How to handle a Terminal VOR in a Clearance?

FWIW, as a somewhat newbie instrument pilot this was a good discussion for me to learn from.

Also, why is the East Texas (ETX) VOR in PA?? :confused:
 
aterpster said:
So, how would I know to do that absent knowledge of local folklore?
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They’d give you a phone number to call. ;)

but that’s the problem…as standardized as the Feds think things are, there’s still some unpublished local knowledge that is (unreasonably) expected. That, or it’s published so deeply that even the people who expect it have no idea where to look for it.
 
Trogdor said:
Great question. When you find out that answer, let me know as well.
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Maybe the reason is the way you and the others filed? If you're putting the VOR on the field as the first fix in your route and getting cleared "as filed", then yeah, you effed yourself.
 
dtuuri said:
Maybe the reason is the way you and the others filed? If you're putting the VOR on the field as the first fix in your route and getting cleared "as filed", then yeah, you effed yourself.
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No. You will always get SBJ.
 
Trogdor said:
No. You will always get SBJ.
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Then I'm misunderstanding. I understood you to say you get yelled at when you don't automatically go back to SBJ, i.e., when you didn't "get it" in your clearance.
 
luvflyin said:
Are you saying that after getting a Clearance that said LRP V39 that it doesn’t really mean that?? That it means join V39 somewhere other than LRP?
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LRP is on the field. You've already crossed it as you departed.
 
Trogdor said:
Do what you want. But I know what N90 wants when you depart N51. Like i said, this has been directly asked by many local pilots to New York Approach. And the answer is quiet clear: Go back to SBJ VOR after departure.
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Now you have me curious. Can you give me an example of a real clearance/departure instruction combination which would involve what is affectively a circle above the airport within the VOR cone of confusion before proceeding on course. Here's N51 SBJ V419 PIYIN KMMU for context. I can imagine how one would even accomplish this except for departing the airport to the northeast.

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midlifeflyer said:
Now you have me curious. Can you give me an example of a real clearance/departure instruction combination which would involve what is affectively a circle above the airport within the VOR cone of confusion before proceeding on course. Here's N51 SBJ V419 PIYIN KMMU for context. I can imagine how one would even accomplish this except for departing the airport to the northeast.

View attachment 107146
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Within the cone of confusion!! Who said anything about that? Of course not.
 
Trogdor said:
So this happened, and I'm not sure if what I did was right or wrong (definitely safe though so I'm not that upset).

Flying out of KLNS I filed the following:

DCT LRP V39.ETX V30.LANNA SBJ DCT

And got that. I was departing RWY 13 (flying back East).

Question: On departure, when you check-in, where ya heading? Can you make the case that you passed the LRP terminal VOR on KLNS at the time of take off or do you circle back to LRP until Departure tells you to join V39 or gives you DIRECT ETX?

My answer was circle back to LRP.

I can tell you flying out of my home airport of N51, N90 definitely expects you to circle back to the SBJ VOR which is typically the first fix on many clearances going West. They always want the first fix to be in their airspace in case you loose comms as well as for traffic coordination (SBJ is used on no less than four different arrivals into the Big Apple Bravos & Friends (like KTEB)).

Footnote: I didn't actually fly to LRP. I wound up asking READING Departure if I could get DIRECT BOYER to join V39 which they granted me and that was that. No big deal whatsoever and the flight was uneventful.
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I am just an old school VOR guy, but I always file for the route I like and I like simple. I would have filed ETX V30 SBJ. If ATC doesn't like it, they can give me a different routing in the clearance.

There was no reason to file LRP, V39, or Lanna. Even if your RNAV failed, ETX is within the 40 NM VOR service for direct and Lanna is a fix as part of V30-405 and did not need to be in your routing.
 
luvflyin said:
Crossed?? They don’t put those things on runways.:goofy: But let’s play. He did an intersection departure on 8 from H.
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You probably cross it closer taking off at LRP than at 7,000 feet using actual VOR navigation.
 
Trogdor said:
Correct. Most of the folks on this thread would probably just join V30 via R-274 off of SBJ if they were headed West. And you would be wrong to do so. Many pilots (including myself) have had discussions with N90 and they do expect you to do a 180 if need be depending on traffic requirements.


