How to get 15 hours one one tank

tsts4 said:
It's BS. Pilots that get into trouble base to final ignore basic airmanship. All the bells and whistles in the world won't fix that. AOA is addressing the symptom and not the cause.
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And what's wrong with that? Just like driving, we all know to drive the speed limit. How many do perfectly all the time?
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
And what's wrong with that? Just like driving, we all know to drive the speed limit. How many do perfectly all the time?
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Oh, maui wowie, you screwed up big time now... speeding, and the defense of speeding, is a HUGE thing on PoA. It may even be the last straw.
:popcorn:
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
The AoA is on top of the dash, not in the panel. It's the only unit that is in the field of view.
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This is all you have to say? Wow. What about looking out the window first, second and fourth and a the stuff inside the cockpit only fifth?
I really, really like Cirrus. Some of the pilots and CFIs however make me really, really not want to join this group. :confused:


Maui Cirrus CFII said:
Agreed. It's about reducing fatalities in the base to final turn. Read my post about the FAA initiative.
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Right. Chase the blue donut and forget everything else certainly helps with that. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong - AOA indicators are great in a limited number of scenarios. The sole dependence on this thing, that you are teaching, in IMHO however pretty dangerous.
 
tsts4 said:
And no instrument is going to fix that.
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Exactly.

Out of curiosity, I took a look through my logbooks and took the time to compute the percentage of my flights that ended in fatal stall/spins. Surprisingly, over 40 years it was 0%!

I wonder if that rate is typical of pilots posting here. Maybe I should start a poll.

I know that pride goeth before a fall, but my point is that the vast, vast majority of pilots have never, and likely will never, need an AOA indicator in their planes to prevent them from a fatal stall/spin. Certainly any attempt at increasing safety is a laudable thing, but just throwing money at another gadget may or may not be the best way to accomplish that.
 
FastEddieB said:
I've held back, but my one word impression of AOA indicators for GA aircraft: unnecessary.
[...]
Maybe some pilots "need" an AOA indicator to fly safely. I don't.
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Need is a strong word - but I'll give you that one. I love AOA in GA and I've been a proponent for a long time; however, I was taught how to use them by people who understood the prinicples behind them.

I too wish the weather was better in Maui, but it looks like a great time for some actual.

Nauga,
PHOGGed in
 
Dang man, never seen such a pile on since the "cooling the engine with water" dude. At least AOA sales guy is contributing something tangible, even if controversial. You guys need to get out and fly... dude in the Shining movie went nuts being cooped up too long in the winter.
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
You bring up an excellent point again.
Actually (and I plan on making this in one of my upcoming videos) is that if you land with the blue donut you get a much softer and "perfect" landing. No need to flare with a large pitch.

Here is the physics behind it.

When at blue donut (peak AoA) it's min drag. Once you start yanking back in the flare (with the stall horn blaring) you are now on the opposite side of the drag curve and thus your induced drag increases, making for a more firm or harder landing.

It can only be experienced with the unit. I have probably 1,000 landings with the AoA versus 10,000 landings without it. And by golly I am a convert.
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This can't be true. There is a whole range of possible vertical speeds at minimum drag, corresponding to every possible throttle position and flap position. Power off and clean in a 172, that's 500 FPM and 65 knots (best glide), FAR too steep and fast for a smooth landing. In fact, it's the best configuration for a bounce. The plane will "want" to fly the most and float the longest.

You can trade drag for speed, while increasing lift. That's what a flare is. It is, by design, a high drag configuration, but it is also high lift, as max lift occurs right before the stall.

Why would you ever want to be in a low drag configuration at touchdown?
 
Give the guy a break. He's promoting them in general as a means to increase safety - which they certainly do. Maui is dead on right. AOA is the cure for most of the fatal low level spins, base to turn stalls, skidded turn flips etc. We should have hitched our wagon to AoA decades ago and not to airspeed.
 
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I'm just waiting with my popcorn for the video of him piling a cirrus into the runway chasing his donut all the way down.

