How to find cheap flight instruction?

SkyDog58 said:
Wasn't the T-41 that the USAF used for primary training basically a 210 HP 172? The XP is only 195, correct?

So, if the USAF can train primary students in a 210 HP version, I think a 195 HP version shouldn't be considered too much plane for a new student.
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Air Force used them to screen student pilots before they got to the jet, a T37. I think they got something like 15 hours, and if they showed the aptitude they went on to the Tweet. They had them at UPT bases and then consolidated them in Hondo TX. Aero Clubs have a number of them. I used T-41s in training but don't think the ones I used had that much HP. Must have been T-41As I guess.
 
James_Dean said:
I was trying to be nice. Anyway, I should admit that I’m really not qualified to comment as I only have 0.9 of 172 time in my flying career and it was a lowly 180hp model.
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Well look at it this way, a 182 has the same wing as a 172 (something I learned this year!) and 230 HP. If you can teach in a 182, you can probably handle any 172 with less. :)


SkyDog58 said:
Wasn't the T-41 that the USAF used for primary training basically a 210 HP 172? The XP is only 195, correct?

So, if the USAF can train primary students in a 210 HP version, I think a 195 HP version shouldn't be considered too much plane for a new student.
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Yes. T-41 is an interesting airplane. Not many of them around anymore but you still see them at military flight clubs from time to time.
 
Okay, I wasn't going to post here again because I didn't feel it was worth it. However, there's a couple of little thungs here juuuuust.....grinding my gears a little too much that I just have to respond to.

Here's the main ones:

BillW said:
OK, I have yet to take my first flying lesson, but even to me, the OP here was seriously lacking in the humility, introspection and judgment required to be a safe pilot.
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I have no idea what you're talking about. Please show me the post where I was "seriously lacking humility, introspection, and judgement". I NEVER argued with a single person who told me it was a bad idea to look for cheap instruction over good instruction, or who criticized my approaches or motives. Not once did I make a post arguing with any of those points. The only vitriolic post I made was in response to the guy who called me a troll (or at least suggested I might be one). I don't really like being called a troll when I'm not. Believe me, almost all of the negativity was on the other side, not mine. It was the other members here who were making posts saying things like "if you can't handle the XP, you don't need to fly..." blah blah blah. I never once retaliated against those remarks either. So I don't know what you're talking about. Please, go ahead, take your time, go back in the thread and show me where I was boastful and lacked humility.

Ken Ibold said:
Put the cost of instruction into perspective. You mention having a tax refund of $500 to spend.
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Where? Please show me the post where I said that? I never said I had a tax refund check of $500. I DID say I had a tax check coming to me, but never said how much it was.

See, you guys apparently saw/read things in my posts that weren't there. It's amazing the double standard. You expect me to be spot-on eloquent, dissertation-level with everything I say, or else you're going to nitpick and strawman what I said and ascribe erroneous motivations to me. Yet, you don't even quote me accurately, and you completely put words in my mouth. Thus, the vitriol of this thread was almost entirely one-sided. It was on the side of you all, not me.

Later
 
EchoKilo,

Your first two posts were basically, can I fly my airplane twice as heavy as the manufacturer limits it to, and how can I get my license as cheaply as possible. You have to understand that as a safety conscious community, folks here are a little concerned. So it's easy to jump to: is this guy for real or is he just messing with us?

You say your Dad flys an XP. Why haven't you asked him these questions? I'm sure he takes weight and balance seriously. As far as training in the XP, I think after a few hours you should do just fine.

There really is a wealth of knowledge here. Good luck in your pursuit.
 
Dave Theisen said:
EchoKilo,

Your first two posts were basically, can I fly my airplane twice as heavy as the manufacturer limits it to, and how can I get my license as cheaply as possible.
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Which either means I'm an idiot, or I'm that damn good. I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
 
Learning to fly ain’t cheap and you better have a passion for it to spend that much money to learn.
Since you have that Cessna to learn in I would find a good instructor and use it.
I had a friend that went from a 150 to a bonanza he bought (got a smoking deal) at about 25 hour when he was a student pilot. You have no idea what he payed for insurance with those hours:)
 
I found my old instructor from 7 years ago. Still teaching, and $45. Boom!
 
