How to avoid FBO fees at Stewart KSWF?

Elpasso,your last post is somewhat correct ,however I bet the OP was treated very well, liked the service, coffee .mens room, and the respect he was given at the fbo.yes it cost ,but only a fraction of what the g500 next to him was charged! one could make a case that the g500 drivers help pay for the majority of services rendered to small ga aircraft.
 
It appears that Signature is owned by BBA Aviation PLC which is a British company. Glad they are here creating jobs, but ....

"BBA Aviation plc is a provider of global aviation support and aftermarket services primarily focused on servicing the Business and General Aviation (B&GA) market. The Company operates through two divisions: Flight Support and Aftermarket Services. The Flight Support businesses include Signature Flight Support, which is a fixed base operation (FBO) network for B&GA covering destinations in North America, Europe, Caribbean, Africa and Asia. The Aftermarket Services division is focused on the support of maturing aerospace platforms through Ontic, the Company's legacy support business, and the repair and overhaul of engines through its Engine Repair and Overhaul (ERO) businesses. The businesses within the Flight Support segment provide refueling, ground handling and other services to the B&GA and commercial aviation markets. The businesses within the Aftermarket Services segment maintain and support engines and aerospace components, sub-systems and systems."
 
hotprops said:
Elpasso,your last post is somewhat correct ,however I bet the OP was treated very well, liked the service, coffee .mens room, and the respect he was given at the fbo.yes it cost ,but only a fraction of what the g500 next to him was charged! one could make a case that the g500 drivers help pay for the majority of services rendered to small ga aircraft.
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Yes, the service was good and I was treated very well, but honestly I really did not want to go in the building. I went in to pay my bill and make sure I followed their rules. I did have bottle of water and used the the bathroom after paying.
 
hotprops said:
Elpasso,your last post is somewhat correct ,however I bet the OP was treated very well, liked the service, coffee .mens room, and the respect he was given at the fbo.yes it cost ,but only a fraction of what the g500 next to him was charged! one could make a case that the g500 drivers help pay for the majority of services rendered to small ga aircraft.
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That's nice, but often I (and others) just want an exit gate from the public ramp to the public parking lot without paying $50 for the privilege of walking across a private shiny waxed marble floor. And this (protected) business model deprives us of that.

Again, per my earlier post:

... Cleveland's fair solution. Have done this there, works very well:

From Nick Kline on 09-Aug-2017

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Here's how you park at Burke if you don't want to deal with Signature, as advised to me from the Tower controller himself. Taxi to GA parking as shown on the AFD. It's right next to Signature, so if a lineman marshalls you in, like he did today, be certain to tell him you don't want any services from the FBO (to avoid fees). If he's already set chocks, he'll pull them and walk away. You then chock your own plane. You then walk to the Gate 1 door, which is immediately underneath the control tower itself, on the north side. You can then exit airport property through that building.
 
paflyer said:
I don't have 6 kids from different fathers like a large portion of the population, but my taxes go to support that "activity."
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A large portion? Got a reference to back up this assertion?

Hyperbole will not play well with this audience.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
A large portion? Got a reference to back up this assertion?

Hyperbole will not play well with this audience.

-Skip
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It's more than the number of aircraft owners.

How much of one's income is a "fair share"?
 
Clip4 said:
No, you are not the general tax payer of which I speak. 99% of the general tax payers do not own a plane and have no interest in funding an airport for your hobby. Most airports operate with very little in local tax revenues. If an airport cannot demonstrare self sufficiency, they do not qualify for AIP grants.
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Henning...sorry...clip4, man up and admit that you are grasping at straws. I sure as heck am the general taxpayer and I have over 45,000 examples to show you why I am, from last year alone. What i own or do not own does not change that.
 
ok I hope we can all agree the OP opted to go into a higher density airport with 121 ops for his easiest option and not to orange county .also given the 121 ops there a ton of rules., sterol areas ,who may go on a ramp ect ect ect. if the world trade center did not get wiped off the face of the earth a lot of these rules would not be in place but sadly they are. and there are requisite costs to be in compliance. Baron did the fbo give your people a golf cart ride to the proper building?
 
Shiny Jet apologists can keep adding fluff services, cookies, golf carts, red carpets, G5 comparisons and leather couches to justify the costs, but some days all that is needed is a gate to the parking lot. The rest is silly overhead if you are not corporate and trying to impress your paying passengers with the jet lifestyle.

