How NOT to tie down your aircraft

SoonerAviator said:
but most of the tie downs use a metal slip fitting for setting rope tension as well.
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If they connect to the tiedown ring with a non-latching s-hook, you'd best find a better way. Almost lost a rental plane at my first Oshkosh that way. Fortunately, I heard it come loose and I had rope with me.
 
I had to tie mine down outside away from home Monday and leave it. Chocked both mains, secured the stick full aft, all three tiedown ropes tied well and taut, canopy latched. The only thing that can move is the rudder, because I didn't have my tow bar/rudder gust lock with me. It felt like a little overkill at the time, but winds for that airport are expected to gust to 30 kt today. Still... glad I send that insurance payment.
 
Salty said:
I’m not sure the wind cares. Not much friction when it’s lifting straight up.
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Still not sure if we're having slightly silly fun or discussing this for real, but what the heck... it's early and I've got a nice cup of hot coffee by my side..

When you tie something down from the wind, it's best to "guy out" the lines, rather than have the lines lead vertically to the ground. Lines led vertically have very little resistance to movements in the horizontal plane, and also the most lifting force to pull out whatever anchor they are tied to in or on the ground. "Lifting straight up" would not happen if concrete blocks were used and placed correctly... outboard and forward of the mains' tiedown rings, and aft of the tail tie down. A 45 degree angle of the tiedown guy lines would distribute the forces evenly, balancing the ability of the block to keep the wing from lifting, with reducing the ability of a lifting wing ability to drag the block inboard across the ground. Similarly, the forward and rearward motions would be controlled by leading the mains tiedowns forward and the tail tiedown aft.

I've been blessed with lots of tent camping in high wind areas in sand. Our tent is always the last one standing in near-hurricanes in sand on the OBX. Love the challenge. Another hint... if you need to be tied down in a real blow, and you HAVE to use concrete blocks, use very long tie downs and lead them much farther from the plane, then put a second set of concrete blocks on top of the tie downs closer to the plane. Never had to do that with a plane, but we use that trick when guying out lines on rock.
 
AlphaMike said:
I really wish proper tie down techniques were taught during primary PPL training. It was definitely not covered when I got my PPL.
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I must be lucky. I think it was covered during my 2nd or 3rd lesson.
 
Salty said:
Are you kidding? None of my CFI's even had me touch the mixture for anything but shutting down the engine.
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Tantalum said:
Full rich all the time. Over 5K the red knob got a pathetic half turn to left

Now I lean that thing on the ground so it won't even run over 1,500 rpm!
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Wow.

They taught me to lean on the ground to keep from fouling the plugs. We also leaned in the air, but ROP as the old 172s had only one EGT probe.

They unfortunately didn't teach me much about traveling, like self-serve refueling. Thank goodness for aviation forums. I've learned a lot through them







Wayne
 
flyingron said:
If they connect to the tiedown ring with a non-latching s-hook, you'd best find a better way. Almost lost a rental plane at my first Oshkosh that way. Fortunately, I heard it come loose and I had rope with me.
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Kind of hit-or-miss there. Some of the tie downs have latching s-hooks, some are generic S-hooks from the hardware store. Some of the lines look a little worse for the wear, too, However, once it's secured on their parking lot with their tie downs in place, I absolve myself of liability. If it were my own aircraft, I'd use proper hardware every time (including chocks) if I wasn't storing it in a hangar.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
How many have completed PP without going to a towered airport or vice versa?
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My training was out of a towered airport, but we did most of the landings at nearby untowered airports, so a good mix. Even landed at a Class C on my first dual xc flight and got introduced to clearance and departure. That part they did great. Really helped my IR training.