BillW said:
OK, I have yet to take my first flying lesson, but even to me, the OP here was seriously lacking in the humility, introspection and judgment required to be a safe pilot. Well, except maybe for recognizing that the 172XP (and, apparently, any 172) was too much plane for him. But he failed to recognize what that meant about his skills. I've read Sinistar's saga here of successfully learning in a 182. If the ubiquitous 172 is too much plane, you're probably doing it wrong.
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Wow, a zero time non pilot ragging on a low time pilot but a pilot nonetheless on what it takes to be a pilot. Gotta love POA.
 
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EchoKilo said:
Okay, I wasn't going to post here again because I didn't feel it was worth it. However, there's a couple of little thungs here juuuuust.....grinding my gears a little too much that I just have to respond to.

Here's the main ones:



I have no idea what you're talking about. Please show me the post where I was "seriously lacking humility, introspection, and judgement". I NEVER argued with a single person who told me it was a bad idea to look for cheap instruction over good instruction, or who criticized my approaches or motives. Not once did I make a post arguing with any of those points. The only vitriolic post I made was in response to the guy who called me a troll (or at least suggested I might be one). I don't really like being called a troll when I'm not. Believe me, almost all of the negativity was on the other side, not mine. It was the other members here who were making posts saying things like "if you can't handle the XP, you don't need to fly..." blah blah blah. I never once retaliated against those remarks either. So I don't know what you're talking about. Please, go ahead, take your time, go back in the thread and show me where I was boastful and lacked humility.


Where? Please show me the post where I said that? I never said I had a tax refund check of $500. I DID say I had a tax check coming to me, but never said how much it was.

See, you guys apparently saw/read things in my posts that weren't there. It's amazing the double standard. You expect me to be spot-on eloquent, dissertation-level with everything I say, or else you're going to nitpick and strawman what I said and ascribe erroneous motivations to me. Yet, you don't even quote me accurately, and you completely put words in my mouth. Thus, the vitriol of this thread was almost entirely one-sided. It was on the side of you all, not me.

Later
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OK, my bad. You said tax refund. You said $800 check (that I fat fingered into $500) and I just made an assumption. Not sure why that is such a big deal, but I apologize for my error. My point remains.

I appreciate you asking for advice. There are some very experienced folks on this board and you should take it to heart. Be your own person, but please do remember that flying is unforgiving. I have lost too many friends who were highly competent pilots. We are serious here because it's serious business.
 
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Go spend 10 hours (not logged) with your dad in the 172xp. Get comfortable with it then go pay the instructor.

Approach your dad respect and defference and not only will you learn some flying stuff, you will probably also improve your relationship with him :)

Maybe propose a trip someplace that you both enjoy going and that can take a plane to.

Plus: free flying
 
Other than my first 10 hours, I did all my flight training in the Hawk XP. It was a great trainer, and barely more complicated than a straight 172.
 
EchoKilo said:
Which either means I'm an idiot, or I'm that damn good. I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
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I have.

But I'm open-minded enough to see if any of your subsequent posts justify altering that conclusion.

Good luck.
 
EchoKilo said:
Which either means I'm an idiot, or I'm that damn good. I'll let you draw your own conclusion.
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Being a good pilot will not enhance your airplane's performance. Conclusion is self evident.
 
So much emotion. Pilots are supposed to be rugged badasses, not blubbering bitching housefraus. I was lied to by my "learn to fly!" brochure apparently. :D

==

If I understood the scenario:

1. Dad is a pilot.
2. Dad owns a 172XP
3. Dad will allow use of said 172XP for primary instruction.
4. Son has been out of the game for 7 years, but was able to solo the airplane at one point, so he's not without skill in the plane.
5. Son prefers to spend an economical amount of cash to complete his PPL.

Some thoughts:

1. There is a lot of rust that needs found and kicked off from the last 7 years.
2. There will be the need for at least 14 more hours of CFI time to complete the PPL minimums.
3. A big chunk of the PPL is mastering takeoffs and landings, the rest are maneuvers, some of which should only be trained with a CFI.