This is actually the ROOT of my confusion and why I had to ask READING for DIRECT BOYER to just get me on my way on a defined path. My expectation BIAS was pretty darn obvious - I was heading to LRP no matter what.

What I should have done is just join the V39 segment since the leg was activated. But when I went through it (for all about 10s), I asked READING and then turned back and life was good. Again, in the end, no big deal. I just feel stupid now. But I did have the courage to ask and i do feel that's being a good PIC.

I also understand that when I look at routes, I need to get the "spirit of the route" or "gist of the direction I'm going" not just look at it from a point to point perspective if that makes sense (this is probably even more so on a SID or ODP).

The issue with N51 and SBJ is that the next fix is out of New York airspace (typically LANNA if you are heading West). As a result, they want to radar identify you within N90 since SBJ is toward the edge of their airspace and hence why they want you to potentially circle back.

I say 'potentially" because depending on when you make say your two lefts toward SBJ off of 22 will dictate how far you "backtrack" - typically when they radar identify you they will have you join V30 or DIRECT LANNA. But there have been times were folks really do had to pass over SBJ and circle back.
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That after you departed, then asked Reading about it and they then gave you clearance to just join V39, does not change the fact that until then, your last Clearance received was LRP V39. If you think that means just join the airway somewhere along the first segment after the VOR, I would recommend you realign your thinking before flying in areas of steeply rising terrain.
 
luvflyin said:
That after you departed, then asked Reading about it and they then gave you clearance to just join V39, does not change the fact that until then, your last Clearance received was LRP V39. If you think that means just join the airway somewhere along the first segment after the VOR, I would recommend you realign your thinking before flying in areas of steeply rising terrain.
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An ODP is an ODP, whether diverse or specified route, it should be flown.
 
luvflyin said:
Crossed?? They don’t put those things on runways.:goofy: But let’s play. He did an intersection departure on 8 from H.
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What Wally said.

How close do you think you get to a VOR when you fly over it? How close do you think ATC wants you to be to it? How wide is the airway over the VOR?

See the Fly-by vs. Fly-over waypoint description in the AIM.

MauleSkinner said:
An ODP is an ODP, whether diverse or specified route, it should be flown.
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Didn't the ODP for the runway in question simply mention the applicable obstacles and no give any specific routing?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Now you have me curious. Can you give me an example of a real clearance/departure instruction combination which would involve what is affectively a circle above the airport within the VOR cone of confusion before proceeding on course. Here's N51 SBJ V419 PIYIN KMMU for context. I can imagine how one would even accomplish this except for departing the airport to the northeast.

View attachment 107146
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@midlifeflyer (Mark), if you file N51 - KABE (which is very popular because of DPEs), you will get in your clearance:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX DCT

Use GP or FF to verify.

Majority of departures are going to 22 (read: westerlies).

N90 will be expecting you to depart and make probably two left turns toward the SBJ VOR not join V30 immediately (which you can clearly do by joining R-274). They want you to head to a fix that is in their airspace, not Allentown's (KABE). As a result, when you check in with departure, they will ask you to join V30 or DIRECT LANNA but there have been n a few cases where folks had to go to SBJ first, i.e. backtrack. How do I know this? Talking to local pilots about it as well as talking to a NY controller directly.
 
Trogdor said:
@midlifeflyer (Mark), if you file N51 - KABE (which is very popular because of DPEs), you will get in your clearance:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX DCT

Use GP or FF to verify.

Majority of departures are going to 22 (read: westerlies).

N90 will be expecting you to depart and make probably two left turns toward the SBJ VOR not join V30 immediately (which you can clearly do by joining R-274). They want you to head to a fix that is in their airspace, not Allentown's (KABE). As a result, when you check in with departure, they will ask you to join V30 or DIRECT LANNA but there have been n a few cases where folks had to go to SBJ first, i.e. backtrack. How do I know this? Talking to local pilots about it as well as talking to a NY controller directly.
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So are you assigned a heading on takeoff, or “on course”?
 
MauleSkinner said:
So are you assigned a heading on takeoff, or “on course”?
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Typically, they will tell you to join V30 or DIRECT LANNA. I typically get DIRECT LANNA and then handed off to KABE a few minutes later.
 
