How to avoid FBO fees at Stewart KSWF?

My question has been, what if you don't pay? Will you not get a clearance from the tower? Sure they have your N number, but not your SS#.
"I am sorry but we are placing you under citizen arrest until you pay."
A local airport FBO aggressively charges a ramp feeeven for drop offs. The FBO rents the space from the county fro $200/year. A sweetheart deal because a relative is on the board of commisioners.
But be clear, I am all for supporting the airport when reasonable fees are charged for needed services. I will happily buy gas even when not needed. But, I don't owe anyone a living.
 
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Clip4 said:
There are plenty of pilots who believe the general tax payer should pay for their hobby as an excuse to avoid airport associated charges.
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I am the 'General Taxpayer' of which you speak. I happen to own a vehicle (airplane) that I keep at a taxpayer funded airport. My taxes have already paid and contunie to pay for that infrastructure. I pay extra to use a hangar, but I should not pay to use the actual airport as it is maintained by my taxes.

I use the local taxpayer funded boat ramp to support my hobby, because I have paid taxes and the government agency that put it there recognizes this fact.

I could come up with many more examples but I am certain that given your well known integrity, you have realized that your argument was in error, and there is no need.
 
Morgan3820 said:
My question has been, what if you don't pay? Will you not get a clearance from the tower? Sure they have your N number, but not your SS#.
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haha, a little off topic but this happened to me in Mexico - I thought I'd paid the 6 fees associated with our arrival/departure at Chihuahua but nope, tower made it clear I had only paid 5 and was not going anywhere til I came back inside! (they had teenagers in camo with automatic weapons too!)
 
Clark1961 said:
I mean the airports have an economic impact and that impact should be measured and considered when allocating public funds. Do you have some sort of problem with allocating public funding to the economic drivers?
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No, I don't. What I have a problem with is general tax revenues being used for unneeded subsidies.
 
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Clip4 said:
No at all, but allocating public funds for you to park your airplane on for free is not an economic driver. It is an unneeded subsidy.
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Dropping a passenger off isn't parking. I don't have a lot of argument with charging when services are used. If I leave the plane there for more than 30 minutes, even if I use the rest room (although that's pushing it) I can see charging a fee, but stopping and picking up or dropping off a passenger doesn't cost them anything and shouldn't cost me anything.
 
Clip4 said:
No at all, but allocating public funds for you to park your airplane on for free is not an economic driver. It is an unneeded subsidy.
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A nominal parking fee to the airport authority similar to a parking fee along a street might be appropriate in some cases. Most cases should be handled as parking is on sidestreets. Parking fees charged by FBOs can get way out of line and the $50 paid in the case of the OP is one of times it is way out of line.
 
Clip4 said:
There are plenty of pilots who believe the general tax payer should pay for their hobby as an excuse to avoid airport associated charges.
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Say you want to go to Philadelphia. You drive your car up 95. When you get to the city limits, you find the only way to get access to the city is to pay profit-making Signature - there is no other entry/exit point- a fee to move your car onto their driveway, pay $5.00/gal for gas, and higher parking and "handling" fees because your car is a SUV (that takes up the same real estate as a minivan) and you obviously are "richer" than the minivan driver.
 
I actually think that AOPA should strive to create a public use path/access point at all public airports for pilots. Many smaller public airports already have these gates in place. This is probably easier said than done due to security concerns at larger airports. Government funded airport security is funneling business to FBOs who charge fees. I'm sure the FBOs would lobby against this as well.

It is ironic that the public airports are all locked down now and the private airport that I am based at with 50 airplanes has no fences at all! A nearby public airport of the same size has government funded security/infrastructure and an FBO that charges fees plus they act like they own gate access.
 
Clip4 said:
You mean the same grants that require an airport to demonstrate they have a self supporting economic plan to qualify for?
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I hope you don't instruct as your full-time occupation.
 