Wayne
 
wayne said:
They taught me to lean on the ground to keep from fouling the plugs
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I asked about this later. Leaning became a big part of my life when I started flying Cirrus.. and the answer I got from more than one CFI that it's not worth the risk of a student with 15 hours departing with a leaned mixture. The answer didn't really make sense to me because of the whole checklist thing.. but that's what I was told
 
Thinking back, the only reason I learned how to fuel an airplane was when the fuel truck broke down when I was a student and the CFI and I had to use the self serve pump.

But I have been lucky with being shown how to secure the aircraft. I've was shown to chock both wheels so the plane wouldn't pivot. I've never seen or put a wheel chock under a nose wheel. Not sure why a person would do that - most of the weight of the plane is on the mains, and they are more robust to carry the load. As far as tie downs, I've also been shown what knot to use in addition to how to get the rope tensions right.
 
wayne said:
My training was out of a towered airport, but we did most of the landings at nearby untowered airports, so a good mix. Even landed at a Class C on my first dual xc flight and got introduced to clearance and departure. That part they did great. Really helped my IR training.



Wayne
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I did 1 untowered airport, T&G, on leaving a plane flew out of a cloud (partly cloudy VFR day), pass overhead about 100’...my CFI told me this why I hate uncontrolled airspaces. He was a corporate jet pilot...every flight was an IFR flight.
 
DaleB said:
I had to tie mine down outside away from home Monday and leave it. Chocked both mains, secured the stick full aft, all three tiedown ropes tied well and taut, canopy latched. The only thing that can move is the rudder, because I didn't have my tow bar/rudder gust lock with me. It felt like a little overkill at the time, but winds for that airport are expected to gust to 30 kt today. Still... glad I send that insurance payment.
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Bringing my ride home after I bought it - put tiedown lines in the back of the car along with clothes, etc. Got to the rental place, tossed the stuff into the one way rental. Got to the airplane, oops. No rope. Oh, well.
About 3/4 of the way home I run into a line of thunderstorms (weather brief had been "no problems") and had to stop. The airport had tiedown lines, but they were worn, sun rotten, junk (there may have been a string of bad words involved when I tied down with them). Then I got to stand in the FBO watching the line of storms roll in thinking about the POS ropes. And I hadn't even gotten the airplane home yet. Good times.

Oh, chocks - never chock the nose wheel. But then again, I don't have one.

Self serve - There has got to be a better way to enter the N number.
 
I kind of wish more CFI's would teach their students how to work with marshallers when parking on ramps at bigger airports. But that's a tall order because most of the CFI's won't learn how to do it themselves until they stop being a CFI and start flying their first part 135 job.

When I marshalled on a busy GA ramp, I never feared for my safety directing +12k lb airplanes to taxi towards where I was standing. But doing it with a 2500lb puddle jumper piloted by someone who clearly had no idea how to follow the instructions of a ramp guy tightened by butt cheeks every time.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I kind of wish more CFI's would teach their students how to work with marshallers when parking on ramps at bigger airports. But that's a tall order because most of the CFI's won't learn how to do it themselves until they stop being a CFI and start flying their first part 135 job.

When I marshalled on a busy GA ramp, I never feared for my safety directing +12k lb airplanes to taxi towards where I was standing. But doing it with a 2500lb puddle jumper piloted by someone who clearly had no idea how to follow the instructions of a ramp guy tightened by butt cheeks every time.
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Problem often lies with the fact that it generally means flying to an airport with expensive landing fees in order to teach them about marshalling. Why not just have them know the hand signals from the FAR/AIM?
 
SoonerAviator said:
Why not just have them know the hand signals from the FAR/AIM?
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Agree

The hand signals, aren't super complicated. It's like scuba diving hand signals.. it's pretty obvious
 
SoonerAviator said:
Problem often lies with the fact that it generally means flying to an airport with expensive landing fees in order to teach them about marshalling. Why not just have them know the hand signals from the FAR/AIM?
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Because the FAR/AIM doesn't teach you things like calling the FBO when you're 20 minutes out to let them know you're inbound and how long you'll be staying so they can plan for where to park you. And it doesn't teach things like have your landing light on (day or night) when you pull onto the ramp and turn it off (day or night) when you see the marshaller and will then follow their hand signals. And it doesn't teach you things like flash your landing light on then off to let the marshaller know you're ready to taxi out of the parking spot you're in.

