HOW NOT TO LAND A MOONEY

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Bill Greenwood

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Bill Greenwood
I was looking back at an Aviation Consumer article on Mooney 231, etc. Some people put forth that a Mooney is hard to land. I never found that to be the case in over 10 years of flying 2 different one. Here's is what one pilot, M W of Horseshoe Bay, Texas writes, " Learning to land the Mooney was problematic for some reason, Coming in with half flaps and adding power prior to touchdown seemed to help. "
No and no, that is exactly to opposite of how to land a Mooney. Its a clean airplane and flaps are not that large, you want full flaps to slow down and power off to touchdown, don't carry power over the runway. I only have one landing in a 231 but might have a 1000 in 201s and rarely a problem with them. Don't approach too fast, cant recall for sure, but I think 70 knots in a 201. I rode with a local CFI who bought an older M20 E, said he had trouble landing and when I flew with him he came in at 90 mph and didn't want to close the throttle.
 
You start slowing on short final with a CFI who only has experience in training aircraft and watch their reaction. I was told the general rule of 1.3Vso is BS.


Tom
 
What would be a good approach speed for a Mooney ?
 
weilke said:
What would be a good approach speed for a Mooney ?
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70 knots for the long and mid bodies, 70 mph for the short bodies. Mooneys aren't particularly difficult to land but they bite when mistreated. They also have a violently different sight picture than other GA aircraft because they sit low.
 
It continues to puzzle me why people think that Mooneys are hard to land. I have no experience with the newer models, but my wife as well as I both find our M20E, with its smooth and direct controls, to be one of the easiest planes to land: I fly the final approach at 80 mph, full flaps, and completely cut power once I have the runway made. I stay at around 80 mph until I round out. At this speed I have good elevator control and still carry enough energy for the plane to float a few hundred feet.
I will then let it float 1/2' or so above the runway until it is done with flying and will then gently put it down. I would think that at least 80% of my landings are greasers.

With a little bit of braking, I can easily take the taxiway 1,400' down the runway at our home base. Approaching at 75 mph and firmer braking, I can turn after 1,000 ft.

Heck, I can also come it at 100 mph - I will need more runway but touch down just as smoothly, since the speed at which the plane will stop flying will be the same.

Honestly, I don't see any issue with landing a Mooney. As long as you don't come in too slow and if you let it touch down only when it's ready, you'll be fine.
 
steingar said:
70 knots for the long and mid bodies, 70 mph for the short bodies. Mooneys aren't particularly difficult to land but they bite when mistreated. They also have a violently different sight picture than other GA aircraft because they sit low.
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These are over the fence speeds I assume, there is no reason to go that slow for entire approach. Best glide is around 85 knots, so if you’re slow too soon you will be dragging it in.


Tom
 
As for landing a Pitts, I have the answers to that of course. First go out to Az and take Budd Davidson's checkout in a Pitts. Next find one of those inflatable balls like a heavy duty beach ball and practice until you can stand on it and balance. Lastly, get on your snowboard and go down some rails until you are good at it.
I must admit I have never flown a Pitts, I have one Eagle flight and used to own a Rose Parakeet, small acro biplane a little like a Pitts, but I have never flown Pitts. I can fly lots of planes from little to prop fighters, but not sure how confident I would be in a Pitts. I should do it some time, but I guess I don't wan to spoil my history which has been pretty good.
So you tell us how to do it and if it is really that hard?
 
Clip4 said:
Couple reasons people have trouble landing a number of high performance or complex airplanes.

A. They can’t manage airspeed.
B. See A.
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C. Trim

One of the issues I've seen on transitioning pilots (and even student pilots) is a lack of trim usage. While you may be able to muscle around the trainer and make an acceptable landing, higher performance aircraft with more variance between landing and pattern speeds require much more strength unless you trim and trim often. So often you see these aircraft three point, or worse wheelbarrow, because the pilot didn't have enough physical strength to flare appropriately.
 