Salty said:
Dropping a passenger off isn't parking. I don't have a lot of argument with charging when services are used. If I leave the plane there for more than 30 minutes, even if I use the rest room (although that's pushing it) I can see charging a fee, but stopping and picking up or dropping off a passenger doesn't cost them anything and shouldn't cost me anything.
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Honestly, I understand your issue, but how many times a day can people stop in the parking lot of your business, drop off a stranger who is going to walk through your premises, use the restroom, and loiter around in your heated/cooled building waiting for transportation?

If you think there money to be made renting a buiding and a ramp to operate a free GA terminal, you should open your own.
 
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Baron62 said:
I actually think that AOPA should strive to create a public use path/access point at all public airports for pilots. Many smaller public airports already have these gates in place. This is probably easier said than done due to security concerns at larger airports. Government funded airport security is funneling business to FBOs who charge fees. I'm sure the FBOs would lobby against this as well.

It is ironic that the public airports are all locked down now and the private airport that I am based at with 50 airplanes has no fences at all! A nearby public airport of the same size has government funded security/infrastructure and an FBO that charges fees plus they act like they own gate access.
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Supposedly AOPA is working on doing just that.
 
Baron62 said:
After leaving, I proceded over to Sky Acres (44N) which was right along my route and filled up for $4.15/gallon. ;)
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Sky Acres is one of my favorite Burger Run destinations. Did yo stop for lunch?

-Skip
 
Clip4 said:
Honestly, I understand your issue, but how many times a day can people stop in the parking lot of your business, drop off a stranger who is going to walk through your premises, use the restroom, and loiter around waiting for transportation?

If you think there money to be made operating a free GA terminal, you should open your own.
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There are reasonable alternatives for this, without the snippiness that seems to come to these threads.

Many folks don't feel like further enriching the Shiny Jet FBOs and don't want or need Shiny Jet service. Cleveland KBRK lakefront airport has figured this out.

First, the typical $ignature FBO comments in Airnav:

From Nick Kline on 21-Jul-2017
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Cessna 172 at Signature. They had a $50 landing fee that was waived with $7/gallon fuel. My bill was $195 for 27 gallons. A week later I had a second charge on my bankcard for $185. When I called and asked why, they said they noticed a discrepancy in their ledgers and billed me for 2 more gallons of fuel than I actually received. So they just went ahead and charged my card again. They said the refund was already in process, but so far nothing. Pretty peeved they just double charged me like that. No crew car for me that day, either. Disappointed. Will park at the flight school from now on.

From J. Schnabel on 10-May-2017
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Typical Signature operation when only FBO on field. Extremely high fuel price with 50.00 service fee just for running a truck over to our plane. Yelled enough and they waved the fee. Then they billed us twice. Sadly these guys are a no more than opportunists to GA. I am based out of Cincinnati Lunken and Signature took over the FBO there. Now we have 30 min waits to get fuel and cost is higher than at Greater CVG! No Stars

From Greg Young on 22-Mar-2017
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The associated fees just to land and park at Signature quoted $72! With $20 overnight fee included $92! (The city gets $7 of those.) It took 5 minutes to simply get a quote, I had to give model plane & tail number for a quote, but told discounted with min fuel purchase that is double price/gal as home.

From Gerard Myers on 01-Jan-2017
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Overpriced -way too expensive-fee after fee-what a joke. Avoid Signature at this airport and everywhere else. No stars.

From Mike Vetter on 14-Nov-2016
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Be advised that the service charges/landing fees are according to aircraft type and weight. My C310 was mistakenly charged at a C340 rate. A 340 is a $95 fee or 30 gal minimums vs. The 310 at $70 or 12 gal min. Ms. Jones at Signature provided excellent customer service and the problem has been resolved.

​
And Cleveland's fair solution. Have done this there, works very well:

From Nick Kline on 09-Aug-2017

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Here's how you park at Burke if you don't want to deal with Signature, as advised to me from the Tower controller himself. Taxi to GA parking as shown on the AFD. It's right next to Signature, so if a lineman marshalls you in, like he did today, be certain to tell him you don't want any services from the FBO (to avoid fees). If he's already set chocks, he'll pull them and walk away. You then chock your own plane. You then walk to the Gate 1 door, which is immediately underneath the control tower itself, on the north side. You can then exit airport property through that building.
​
:)
 
I'd be fine if they wanted to treat it like public-use boat ramps. Fee is usually $3-5, drop the money in a little box with an envelope that has your name/phone/tail #. Doesn't matter if you're parking for 5 minutes or 5 hours.
 
