How to handle a Terminal VOR in a Clearance?

Trogdor

Trogdor

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Trogdor
So this happened, and I'm not sure if what I did was right or wrong (definitely safe though so I'm not that upset).

Flying out of KLNS I filed the following:

DCT LRP V39.ETX V30.LANNA SBJ DCT

And got that. I was departing RWY 13 (flying back East).

Question: On departure, when you check-in, where ya heading? Can you make the case that you passed the LRP terminal VOR on KLNS at the time of take off or do you circle back to LRP until Departure tells you to join V39 or gives you DIRECT ETX?

My answer was circle back to LRP.

I can tell you flying out of my home airport of N51, N90 definitely expects you to circle back to the SBJ VOR which is typically the first fix on many clearances going West. They always want the first fix to be in their airspace in case you loose comms as well as for traffic coordination (SBJ is used on no less than four different arrivals into the Big Apple Bravos & Friends (like KTEB)).

Footnote: I didn't actually fly to LRP. I wound up asking READING Departure if I could get DIRECT BOYER to join V39 which they granted me and that was that. No big deal whatsoever and the flight was uneventful.
 
They’re expecting you to join V39 after takeoff. They have to give you a point on the airway in your clearance, so they give you the VOR that’s on the field, knowing that it will be behind you when you takeoff. They’re not expecting you to circle back.
 
That makes no sense to me. BOYER is right there if that was the case.

And again, in my home airport I get:

SBJ V30.LANNA

all the time. You take off and you don't join R-274 (V30). I know many have done that and have gotten a mouth full from N90. So now I'm really confused.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's assuming you don't have RNAV capability, so you can't go direct BOYER. You have to intercept to get there.

What was your takeoff instruction?
Click to expand...

Turn left proceed on course.
 
Trogdor said:
So this happened, and I'm not sure if what I did was right or wrong (definitely safe though so I'm not that upset).

Flying out of KLNS I filed the following:

DCT LRP V39.ETX V30.LANNA SBJ DCT

And got that. I was departing RWY 13 (flying back East).

Question: On departure, when you check-in, where ya heading? Can you make the case that you passed the LRP terminal VOR on KLNS at the time of take off or do you circle back to LRP until Departure tells you to join V39 or gives you DIRECT ETX?

My answer was circle back to LRP.

I can tell you flying out of my home airport of N51, N90 definitely expects you to circle back to the SBJ VOR which is typically the first fix on many clearances going West. They always want the first fix to be in their airspace in case you loose comms as well as for traffic coordination (SBJ is used on no less than four different arrivals into the Big Apple Bravos & Friends (like KTEB)).

Footnote: I didn't actually fly to LRP. I wound up asking READING Departure if I could get DIRECT BOYER to join V39 which they granted me and that was that. No big deal whatsoever and the flight was uneventful.
Click to expand...


Circling back to the VOR on the field makes no sense. Departure instruction should have stated something about how to join V39. If they didn't say, I would ask what heading they want me on to intercept V39.
 
And that is what has me confused now. I agree joining V39 is obvious and easy. But I didn't get any instructions to do so.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's assuming you don't have RNAV capability, so you can't go direct BOYER. You have to intercept to get there.

What was your takeoff instruction?
Click to expand...

Ok, but I filed /G. I guess I just over thought it. BOYER would have clearer to me at least. Well, now I know.
 
Trogdor said:
EDIT: Oh, i see what you are referring too. Ok, maybe. Left is kinda vague but OK.
Click to expand...
Vague means that the finer details don't matter. If they did, the clearance would have been more specific. Turn left and join your route. If there is a close-in fix, go direct to that to join.
 
55B6BDDF-0AC7-4316-802F-92839B2B42BF.jpeg

Seems like a pretty boneheaded move and potentially dangerous. IFR is about predictably doing what you’re expected to do and you did a circle-back?

Who should have expected this from you when you had a clearance matched to your capabilities.

If you were unclear, you should have asked. I’m actually surprised you didn’t get a phone number.
 
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Rgbeard said:
Seems like a pretty boneheaded move and potentially dangerous. IFR is about predictably doing what you’re expected to do and you did a circle-back?

Who should have expected this from you when you had a clearance matched to your capabilities.

If you were unclear, you should have asked. I’m actually surprised you didn’t get a phone number.
Click to expand...
Double check his OP…sounds like he didn’t circle back and did ask.

Asking prior to takeoff would probably be better, but I don’t expect everyone to be as perfect as me. :rolleyes:
 
Rgbeard said:
View attachment 107117

Seems like a pretty boneheaded move and potentially dangerous. IFR is about predictably doing what you’re expected to do and you did a circle-back?

Who should have expected this from you when you had a clearance matched to your capabilities.