Trogdor said:
Typically, they will tell you to join V30 or DIRECT LANNA. I typically get DIRECT LANNA and then handed off to KABE a few minutes later.
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If they give you direct LANNA, turning back to SBJ is absolutely wrong.

edit: I suspect we’re talking past each other. Does Tower say “proceed Direct LANNA, cleared for takeoff” or “join V30, cleared for takeoff”?
 
Fly in and out of Lancaster on occasion. I have never used LRP as a fix when departing or arriving. From the south it’s PADRE, if I was flying the OP’s route it would have been BOYER ETX

This also applies to my many flights to and from ILG from OXB. I do not use DQO located on the field at ILG, instead ENO to the south, coming and going.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If they give you direct LANNA, turning back to SBJ is absolutely wrong.

edit: I suspect we’re talking past each other. Does Tower say “proceed Direct LANNA, cleared for takeoff”?
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There is no tower. That's the mistake you are making. The question is at 400AGL in IMC are you joining V30 or circling back to SBJ? Reason would say, join V30 and check in with departure.

The answer as I was told by many pilots as well as an N90 controller himself, you are circling back to the SBJ until told otherwise.

Many local pilots DELAY check-in because of this. They wound up making two left turns toward SBJ first and then check in since it puts them in a position to do whatever N90 wants us to do.

Btw, I'm the messenger here. And btw Maule, you can see now why i was a little confused (or scarred) regarding the LRP clearance out of LNS.
 
I think this question falls solidly in the realm of the reasonable man theory. In which case, I believe a reasonable man/woman would join the V30 and go about his/her merry way. As it is less safe to conduct a 180 (+) degree turn after take-off in IMC than it is to simply turn on course. :)
 
Trogdor said:
There is no tower. That's the mistake you are making. The question is at 400AGL in IMC are you joining V30 or circling back to SBJ? Reason would say, join V30 and check in with departure.

The answer as I was told by many pilots as well as an N90 controller himself, you are circling back to the SBJ until told otherwise.

Many local pilots DELAY check-in because of this. They wound up making two left turns toward SBJ first and then check in since it puts them in a position to do whatever N90 wants us to do.

Btw, I'm the messenger here. And btw Maule, you can see now why i was a little confused (or scarred) regarding the LRP clearance out of LNS.
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Ok…so does your release include “enter controlled airspace…”?
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Should. But not required unless assigned(far 91). He said he was simply CAF. Not assigned the ODP. @Trogdor ? We’re you doing the ODP? I’m talking the KLNS departure.
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The ODP at KLNS is just a diverse departure…if he didn’t crash, he was flying the ODP.
 
STOL airplane will allow you to climb to altitude (or was it 400 ft, from another thread about a year ago) and just turn at the VOR. :D

Sorry, didn’t have anything more intelligent to add to this topic.
 
luvflyin said:
That after you departed, then asked Reading about it and they then gave you clearance to just join V39, does not change the fact that until then, your last Clearance received was LRP V39. If you think that means just join the airway somewhere along the first segment after the VOR, I would recommend you realign your thinking before flying in areas of steeply rising terrain.
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Didn't the instruction to turn left and proceed on course have the effect of altering his cleared route? Returning to the VOR after the left turn would have made some kind of uncharted course reversal necessary, and then another uncharted course reversal to get established outbound again. The alternative of establishing a reasonable intercept course out of the left turn would have been easy, even for a /U aircraft.

In the midst of steeply rising terrain the ODP will be much more specific than the one at LNS!
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Now you have me curious. Can you give me an example of a real clearance/departure instruction combination which would involve what is affectively a circle above the airport within the VOR cone of confusion before proceeding on course. Here's N51 SBJ V419 PIYIN KMMU for context. I can imagine how one would even accomplish this except for departing the airport to the northeast.

View attachment 107146
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On the cone of confusion thing again. You could be climbing within the cone on this one. The ODP is a VCOA and SBJ is pretty close, like on the airport close. So yeah, you’d probably be in the cone.
 
Back before the NDB on the field was decommissioned, I used it as the initial fix on my route to indicate I would use it for positive route guidance outbound to the next fix, also an NDB (LOM) in order to get into the enroute system.

I never once had the routing questioned and the departure control folks knew where I was going.
 
Departing that runway, Eastbound, you're closer, laterally, to the VOR, than most pilots that cross it from the air, I would believe.

Enough that you can checkmark it while you're bringing the wheels up.
 
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