It'll be like why everyone watches nascar
 
stratobee said:
AOA is the cure for most of the fatal low level spins, base to turn stalls, skidded turn flips etc.
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Don't think I agree.

On a typical base to final turn I'm generally looking at the runway to help judge the turn, with possible glances at the airspeed indicator or back at final for traffic. If a pilot is badly skidding that turn as a setup to a stall/spin, and ignoring his or her airspeed, yet another display inside the cockpit may or may not help.

It may be a valuable addition, and I'm keeping an open mind as to it's worth. But a "cure"? No way.
 
James331 said:
I'm just waiting with my popcorn for the video of him piling a cirrus into the runway chasing his donut all the way down.

It'll be like why everyone watches nascar
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Oh he'll be able to land it but it'll be faster than a normal landing where you're trading AS for an increase in AOA. It's going to float more down the runway as well. Whether or not it's smooth or not is moot. Landing soft has more to do with sight picture than maintaining an optimal approach speed all the way to touchdown.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Dang man, never seen such a pile on since the "cooling the engine with water" dude.
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I agree, skip to next thread if you aren't interested. I'm not low time, but enjoy all things aviation. Heck, went to an FAA safety seminar a couple of weeks ago and first topic was mountain flying ... we do a lot of that here in my area
 
stratobee said:
Give the guy a break. He's promoting them in general as a means to increase safety - which they certainly do. Maui is dead on right. AOA is the cure for most of the fatal low level spins, base to turn stalls, skidded turn flips etc. We should have hitched our wagon to AoA decades ago and not to airspeed.
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The problem is not that he posted about AOAs. The problem is that he started six threads about them in a short period of time, many of which should have been started in the Classifieds section because he sells them. It's borderline spam. Why he would want to antagonize all the potential customers here is beyond me.
 
I'm still waiting to see how I can fly 15 hours in just one tank. My Owners Manual shows max endurance of 7:45 using both tanks . . .
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
I'm loving the adult conversation we are having now.

To answer your question I pose a rhetorical. What is the stall speed of your aircraft with full flaps at 45 and 60 deg of bank. Quick , don't look in a book.

Second, airspeed is in the dash. AoA is on the dash in field of view. There is an aural warning if you get to slow before you hear the stall horn.

Third, sure we are not flying high performance fighters. But, AoA is independent of weight, or any other condition. It's precisely telling you where you are in the lift curve.

Thus airspeed settings (white arc, red arc) are for 1g. I've seen in turbulence at 130 knots the indicator turn yellow.

Again it's telling you if there is imminent threat to loss of control.

So let's address the Asiana. And for that matter Air France 447 and finally Sully.

If the Asiana pilot had AoA (not stall stick shaker when it was too late) and an aural warning if "too slow" he may have had a different outcome.

In the Air France they clearly had lot of airspeed and altitude. Yet the pilot was pulling up (great documentary on YouTube ) and again had he been trained using AoA (like the military) he would know get the nose down no matter what the airspeed says. (He was near red line)

Finally good ol Sully. Trained using AoA. And the US Air fleet had AoA on board ! It's actually a green donut on the airspeed indicator. This bought him time to make a decision. Bravo!

Remember private pilot 101. An aircraft can stall at any speed. But always the same critical angle of Attack.
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Actually the Asiana crash might not have happened if they understood how the autothrottle worked and they turned it off.

And the Air France there was a pilot in the other seat giving the correct commands to the yoke. The opposing commands put it into a some kind of funk or alternate law that Airbus hadn't planned on before that accident.

And finally Sully deviated from SOP and kicked the APU on immediately even though its at the bottom of the checklist.

These are all important facts to these accidents. Cherry picking the data to follow your AoA isn't going to win your argument.
 