If you were unclear, you should have asked. I’m actually surprised you didn’t get a phone number.
Click to expand...

He said he didn't do it.
 
Trogdor said:
So this happened, and I'm not sure if what I did was right or wrong (definitely safe though so I'm not that upset).

Flying out of KLNS I filed the following:

DCT LRP V39.ETX V30.LANNA SBJ DCT

And got that. I was departing RWY 13 (flying back East).

Question: On departure, when you check-in, where ya heading? Can you make the case that you passed the LRP terminal VOR on KLNS at the time of take off or do you circle back to LRP until Departure tells you to join V39 or gives you DIRECT ETX?

My answer was circle back to LRP.

I can tell you flying out of my home airport of N51, N90 definitely expects you to circle back to the SBJ VOR which is typically the first fix on many clearances going West. They always want the first fix to be in their airspace in case you loose comms as well as for traffic coordination (SBJ is used on no less than four different arrivals into the Big Apple Bravos & Friends (like KTEB)).

Footnote: I didn't actually fly to LRP. I wound up asking READING Departure if I could get DIRECT BOYER to join V39 which they granted me and that was that. No big deal whatsoever and the flight was uneventful.
Click to expand...
You said what you filed and ‘got that.’ What exactly did they say when they gave you the Clearance?
 
Rgbeard said:
View attachment 107117

Seems like a pretty boneheaded move and potentially dangerous. IFR is about predictably doing what you’re expected to do and you did a circle-back?

Who should have expected this from you when you had a clearance matched to your capabilities.

If you were unclear, you should have asked. I’m actually surprised you didn’t get a phone number.
Click to expand...

Learn to read. I didn't do that. I just asked and joined V39.
 
I think it would have been a bit more precise if tower said turn left join V39 but I understand now my misunderstanding.
 
Trogdor said:
I think it would have been a bit more precise if tower said turn left join V39 but I understand now my misunderstanding.
Click to expand...
Y'know, an airway is 8 miles wide and you started smack in the middle of it. No need to "intercept" "it". In my day, I'd have filed by phone and said, "Via Victor 39 East Texas, Victor 30...etc." Then, let FSS talk to the computer. :p
 
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Plano Pilot said:
Who is the bonehead now?:) I am trying to inject some humor, not get you mad.

Truthfully, if pilots asking questions were not attacked and instead given advice. More people would ask questions and learn.
Click to expand...

oh I agree it’s funny. I’m laughing. I failed at reading the full text and presumed he actually did this! My skin is too thick to get irritated over this.

Seems the OP may differ, tho.
 
Trogdor said:
So this happened, and I'm not sure if what I did was right or wrong (definitely safe though so I'm not that upset).

Flying out of KLNS I filed the following:

DCT LRP V39.ETX V30.LANNA SBJ DCT

And got that. I was departing RWY 13 (flying back East).

Question: On departure, when you check-in, where ya heading? Can you make the case that you passed the LRP terminal VOR on KLNS at the time of take off or do you circle back to LRP until Departure tells you to join V39 or gives you DIRECT ETX?

My answer was circle back to LRP.

I can tell you flying out of my home airport of N51, N90 definitely expects you to circle back to the SBJ VOR which is typically the first fix on many clearances going West. They always want the first fix to be in their airspace in case you loose comms as well as for traffic coordination (SBJ is used on no less than four different arrivals into the Big Apple Bravos & Friends (like KTEB)).

Footnote: I didn't actually fly to LRP. I wound up asking READING Departure if I could get DIRECT BOYER to join V39 which they granted me and that was that. No big deal whatsoever and the flight was uneventful.
Click to expand...


I am curious about what you said regarding N51. When departing from Runway 22 to join V3, are you saying that approach expects you to make a 180 back to the VOR and then make another 180 back on course?
 
Trogdor said:
Turn left proceed on course.
Click to expand...
I think this is somewhat similar to the instruction to proceed on course after a vector for traffic. We get a whole bunch of overthought discussion on that one.

In both cases it really just means, "join (or rejoin) your course in a reasonable way." If they need something more specific than that, they'll give you a heading to join. At most, all it needs is a readback of what you plan to do.
 
I finally took the time to import the path into GP.

everything seems straightforward to me.

it was my first ever look at this particular airport. Wow! You definitely have some approaches available into that airport. Color me green with envy. On top of that you have a VOR right at the field. Nice!
 
Rgbeard said:
I finally took the time to import the path into GP.

everything seems straightforward to me.

it was my first ever look at this particular airport. Wow! You definitely have some approaches available into that airport. Color me green with envy. On top of that you have a VOR right at the field. Nice!
Click to expand...
And a nice restaurant to boot! It stayed open almost straight through the Plague. They have outdoor seating and set up propane heaters. We were up there once when there was snow creeping under the tent walls. It was cold, but very fun. One of my favorite destinations.
 