My last Signature experience involved 2 lineman and a desk girl sitting on their butts all night with a ramp full of planes they couldn't hangar and weather coming in.

Apparently Sig requires three "trained" employees to push a plane into a hangar, and only two had that little piece of paper.

They told me they had repeatedly complained to their management to schedule appropriately or train the desk girl to spot, but the clown show continued to go on.

Oh, and somehow with all that spare time they hadn't bothered to top off my tanks per request for my am departure time either. Nice premium services.
 
hotprops said:
ok I hope we can all agree the OP opted to go into a higher density airport with 121 ops for his easiest option and not to orange county .also given the 121 ops there a ton of rules., sterol areas ,who may go on a ramp ect ect ect. if the world trade center did not get wiped off the face of the earth a lot of these rules would not be in place but sadly they are. and there are requisite costs to be in compliance. Baron did the fbo give your people a golf cart ride to the proper building?
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They did offer a loaner car, but I declined because the international terminal was just 500-1000 feet away so my sons walked. Again, the service was very good, but I really did not need service.
 
I noticed there was an Army building at the other end of the general avaiation ramp. Maybe I'll try that building next time since one of my sons is enlisted in the the USAF as a medic and frequently flys with the Army guys in the black hawks.
 
It is my belief that the problem of high ramp fees and fuel 3X what it costs at the nearest airport, will take care of itself before long. I won't fly ever into Palm Springs again. There are plenty of GA friendly airports around and I'll support them wholeheartedly.
 
it costs $30 to take your car into Yellowstone plus the camping fee.
 
Duct tape over your tail number and BSing your way in?

Turn the masters off and look for the lights?

Rent a plane with a fake name and CC number?

Or the best, Don't pay the bill?
 
I'd hardly call SWF a higher density operation. There are non towered fields that get more traffic than SWF
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
My last Signature experience involved 2 lineman and a desk girl sitting on their butts all night with a ramp full of planes they couldn't hangar and weather coming in.

Apparently Sig requires three "trained" employees to push a plane into a hangar, and only two had that little piece of paper.

They told me they had repeatedly complained to their management to schedule appropriately or train the desk girl to spot, but the clown show continued to go on.

Oh, and somehow with all that spare time they hadn't bothered to top off my tanks per request for my am departure time either. Nice premium services.
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So relatable it actually hurts.

From the other side of course. Our FBO is Signature Select (Signature affiliated) and I cant stand the things you experienced or the fee structure. The first question for a new customer should not be basically "how are you paying your fee"?

I try to drag the air conditioning cart over and give them a complimentary windshield wash to help make up for it but that's everything i can do.
 
Baron you sound like a nice guy so I have a solution for the pick up trip if it on a weekday.a good friend of mine Kenny Reese has one of his paint shops at stewart and I am sure he would help you out as you might be a future client I cant remember his exact location on the airport but I am sure he has a car.sometimes his brother Don is there.so just call him and ask first .im me I will give you my info or call him for you . he did 3 aircraft for me,great work btw.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Just a little hint: their model is not based on providing support to small piston GA. We are distractions and gnats to them.

However, small operators who also cater well to non business-expensed flights deserve our support to stay in business.
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People complain equally about mom & pop shops when it effects their wallets the same. Blaming Signature or Atlantic just makes them feel better about it. Mom & pop places charge high fees at high density airports, too. PHX has Cutter and Swift, both very small in the fbo game, and their fees are as much or more than either FBO in Scottsdale (Signature and Ross).

When an airport requires an fbo to provide services they place the responsibility on the fbo, which comes at a cost to the fbo. So they charge you, the consumer. If you don't like your choices at an airport either don't go there (why is this hard for people to get?) or go there and pay what is owed. Write the airport board and/or manager and attend their public meetings. Complaining on the internet will get you nowhere.
 
Z06_Mir said:
People complain equally about mom & pop shops when it effects their wallets the same. Blaming Signature or Atlantic just makes them feel better about it. Mom & pop places charge high fees at high density airports, too. PHX has Cutter and Swift, both very small in the fbo game, and their fees are as much or more than either FBO in Scottsdale (Signature and Ross).

When an airport requires an fbo to provide services they place the responsibility on the fbo, which comes at a cost to the fbo. So they charge you, the consumer. If you don't like your choices at an airport either don't go there (why is this hard for people to get?) or go there and pay what is owed. Write the airport board and/or manager and attend their public meetings. Complaining on the internet will get you nowhere.
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At a minimum they should be required to post their fees and policies to the public so we can make informed decisions to avoid them. As it is, I have to leave 3 messages, and wait 2 days to get a callback from someone that doesn't really know what the policies are.....
 