My idea:

Fly with dad and regain your takeoff/landing skills. Maybe do steep turns and emergency landings too. This allows dad to make sure his 172 doesn't get bent or abused. This allows some bonding time. This actually gets dad some practice that he may not otherwise have. The cheapest instructor in the world at $0, and the only person in the world concerned about not bending the plane.

This idea fails if dad is one of those "lost his medical, but kept his plane" sob stories. If that's the case, finding an instructor to teach you on the side is the better path.

Once you're able to bop around airports comfortably with dad as PIC but you flying, take up dual again, this time with way less rust. Now you can go do maneuvers and stalls and things where you want a CFI in the seat, but you won't waste a lot of meter time re-learning the basics.

It would also be a money saver for you to get the written exam done and out of the way. Ground time is expensive too, and not being sharp on things like cloud clearance regulations actually distracts you from the job of flying well.

$0.02

- Mike
 
My dad's not flying right now. Has severe back problems and is having surgery soon. Also on medication. I'm doing this 100% without my parents. Going with my old instructor in the 172SP so it's settled.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Wow, a zero time non pilot ragging on a low time pilot but a pilot nonetheless on what it was takes to be a pilot. Gotta love POA.
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I've done a ton of reading already on the knowledge and judgment required for flying, and I have life experience in other high-risk endeavors, such as motorcycling. I've also flown with good pilots. I know a bad (i.e., likely to be unsafe) attitude when I see one.
 
I liked @EchoKilo better when he wasn't coming back.

"My daddies kick ass screamin' ass 172XP" was funny.

Now he's a whimpering "My daddy can't fly because he's on drugs too", which apparently grounds that sceamin' ass 172XP.

The only good news is the "old instructor" is still alive an kicking to help him tame a 172SP.
 
You learn to fly in what you learn to fly in. The 172XP is a good plane, basically a Skyhawk with more horsepower. Lot's people learned in 172's. You can learn to fly in a Multi if you want to. It's not "too" much...you just adopted that mindset. Free yourself and find an instructor to hep you out in that plane. You may pay more for the instructor, but your cost for using the plane (which is usually the largest cost in flight instruction) is basically fuel and oil.
 
SbestCFII said:
You learn to fly in what you learn to fly in. The 172XP is a good plane, basically a Skyhawk with more horsepower. Lot's people learned in 172's. You can learn to fly in a Multi if you want to. It's not "too" much...you just adopted that mindset. Free yourself and find an instructor to hep you out in that plane. You may pay more for the instructor, but your cost for using the plane (which is usually the largest cost in flight instruction) is basically fuel and oil.
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If I recall correctly, one of this board's participants bought a brand new Pitts S-2C when a student pilot.
 
Hi Echo.
The forums are no different than some cults / gangs. You will have click / gang / regulars that will test and try to see how much you can take / put up with. My advice, Just ignore them, just ask your questions, there are many willing to help.
The XP, while a 172 with a bigger engine, and some additional controls, can be a bit more difficult to handle, mainly in the slow / landing configuration. With a good instructor that can show you how to handle that part it is a lot of fun to fly. Give it some time, do some slow flight, stalls, get comfortable with it in that domain, and you will never like / want another plane.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi Echo.
The forums are no different than some cults / gangs. You will have click / gang / regulars that will test and try to see how much you can take / put up with. My advice, Just ignore them, just ask your questions, there are many willing to help.
The XP, while a 172 with a bigger engine, and some additional controls, can be a bit more difficult to handle, mainly in the slow / landing configuration. With a good instructor that can show you how to handle that part it is a lot of fun to fly. Give it some time, do some slow flight, stalls, get comfortable with it in that domain, and you will never like / want another plane.
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Thanks bluesideup! I agree. Thanks for the good tips about the 172 and the XP. My father really loves the XP. I just really wish he were feeling better so we could do some more flying together. He is going to have surgery soon, and there will be some recovery time, but I expect him to be back at it some day in the (hopefully near) future. I think I'm going to rent the local flight school's 172SP too and hopefully log some hours in that. The SP is really nice! Doesn't have the G1000, which is actually better for me because I prefer the standard stuff. I'm so looking forward to picking up flying again!
 