Everskyward said:
The problem is not that he posted about AOAs. The problem is that he started six threads about them in a short period of time, many of which should have been started in the Classifieds section because he sells them. It's borderline spam. Why he would want to antagonize all the potential customers here is beyond me.
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Even if he did not sell them they would still be spam because of the blatant self-promotion.
 
stratobee said:
Give the guy a break. He's promoting them in general as a means to increase safety - which they certainly do. Maui is dead on right. AOA is the cure for most of the fatal low level spins, base to turn stalls, skidded turn flips etc. We should have hitched our wagon to AoA decades ago and not to airspeed.
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Amen thank you
 
Wouldn't you have to be under 30% power to get that time out of a full tank in a 300HP cirrus, at 30% that's like 90hp, not sure 90hp would keep a full fuel one person cirrus aloft without some natural lifting action helping.
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
The APU didn't give him peak AoA.
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exactly, he flew the wing first and foremost.

You are right Air France had the alternate law problem. But if both pilots had been given the command to fly AoA then maybe I say maybe it would be different.
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One flew the right way without AoA.

Asiana again auto throttle or not he got too slow. Thus increased AoA above critical.
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You don't seem to understand what happened here. The lack of understanding the autothrottle was a major factor here not AoA. AoA was an effect not a cause.
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
This was for the cirrus. The idea is peak AoA and lean of peak. The speed will be somewhere between Vx and Vy. Max endurance.
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Even in the Cirrus you're talking 42gal / 15 h = 2.8gph and is equally 'questionable' And if your adventure started anytime after you were using a more 'normal' burn rate you'd have no chance of achieving the claim.

Note: Your title says "15 hours on one tank." Both tanks full seems to be 84gal which would be 5.6 gph and is a similarly unlikely claim
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
The idea is peak AoA and lean of peak. The speed will be somewhere between Vx and Vy. Max endurance.
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You've used the term "peak AoA" to refer to AOA for max endurance, AOA for L/Dmax (they are the same for a jet but not for a recip), and approach AOA (which I understand you to say should be at L/Dmax but I'm not sure). None of these angles of attack are near a 'peak'. What does that term really mean to you and why did you choose it?

Nauga,
whose interest is piqued
 
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nauga said:
You've used the term "peak AoA" to refer to AOA for max endurance, AOA for L/Dmax (they are the same for a jet but not for a recip), and approach AOA (which I understand you to say should be at L/Dmax but I'm not sure). None of these angles of attack are near a 'peak'. What does that term really mean to you and why did you choose it?

Nauga,
whose interest is piqued
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I must have missed it, but all I saw was a minimum drag assertion.
 
jaybee said:
And the Air France there was a pilot in the other seat giving the correct commands to the yoke. The opposing commands put it into a some kind of funk or alternate law that Airbus hadn't planned on before that accident.
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The 'bus did exactly what the manual said it would with conflicting control inputs. Had the other pilot pressed the sidestick priority button, they would probably still be alive.
 
James331 said:
Wouldn't you have to be under 30% power to get that time out of a full tank in a 300HP cirrus, at 30% that's like 90hp, not sure 90hp would keep a full fuel one person cirrus aloft without some natural lifting action helping.
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I was at 19% given the weight.
 
From the recent FAA Handbook on instrument flying.
 

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And this. Great slide on where the blue donut is (max l/d) versus just max lift (red zone)
 

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Maui Cirrus CFII said:
The idea is peak AoA and lean of peak. [...] Max endurance.
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Maui Cirrus CFII said:
Used interchangeably. It is max l/d.
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Max *range* for a propeller-driven airplane is at min drag AKA L/Dmax (and the associated AOA), not max endurance. It's even given to you in the link you posted, Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators (not 'The US Navy Aerodynamics Manual') , on p162 fig 2.24.

As for approaching at that AOA, that's also a matter of flight path stability and handling qualities. YMMV, but please flare your Cirrus.

Nauga,
and L. C. Breguet
 
Maui Cirrus CFII said:
And this. Great slide on where the blue donut is (max l/d) versus just max lift (red zone)
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Nothing in any of the material you've posted that was written by anyone but you says anything about approaching (i.e. your "blue donut") at "max l/d"

Nauga,
HCDIC-OWO
 
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