Salty said:
At a minimum they should be required to post their fees and policies to the public so we can make informed decisions to avoid them. As it is, I have to leave 3 messages, and wait 2 days to get a callback from someone that doesn't really know what the policies are.....
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Call during business hours (5a-9p usually) or send an email to that location. you can find their email address on airnav or the website section for that location. callimg the after hours number or leaving a message is definitely not the best way.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Call during business hours (5a-9p usually) or send an email to that location. you can find their email address on airnav or the website section for that location. callimg the after hours number or leaving a message is definitely not the best way.
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You're living in a fantasy if you think you can get a person that can give you a straight story with a quick phone call during business hours. And if it's not written down, it doesn't mean squat. I want it in writing. It's like going into a store and pick up an item without knowing it's cost and getting to the register and being forced to pay whatever they say. Your solution adds in the "ability" to ask a minimum wage clerk what the price is from their memory and with no guarantee they were right.
 
Salty said:
You're living in a fantasy if you think you can get a person that can give you a straight story with a quick phone call during business hours. And if it's not written down, it doesn't mean squat. I want it in writing. It's like going into a store and pick up an item without knowing it's cost and getting to the register and being forced to pay whatever they say. Your solution adds in the "ability" to ask a minimum wage clerk what the price is from their memory and with no guarantee they were right.
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I said you could email them and I even included where you can find the location-specific email addresses. All the CSRs quote prices from the exact same sheet of paper (or by punching your tail # into the computer), so there is no memory involved. If you NEED a gallon of milk and you go into the store and it's $8 you still have to pay the $8 because you NEED it immediately. Doesn't matter if it's posted or not or if you don't like it. You still need it. Similar to people NEEDING eclipse glasses before tomorrow. If it's the only store around and you refuse to pay the going rate you're not going to barge in and demand it for less because you don't think you should have to pay it. Yes, you can go to a different store, just like you can go to a different airport that may better suit your budget and your needs. Insulting the clerk and the store or at the FBO is not going to gain you a thing.

Try to remember it isn't the CSR or the line guy making these numbers up. And if they don't charge you appropriately they get punished by their management because their management gets punished by their management. If you don't like the fees choose with your feet and go somewhere else.
 
But I can't go to a different store, that's what you seem to be missing. Once I've stopped and found out the outrageous price, I have to pay it. Unlike the $8 milk that I can leave in the store and not buy.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Try to remember it isn't the CSR or the line guy making these numbers up. And if they don't charge you appropriately they get punished by their management because their management gets punished by their management.
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Somehow, your comments reflect that you don't travel to very many airports beyond AZ, nor have to make last minute changes in destinations or fuel stops.

Either that, or you like to call the pilots here who have been repeatedly misquoted prices by some "CSR" on the phone as liars.

Competence in service and pricing accuracy at FBOs vary significantly. Hired help can be very good, or pitiful.

Z06_Mir said:
Complaining on the internet will get you nowhere.
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Ummm, isn't that exactly what you have been doing here with your series of posts?
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, you pay for parks that have bikeways, horse paths, AtV/snowmobile trails, skate board facilities, basketball courts, ball diamonds, ect. Parks are used by a large percentage of the population. National and many state park systems also require an entrance or annual fee. The GA portion of an airport is used by less than 1% of the population. A ramp fee is a cost to use the air park.

Flying isn't a cheap hobby and if $43 ramp fee is too much for you, you need a new hobby or only land where it is free.
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I'm ok with it if the 43 dollars goes to the general fund for maintaining the airport. Normally less than 10 dollars is going to the airport. The rest is taken by the fbo that has no competition on the field. That's my problem with your argument.
 
Z06_Mir said:
People complain equally about mom & pop shops when it effects their wallets the same. Blaming Signature or Atlantic just makes them feel better about it. Mom & pop places charge high fees at high density airports, too. PHX has Cutter and Swift, both very small in the fbo game, and their fees are as much or more than either FBO in Scottsdale (Signature and Ross).