Well, I don’t know what this XP thing is, but I’ve flown and instructed in 152’s, 172’s, and 182’s. Don’t ask which models because honestly I haven’t a clue.
I will say that for a new student, CLEARLY the C152 is the easiest to fly. Not even close. That’s not to say the C172 isn’t doable, just a bit more clunky to learn in.
I also would not teach in a constant speed prop airplane for pre solo given the choice.

All that said, it’s still a 172 and shouldn’t be a show stopper.
 
BillW said:
I've done a ton of reading already on the knowledge and judgment required for flying, and I have life experience in other high-risk endeavors, such as motorcycling. I've also flown with good pilots. I know a bad (i.e., likely to be unsafe) attitude when I see one.
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Yeah, sorry but none of that qualifies you as someone knowledgeable on aviation to the extent to be able to pass judgment in this scenario. You ride motorcycles and have flown as a passenger, big deal. The OP has taken actual lessons and has soloed. He knows that he struggled with the XP but did better in the 150 and so wants to pick back up with a 150 after the passing of seven years since his last flight. Sounds like good recognition of his personal skills/limitations and good risk management to me. I have little doubt that once he gets back in the seat, gets some more time logged and solos again that he will quite comfortably be able to transition to the XP.

Some folks struggle more than others and smaller “baby steps” are required while the “naturals” take things by leaps and bounds. My learning curve was more in the middle but I have seen both extremes and have seen many of both succeed and some fail. I have even seen some of the seemingly naturally great pilots succumb to their personal frailties and end up dead.

Now did some of the OP’s verbiage in describing the XP come across as a bit sensational? Yes. However those are thoughts formed from seven year old memories of someone who was just 20 at the time. I bet his opinion changes fairly soon.

So I bet the OP once he gets back to it will earn his private pilot certificate while you remain on the sidelines playing armchair quarterback. Have fun with that.

Good luck to you @EchoKilo. Don’t be dissuaded by jerks.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well, I don’t know what this XP thing is, but I’ve flown and instructed in 152’s, 172’s, and 182’s. Don’t ask which models because honestly I haven’t a clue.
I will say that for a new student, CLEARLY the C152 is the easiest to fly. Not even close. That’s not to say the C172 isn’t doable, just a bit more clunky to learn in.
I also would not teach in a constant speed prop airplane for pre solo given the choice.
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The C172XP has a constant speed propeller. As far as suitability of a C152 or C172 for primary instruction goes, respectfully disagree with you for a variety of reasons...

EK, what engine is in the C172XP? Is it the 195 HP or 210 HP?
 
Learning a C172 with a Fixed Pitch Prop is like learning to drive a car with an automatic transmission.

Learning a C172 with a Constant Speed Prop is like learning to drive a car with a manual transmission.

They're both the Toyota Corolla of the sky.

How much can the prop really add to training? An hour at most?
 
schmookeeg said:
They're both the Toyota Corolla of the sky.
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More like Honda Accords (just because I like Hondas better ;)
No matter what you use to learn to fly Echo, remember, once you get your ticket, you are allowed to fly in any single engine aircraft (well, take a few extra hours for complex/high perf.) but it is similar to driving. Just because you learnt driving in a Mini Cooper do not be afraid of the Suburban. Both can be real fun.
Get the FAA written test out of the way early in your training, enjoy flying and be safe!

Oh, and don't abandon POA, these boys are like dogs that bark... they never really bite :p
 
idahoflier said:
The C172XP has a constant speed propeller. As far as suitability of a C152 or C172 for primary instruction goes, respectfully disagree with you for a variety of reasons...

EK, what engine is in the C172XP? Is it the 195 HP or 210 HP?
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I don't believe the 195 and 210 is a difference of engines. It's the same engine - the Continental IO-360. It can be cranked up from 195 to 210 some way (I think).
 
SkyDog58 said:
Good luck to you @EchoKilo. Don’t be dissuaded by jerks.
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It's fine. They're not bothering me. They're just people on the internet.

And just to be clear, I could fly the XP just fine. It's not that I couldn't handle it. I just preferred the docile, kite-like 150 to train in.
 
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