If you like you kids, don't send them on Norwegian!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
Clip4 said:
Honestly, I understand your issue, but how many times a day can people stop in the parking lot of your business, drop off a stranger who is going to walk through your premises, use the restroom, and loiter around in your heated/cooled building waiting for transportation?

If you think there money to be made renting a buiding and a ramp to operate a free GA terminal, you should open your own.
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Maybe you should read my post before responding to it the next time.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I am the 'General Taxpayer' of which you speak. I happen to own a vehicle (airplane) that I keep at a taxpayer funded airport. My taxes have already paid and contunie to pay for that infrastructure. I pay extra to use a hangar, but I should not pay to use the actual airport as it is maintained by my taxes.

I use the local taxpayer funded boat ramp to support my hobby, because I have paid taxes and the government agency that put it there recognizes this fact.

I could come up with many more examples but I am certain that given your well known integrity, you have realized that your argument was in error, and there is no need.
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No, you are not the general tax payer of which I speak. 99% of the general tax payers do not own a plane and have no interest in funding an airport for your hobby. Most airports operate with very little in local tax revenues. If an airport cannot demonstrare self sufficiency, they do not qualify for AIP grants.
 
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OP, what would dropping off your children by auto have cost you? Add the cost for car, gas tolls.bridge,lost time and income / and or your billing your patients /clients?
 
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Clip4 said:
No, you are not the general tax payer of which I speak. 99% of the general tax payers do not own a plane and have not interest in funding an airport for your hobby. Most airports operate with very little in local radar revenues.
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I don't own a bike but pay for bike trails with my taxes.
I don't own a boat but pay for boat ramps with my taxes.
I don't own an ATV but pay for off-road parks with my taxes.
I don't own a horse but pay for trails with my taxes.
I don't own a skateboard but pay for skate parks with my taxes.
I have a car and pay for the roads with my taxes.
Why should I have to pay extra to use the airport?
 
lancie00 said:
I don't own a bike but pay for bike trails with my taxes.
I don't own a boat but pay for boat ramps with my taxes.
I don't own an ATV but pay for off-road parks with my taxes.
I don't own a horse but pay for trails with my taxes.
I don't own a skateboard but pay for skate parks with my taxes.
I have a car and pay for the roads with my taxes.
Why should I have to pay extra to use the airport?
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Yes, you pay for parks that have bikeways, horse paths, AtV/snowmobile trails, skate board facilities, basketball courts, ball diamonds, ect. Parks are used by a large percentage of the population. National and many state park systems also require an entrance or annual fee. The GA portion of an airport is used by less than 1% of the population. A ramp fee is a cost to use the air park.

Flying isn't a cheap hobby and if $43 ramp fee is too much for you, you need a new hobby or only land where it is free.
 
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most of the people on this site who own a aircraft are in the top 2-3 % having the highest wealth in the world!! so says my accountant, when I ***** about sending a large check to the U.S. Treasury. every year. First world problems and all that! Have fun spending your $ life is short,fly fast.
 
Clip4 said:
Flying isn't a cheap hobby and if $43 ramp fee is too much for you, you need a new hobby or only land where it is free.
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You are absolutely right. We should just give money to businesses whenever they ask us to do so. Never mind the fee is out of proportion to the services rendered.
 
I remember when people thought a dime to use a bathroom stall was excessive.
 