When an airport requires an fbo to provide services they place the responsibility on the fbo, which comes at a cost to the fbo. So they charge you, the consumer. If you don't like your choices at an airport either don't go there (why is this hard for people to get?) or go there and pay what is owed. Write the airport board and/or manager and attend their public meetings. Complaining on the internet will get you nowhere.
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Who is going to go to a public meeting for an airport that is 500 miles away?
What if you don't want any services from the FBO except access to the other side of the airport fence?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I'm ok with it if the 43 dollars goes to the general fund for maintaining the airport. Normally less than 10 dollars is going to the airport. The rest is taken by the fbo that has no competition on the field. That's my problem with your argument.
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paflyer said:
Who is going to go to a public meeting for an airport that is 500 miles away?
What if you don't want any services from the FBO except access to the other side of the airport fence?
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What if an FBO is fined for letting someone through the fence that should not be there.
 
when car gas was $4 per gallon everywhere, you just paid . this thread is broken.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Somehow, your comments reflect that you don't travel to very many airports beyond AZ, nor have to make last minute changes in destinations or fuel stops.

Either that, or you like to call the pilots here who have been repeatedly misquoted prices by some "CSR" on the phone as liars.

Competence in service and pricing accuracy at FBOs vary significantly. Hired help can be very good, or pitiful.


Ummm, isn't that exactly what you have been doing here with your series of posts?
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That doesn't have a thing to do with this conversation or my point of view.. but so far this year I've flown little airplanes to both coasts, across the Rocky Mountains a couple of times and even a brief stint over the ocean (Catalina Island). I've been to a few Signatures, a handful of Atlantics and countless varieties of mom & pop facilities of various sizes and services. The outhouse in Ekalaka, MT was not my favorite, but hey I survived it. Would have happily paid $43 to not pee in a 100* outhouse that was disgusting, and pump my own fuel out of a questionable pump but hey I really didn't have a choice on that one. But just because their facility wasn't what I wanted doesn't mean I ever complained to anyone about it. In fact I wrote the airport manager a nice email and complimented what he did have. Doesn't matter if it isn't what I wanted, it's what they had.

paflyer said:
Who is going to go to a public meeting for an airport that is 500 miles away?
What if you don't want any services from the FBO except access to the other side of the airport fence?
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You can call into them. You can also read the minutes from meetings past, agendas for future meetings and write/call the board members and/or airport director.

Clip4 said:
What if an FBO is fined for letting someone through the fence that should not be there.
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The FBO gets a five figure fine and Mr. GA Crusader walks away happy, feeling like he deserved to drive through that gate despite the fact he didn't have/show credentials.
 
Clip4 said:
What if an FBO is fined for letting someone through the fence that should not be there.
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Funny, I and or my passengers have never undergone a background check/physical search going from the parking lot to the ramp.....
 
As mentioned, AOPA is advocating for a solution.
The first article below calls out Signature directly, and shows how we all have a responsibility to report unfair fees/pricing.
It interestingly mentions the required selling of several locations for anti-trust purposes when Signature started its consolidation plan...didn't work.
This is the first indication of what privatizing ATC will look like.

The second article highlights many aspects contributing to the bigger problem: consolidation, monopoly (as someone already mentioned).
Notice the "related articles" at the bottom of the second article. This is a big, ongoing issue.
As ElPaso correctly mentioned in his post, the solution is public access and public parking for appropriate fees, as Cleveland airport is doing.
If you don't want or need the services of a private company at a public facility, you should have the option of declining those services.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/march/30/aopa-battling-excessive-fbo-fees
https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/airports-and-airspace/airport-advocacy/egregious-fbo-pricing


P.S. On the other side of the ramp...at the airline terminal, you can sit in a "cell phone lot" for free, and you can stop for 5 or 10 minutes in a "loading zone" to load/unload passengers...for free. If you want to park for an hour, you pay for it. But if you're not using the airport's services, there is a free option.
 
hotprops said:
aopa=joke
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Maybe...but they are the only organization I see lobbying for General Aviation.
As far as I can tell, it was their direct lobbying efforts that enabled Basic Med (which I don't need yet), but will certainly enable many pilots to keep flying who otherwise would have been grounded.
So, if they can lobby for truly "public access" to airports, I would support them in that.
 
Adam Weiss said:
Maybe...but they are the only organization I see lobbying for General Aviation.
As far as I can tell, it was their direct lobbying efforts that enabled Basic Med (which I don't need yet), but will certainly enable many pilots to keep flying who otherwise would have been grounded.
So, if they can lobby for truly "public access" to airports, I would support them in that.
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EAA
 
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