Rgbeard said:
I finally took the time to import the path into GP.

everything seems straightforward to me.

it was my first ever look at this particular airport. Wow! You definitely have some approaches available into that airport. Color me green with envy. On top of that you have a VOR right at the field. Nice!
Click to expand...
And a nice restaurant to boot! It stayed open almost straight through the Plague. They have outdoor seating and set up propane heaters. We were up there once when there was snow creeping under the tent walls. It was cold, but very fun. One of my favorite destinations.
 
Plano Pilot said:
Truthfully, if pilots asking questions were not attacked and instead given advice. More people would ask questions and learn.
Click to expand...

Yes.

It’s hard for most folks to get up the nerve to ask an honest question when they see the outcome will be getting called a bonehead.
 
Trogdor said:
And that is what has me confused now. I agree joining V39 is obvious and easy. But I didn't get any instructions to do so.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that after getting a Clearance that said LRP V39 that it doesn’t really mean that?? That it means join V39 somewhere other than LRP?
 
sarangan said:
I am curious about what you said regarding N51. When departing from Runway 22 to join V3, are you saying that approach expects you to make a 180 back to the VOR and then make another 180 back on course?
Click to expand...

Correct. Most of the folks on this thread would probably just join V30 via R-274 off of SBJ if they were headed West. And you would be wrong to do so. Many pilots (including myself) have had discussions with N90 and they do expect you to do a 180 if need be depending on traffic requirements.


This is actually the ROOT of my confusion and why I had to ask READING for DIRECT BOYER to just get me on my way on a defined path. My expectation BIAS was pretty darn obvious - I was heading to LRP no matter what.

What I should have done is just join the V39 segment since the leg was activated. But when I went through it (for all about 10s), I asked READING and then turned back and life was good. Again, in the end, no big deal. I just feel stupid now. But I did have the courage to ask and i do feel that's being a good PIC.

I also understand that when I look at routes, I need to get the "spirit of the route" or "gist of the direction I'm going" not just look at it from a point to point perspective if that makes sense (this is probably even more so on a SID or ODP).

The issue with N51 and SBJ is that the next fix is out of New York airspace (typically LANNA if you are heading West). As a result, they want to radar identify you within N90 since SBJ is toward the edge of their airspace and hence why they want you to potentially circle back.

I say 'potentially" because depending on when you make say your two lefts toward SBJ off of 22 will dictate how far you "backtrack" - typically when they radar identify you they will have you join V30 or DIRECT LANNA. But there have been times were folks really do had to pass over SBJ and circle back.
 
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luvflyin said:
Are you saying that after getting a Clearance that said LRP V39 that it doesn’t really mean that?? That it means join V39 somewhere other than LRP?
Click to expand...

That is exactly what it means. LRP is unfortunately the closest fix on that Victor from where i am located. Frankly, BOYER is far clearer to me for /G as an initial fix. My goal is quite clear then. But as @midlifeflyer astutely pointed out, that doesn't help /A or /U. I get it but still...

What that clearance really meant was: On departure, between LRP and BOYER join V39. That's it.

In the end, I DID THAT. I just had to ask for it which was redundant and made me look like an ass.
 
Trogdor said:
I say 'potentially" because depending on when you make say your two lefts toward SBJ off of 22 will dictate how far you "backtrack" - typically when they radar identify you they will have you join V30 or DIRECT LANNA. But there have been times were folks really do had to pass over SBJ and circle back.
Click to expand...
I would never circle back anywhere in the system absent a very specific ATC instruction.
 
Trogdor said:
I just feel stupid now. But I did have the courage to ask and i do feel that's being a good PIC.
Click to expand...
One of my Mexican clients told me they have a saying…something to the effect of “better to be stupid for a minute than for a lifetime.”
 
aterpster said:
I would never circle back anywhere in the system absent a very specific ATC instruction.
Click to expand...

Do what you want. But I know what N90 wants when you depart N51. Like i said, this has been directly asked by many local pilots to New York Approach. And the answer is quiet clear: Go back to SBJ VOR after departure.
 
MauleSkinner said:
One of my Mexican clients told me they have a saying…something to the effect of “better to be stupid for a minute than for a lifetime.”
Click to expand...

I'm living proof. Well, the upside here is thanks to all of you, I did learn a few things (more about myself than anything related to flying).
 
Trogdor said:
Do what you want. But I know what N90 wants when you depart N51. Like i said, this has been directly asked by many local pilots to New York Approach. And the answer is quiet clear: Go back to SBJ VOR after departure.
Click to expand...
So, how would I know to do that absent knowledge of local folklore?
 
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