Like I said most CFI's won't learn any of that until they get into the right seat of their first 135 gig so its kind of a stretch to expect them to teach it. The under paid meat bag standing in front of your spinning prop sure would appreciate it if more piston pilots better understood how things work on attended ramps.
 
Most of my time is spent teaching people to land without crashing or to fly a cross-country without getting lost. If you want to teach people everything they might need to ever reasonably know a private pilot certificate will take at least 250 hours.
 
I used to tell my students to make sure that it was tied down well, to something really secure. It helped to point out that the wing was designed to lift 2500 pounds off the ground in a 60-MPH wind, and so tying to any object weighing less than thousands of pounds, or anchored deeply in the concrete or soil, was a waste of time. Taildraggers are much worse, too, since their AoA is already ideally set to lift off at low airspeeds.

Another common fault is the use of ropes that are completely insufficient for the job, or ropes or straps that have deteriorated in the sun and rain. As above, they have to resist some powerful pulling. The knots used are also critical.

Stall strips can greatly reduce the lift. I used, on a Champ I had custody of for a few years, long 2x4s with a bit of carpet to protect the wing, tied down with straps around the wing. The boards are placed a bit forward of the max thickness of the wing and will destroy the lift by causing massive turbulence.

We taught students fuelling as well, and the dangers surrounding it. Wearing synthetic jackets in cold weather, for instance, can generate static electricity as you rub against the wing when fuelling. Fuelling anywhere near a thunderstorm is also discouraged; in fact, there's a Canadian law on that one for certain operations.
Fuelling with Passengers on Board
604.83 (1) No person operating an aircraft operated by a private operator shall permit the fuelling of the aircraft while passengers are on board or are embarking or disembarking, unless
<snip>
  • (l) the fuelling is suspended if there is a lightning discharge within eight kilometres of the aerodrome;

There were some other things about fuelling, like not letting the neck of the fuel tank support the nozzle and hose. We had to remove numerous fuel tanks over the years for expensive steam cleaning and welded repairs to cracked aluminum around the neck that leaked fuel into the wing, and broken baffles and fuel sender guard plates in the tank. These things are NOT made like the fuel filler in your car and can't take the weight of that big nozzle and the hose. It will bend the neck and fatigue the aluminum.
 
dmspilot said:
Most of my time is spent teaching people to land without crashing or to fly a cross-country without getting lost. If you want to teach people everything they might need to ever reasonably know a private pilot certificate will take at least 250 hours.
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Dual cross country trips are required. Planning one of those XC's to include a stop on a controlled ramp adds no extra time to the training program. Teaching the student the basics of how to let the marshaller know you see them and are now following their directions takes seconds. If something that dirt simple is too much information for a typical XC student to comprehend, then I fear for us all.

FWIW, on a night lesson, my CFI took me to the same busy GA ramp I would eventually work on because the FBO had a policy of not charging any fees for training flights and it was good opportunity to experience going in and out of a class C airport. But he didn't tell my anything about turning off my landing light so I wouldn't blind the ramp guy or any of the other stuff I mentioned. Because no one ever told him and you can't teach what you don't know.
 
dmspilot said:
Most of my time is spent teaching people to land without crashing or to fly a cross-country without getting lost. If you want to teach people everything they might need to ever reasonably know a private pilot certificate will take at least 250 hours.
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It sure should take somewhat longer than it does. Just the stupid accidents caused by pilots dorking around proves that they don't understand things like accelerated stalls and AOA and carb ice and a lot of other stuff.
 
