SBJ V30. Not N51 V30. If you got violated, which I am sure would never happen. But lets play with the 'letter of the law' here just for the sake of discussion. You could try to play the I rolled right close by the VOR when I was taking off, maybe even rotated and was airborne by the time I was abeam it, card, so therefore I had already gone direct to SBJ before I even departed. I wouldn't try that.I actually got that from one of the controllers in the FB thread. "Upon entering controlled airspace, direct SBJ V30..."
I followed up with a practical question. Do you expect me to do A or B? No answer yet but I think that's where the confusion lies. The bottom line is you are at SBJ. Even if you weren't in the zone of confusion, you are passing less than 1/2 mile away from it - well within the tolerance of an up-to-6° off VOR receiver or a flyby GPS waypoint. Thinking it means a requirement to circle in the clouds so you can somehow do the impossible perfect pass over the exact center of the VOR is a complete misunderstanding. In fact, I doubt ATC's radar would be able to tell whether you passed exactly over it or not.
Yeah, it looked he was doin' it by the book and waited for the TO/FROM to flip. Ain't no law agin tucking it in that tight. You could also go out a few miles before turning back to SBJ. I might do it one way one day and another way another day. Would depend on all kinds of things. The plane I was flying, traffic, weather, ....
That’s basically the one clearance and/or release instructions where I would expect to maneuver back over the VOR…if controlled airspace starts at 700 feet and I just proceed on course after takeoff, I’d be flying away from SBJ.
So... you think the orange line makes sense and the yellow line passing within 2000' of the VOR is a violation of your clearance?
Where am I entering controlled airspace?
In the odd chance I was deviated, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever saying I was already at SBJ as I took off and proceeded on course. The one and only reason SBJ is the name of the VOR and not the airport is that N51 doesn't have the stuff necessary for the letter identifier and you need to define the airway.
I have no idea where that plane reached 700 AGL. But I'm not sure it makes a difference since on an IFR day, Id be turning on course closer to 400 AGL (no takeoff minimums or ODP for that runway). Remember that the reason for "upon entering controlled airspace" is ATC's lack of authority over uncontrolled airspace.
Cool. I'm just going to leave of with something I said above in post #57.
If my clearance was to enter controlled airspace direct to SBJ, I’d make a left 270-ish turn after takeoff from 13 rather than a right turn.
You mean like the 20 years I flew in Colorado? We're not talking about an ODP or even the 3 NM between KVUO and CBO. We're talking about an on field VOR.
Where is the 'letter of the law' that says you have to pass exactly over a VOR in order to be in compliance with a clearance that includes that VOR? I haven't seen one.
Ok, thanks. KVUO CBO ??
That isn’t what I meant. I was thinking it looked like he had VOR only and doing the TO/FROM must flip to ensure station passage thing. Yes, you can lead turns and ‘Flyby’ if you have the means to do so.
Yeah, that's a bit farther than 3 NM.
My take is that you don't need the flag to flip to determine your location relative to an on-field VOR during the takeoff roll. If you had to determine your location more precisely than that to avoid obstacles, they would have published a detailed departure procedure for planes that meet the climb gradient.