OP is Ginny Styles still up at the restaurant saying hello now and than .I can remember when she was the Unicom operator just as you walked in the door.I know her daughter is running Sky Geek the "amazon" of pilot goodies ,down at the bottom of the hill .I try to use them as often as I can .I searched for days for a tube of FuelLube , they got it overnight !
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, you pay for parks that have bikeways, horse paths, AtV/snowmobile trails, skate board facilities, basketball courts, ball diamonds, ect. Parks are used by a large percentage of the population. National and many state park systems also require an entrance or annual fee. The GA portion of an airport is used by less than 1% of the population. A ramp fee is a cost to use the air park
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I would argue that a large percentage of the population "uses" their local airport as well. Even if they don't actually go to the airport, they still get the benefits of having an airport nearby.
 
Clark1961 said:
You are absolutely right. We should just give money to businesses whenever they ask us to do so. Never mind the fee is out of proportion to the services rendered.
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A couple real Communists on this thread.

Hey Clippy, do you actually use a plane to go places or just do circles an bumps in the pattern?

Maybe you should rejoin AOPA to learn about the real issues.

You reference business and having you drop off people randomly to use the facilities "free." You forget that in many cases there is ONE business that provides through the fence access. You have NO choice. You are FORCED to use a facility that can charge whatever they want, and that is often hidden until you arrive on their doorstep.

I don't have 6 kids from different fathers like a large portion of the population, but my taxes go to support that "activity."
 
Anymouse said:
I would argue that a large percentage of the population "uses" their local airport as well. Even if they don't actually go to the airport, they still get the benefits of having an airport nearby.
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Exactly.
 
Clip4 said:
Flying isn't a cheap hobby and if $43 ramp fee is too much for you, you need a new hobby or only land where it is free.
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And I still struggle to understand why some people get off on telling others how they should spend their money. $ignature is not a mom & pop business, it is a significant profit center for its executives and investors. If feel like you want to donate your excess cash to that corporate machine more power to you.

By the way, $ignature (and Landmark) are controlled by BBA, a British multinational. Per the below link, they increased their annual revenue by 25% to $2.1 billion in 2016, and simultaneously grew their operating profit by 67%.

Oh, and their top paid director took in $2.7 million in compensation last year, up from $1.9 million in '15.

Not bad for a "struggling" airport business.

http://www.bbaaviation.com/~/media/...iles/annual-reports/bba-annualreport-2016.pdf

Read the document in the above link. They are strongly motivated to keep their fee structure as high as the corporate market will bear, and prevent their competition from gaining footholds in "their" airports.
 
Elpasso .supply side economics at work Sears and Pennys department stores going out of business.BBA supplys needed goods and services Rev up25%,Profit up67% if they sucked so bad they would not be doing your quoted numbers and would be failing.
 
hotprops said:
Elpasso .supply side economics at work Sears and Pennys department stores going out of business.BBA supplys needed goods and services Rev up25%,Profit up67% if they sucked so bad they would not be doing your quoted numbers an would be failing.
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Just a little hint: their model is not based on providing support to small piston GA. We are distractions and gnats to them.

However, small operators who also cater well to non business-expensed flights deserve our support to stay in business.
 
Clip4 said:
Yes, you pay for parks that have bikeways, horse paths, AtV/snowmobile trails, skate board facilities, basketball courts, ball diamonds, ect. Parks are used by a large percentage of the population. National and many state park systems also require an entrance or annual fee. The GA portion of an airport is used by less than 1% of the population. A ramp fee is a cost to use the air park.

Flying isn't a cheap hobby and if $43 ramp fee is too much for you, you need a new hobby or only land where it is free.
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I'm sorry but a few dollars to walk through a park or $20 to camp overnight is nowhere even close to being proportionate to $50 to walk through someone's building. And just because flying is considered an "expensive" activity, doesn't mean everything needs to be expensive. I know of a lot of campers that cost more than my airplane and they can camp in national parks for a lot less than $43.
(Google Search)
Approximate 2016 Open Dates for Yellowstone Campgrounds
Campground 2016 Fee
Bridge Bay 5/20 – 9/5 $23.50
Canyon 5/27 – 9/11 $28
Fishing Bridge RV 5/6 – 9/18 $47.75
Grant 6/19 – 9/18 $28
 
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