Tantalum said:
Full rich all the time. Over 5K the red knob got a pathetic half turn to left

Now I lean that thing on the ground so it won't even run over 1,500 rpm!
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The owner of the flight school I'm at said specifically to never lean when flying *his* (wet rental) airplanes - "You can learn how to lean in your own airplane." He explained that he didn't care about the wasted fuel - or even a fouled plug - just wanted to make sure some newbie student didn't burn a cylinder or a valve. "Fuel is cheaper than cylinders."
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Dual cross country trips are required. Planning one of those XC's to include a stop on a controlled ramp adds no extra time to the training program. Teaching the student the basics of how to let the marshaller know you see them and are now following their directions takes seconds. If something that dirt simple is too much information for a typical XC student to comprehend, then I fear for us all.

FWIW, on a night lesson, my CFI took me to the same busy GA ramp I would eventually work on because the FBO had a policy of not charging any fees for training flights and it was good opportunity to experience going in and out of a class C airport. But he didn't tell my anything about turning off my landing light so I wouldn't blind the ramp guy or any of the other stuff I mentioned. Because no one ever told him and you can't teach what you don't know.
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Again, why does it need to be practiced at an airport with controlled ramp. Why not just incorporate that kind of info during a ground lesson or while taxiing? I know to keep strobes and landing light off until the appropriate times, and it's not because I had was taken to a controlled airport to do it. It's because my CFI casually mentioned it when doing the night-flight requirements. Same goes for blinding people in your car with your bright lights . . . I doubt driving instructors are taking kids out at night and practicing "not blinding" oncoming drivers.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Again, why does it need to be practiced at an airport with controlled ramp. Why not just incorporate that kind of info during a ground lesson or while taxiing? I know to keep strobes and landing light off until the appropriate times, and it's not because I had was taken to a controlled airport to do it. It's because my CFI casually mentioned it when doing the night-flight requirements. Same goes for blinding people in your car with your bright lights . . . I doubt driving instructors are taking kids out at night and practicing "not blinding" oncoming drivers.
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Because, people, for the most part, are idiots, and can't figure **** out on their own. Just look at the posts on this board - and we're supposedly more educated than the general populace.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Again, why does it need to be practiced at an airport with controlled ramp. Why not just incorporate that kind of info during a ground lesson or while taxiing?
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I'd take that over the nothing most students get now for sure. But my experience with teaching technical stuff to people has shown me that things which are actually experienced by the student tend to be better retained than things which I've only talked about. So if an actual trip to a ramp could be worked in the curriculum it'd be much more effective IMO.


I know to keep strobes and landing light off until the appropriate times, and it's not because I had was taken to a controlled airport to do it. It's because my CFI casually mentioned it when doing the night-flight requirements.
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IME you are the exception, not the rule. It always amazed me how many piston drivers had no clue they should kill the light before they blinded the guy they were about to taxi towards.
 
This post reminds me of something I saw a few years ago during the aftermath of one of the hurricanes. An electric company truck pulled into the neighborhood and parked on a steep incline. They apparently had a company policy to chock the wheels anytime a vehicle is parked. He set his one chock uphill of the tire! I'm pretty sure I have a picture of that somewhere.
 
pburger said:
This post reminds me of something I saw a few years ago during the aftermath of one of the hurricanes. An electric company truck pulled into the neighborhood and parked on a steep incline. They apparently had a company policy to chock the wheels anytime a vehicle is parked. He set his one chock uphill of the tire! I'm pretty sure I have a picture of that somewhere.
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Speaking of that, what is it with all the cable company/phone company/whatever company putting out an orange cone - even in a fast food restaurant - behind their vans? They think someone is going to try and park behind them in a single lane angle parking spot?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I'd take that over the nothing most students get now for sure. But my experience with teaching technical stuff to people has shown me that things which are actually experienced by the student tend to be better retained than things which I've only talked about. So if an actual trip to a ramp could be worked in the curriculum it'd be much more effective IMO.


IME you are the exception, not the rule. It always amazed me how many piston drivers had no clue they should kill the light before they blinded the guy they were about to taxi towards.
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I also tend to turn my headlights off (leave parking lights on) when in the drive thru at night to avoid having my headlights blinding the driver in front of me via his mirrors. Just figure it's a common courtesy that ain't so common. :)
 
EdFred said:
Speaking of that, what is it with all the cable company/phone company/whatever company putting out an orange cone - even in a fast food restaurant - behind their vans? They think someone is going to try and park behind them in a single lane angle parking spot?
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Chalk it up to company policy. They are required to put that cone out even if they're in a parking spot. Asinine stuff, really, but the result of some legal/top staffer who decided to make it policy because of an incident that happened long ago and probably wouldn't have been stopped by a traffic cone!
 
SoonerAviator said:
Chalk it up to company policy. They are required to put that cone out even if they're in a parking spot. Asinine stuff, really, but the result of some legal/top staffer who decided to make it policy because of an incident that happened long ago and probably wouldn't have been stopped by a traffic cone!
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So did that guy go to ALL the companies and make it policy? :D Every. Single. One does it. (around here at least)
 
EdFred said:
So did that guy go to ALL the companies and make it policy? :D Every. Single. One does it. (around here at least)
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All those companies have one thing in common, insurance. If an insurance company has data that shows companies that put cone out every time they park experience 1.1 fewer incidents/accidents per 100k miles than companies that don't, for sure they're going to offer lower rates to companies that do.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
All those companies have one thing in common, insurance. If an insurance company has data that shows companies that put cone out every time they park experience 1.1 fewer incidents/accidents per 100k miles than companies that don't, for sure they're going to offer lower rates to companies that do.
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I think I'm gonna start moving the cones, just because.
 
EdFred said:
Speaking of that, what is it with all the cable company/phone company/whatever company putting out an orange cone - even in a fast food restaurant - behind their vans? They think someone is going to try and park behind them in a single lane angle parking spot?
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It is a way to force them to do a walk around before getting in and driving off. Much like pilots are supposed to do before getting in and starting the engine. You know, to prevent them from having to try to taxi over a nosewheel chock and such.
 
smv said:
It is a way to force them to do a walk around before getting in and driving off. Much like pilots are supposed to do before getting in and starting the engine. You know, to prevent them from having to try to taxi over a nosewheel chock and such.
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Except it doesn't. There isn't a cone in front of the van, just behind it. And they are walking up from the rear to get to the van. Just grab the cone, toss it in, and off they go.
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. There isn't a cone in front of the van, just behind it. And they are walking up from the rear to get to the van. Just grab the cone, toss it in, and off they go.
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Do they enter through the back door and drive off forward?
 
40YearDream said:
"You can learn how to lean in your own airplane."
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Should you also learn to fly on your own airplane too? I'm sorry but that's a pretty sad attitude. It's the instructor basically admitting that they're not competent enough to teach a student how to read an EGT gauge or to use a checklist or to teach them about, and understand, leaning technique
 
smv said:
Do they enter through the back door and drive off forward?
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Example:
Drive is a one way heading east. Angle parking on the south side of drive nose into a curb. Building is on the north side of drive. Driver returns to vehicle, approaches it from the back, tosses the cone in the van, walks up the driver's side of the van, gets in, backs out into the drive, and leaves. Never walks around the front, never walks around the passenger side. The cone did nothing other than cause them to open up the rear doors and toss it in.
 
EdFred said:
Example:
Drive is a one way heading east. Angle parking on the south side of drive nose into a curb. Building is on the north side of drive. Driver returns to vehicle, approaches it from the back, tosses the cone in the van, walks up the driver's side of the van, gets in, backs out into the drive, and leaves. Never walks around the front, never walks around the passenger side. The cone did nothing other than cause them to open up the rear doors and toss it in.
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You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. Just because they are not using them properly does not negate the reason I gave for thier use.
 
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