Outside of Bonanza and PA28 / 172 I've been told some variation of "X" is hard to land.. whether that's a Tiger, 182, 210, Cirrus, Lance, Mooney, etc. It tends to happen with planes people are less familiar with, and especially with the higher performing planes, like Mooney.. or really anything that isn't coming in at 65 knots or isn't a flying wall of drag

Part of the issue as well is many people learn to fly on pitiful examples of airplanes, like 172.. the sloppy and forgiving handling might be good as a trainer, but it prepares you not for when you purchase your Mooney (or whatever)... all excited that you found a great plane for $60K so you can finally quit your club and fly your own plane
 
If you learn in something like a 172 which is forgiving of much of sloppy handling, you just have to say to yourself that I am going to fly this almost perfect, if final approach is 60 knots be 60 maybe 61 or 2 not 65 and for sure not 58. I have seen some good pilots who learn in 172s. One of the best stick and rudder pilots I flew with was ex Navy Lt John Reynolds who had never been in ANY PLANE until he went to basic flight school and started his first lesson in an SNJ! He learned to fly Corsairs off carriers was on Bon Homme Richard in Korean War.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
These are over the fence speeds I assume, there is no reason to go that slow for entire approach. Best glide is around 85 knots, so if you’re slow too soon you will be dragging it in.
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Best glide in mine is roughly 90 knots, in the POH it's 105 mph. As far as pattern speeds, I use 90 on downwind, 80 on base and yes 75 to 70 over the numbers. You can come in faster, you'll just float a little more. Those numbers are in mph for the short bodies, I thing knots for the later models.

My one piece of advice for novice Mooney pilots is to slow down, lower the gear and deploy the flaps before you enter the downwind. Landing patterns can be distracting. Bad idea to be distracted before you've lowered the gear.
 
steingar said:
Best glide in mine is roughly 90 knots, in the POH it's 105 mph.
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Remember, that’s at max gross weight, which most people don’t do that often, for me, my usual weight...it’s 85 knots.


Tom
 
I haven't flown a Mooney in over 10 years. I would be willing to bet I could get in a 201 today, if normal weather and runway and make a landing on the first flight that was a 9 or 10. Really good airplane, and by the way I would use 70 knots on final but be slowing as I crossed the runway end. I would not hold 70 all the way to touchdown. I cant find my manual right now but guess stall, VSO is likely 60 k or so.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
I haven't flown a Mooney in over 10 years. I would be willing to bet I could get in a 201 today, if normal weather and runway and make a landing on the first flight that was a 9 or 10. Really good airplane, and by the way I would use 70 knots on final but be slowing as I crossed the runway end. I would not hold 70 all the way to touchdown. I cant find my manual right now but guess stall, VSO is likely 60 k or so.
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63 mph, 55 knots.

Tom
 
steingar said:
70 knots for the long and mid bodies, 70 mph for the short bodies. Mooneys aren't particularly difficult to land but they bite when mistreated. They also have a violently different sight picture than other GA aircraft because they sit low.
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Agree with you the speeds.

But I'n not sure about the violently different sight picture. The short and midbodies have a pitch attitude from the front seat is very similar to a Diamond DA40, oly slightly more nose low than a Warrior or Archer, and quite a bit more nose up than a Cirrus or, from what I recall, a Tiger. On the longbodies, it depends. I haven't flown the later ones but the first generation Ovation touches down in an attitude surprisingly like a 172 or 182 because of a combination of a high panel and the relatively high nose up attitude when sitting o the ground.
 
Tantalum said:
Outside of Bonanza and PA28 / 172 I've been told some variation of "X" is hard to land.. whether that's a Tiger, 182, 210, Cirrus, Lance, Mooney, etc. It tends to happen with planes people are less familiar with, and especially with the higher performing planes, like Mooney.. or really anything that isn't coming in at 65 knots or isn't a flying wall of drag

Part of the issue as well is many people learn to fly on pitiful examples of airplanes, like 172.. the sloppy and forgiving handling might be good as a trainer, but it prepares you not for when you purchase your Mooney (or whatever)... all excited that you found a great plane for $60K so you can finally quit your club and fly your own plane
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I think the biggest part of the issue is people who get used to flying one thing. People who have flown (not just once) 6 different make/models will have an easier time with a transition than folks who have flown only one or two.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think the biggest part of the issue is people who get used to flying one thing. People who have flown (not just once) 6 different make/models will have an easier time with a transition than folks who have flown only one or two.
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True... but swing the pendulum the other way and you get people who make dumb mistakes.. our club has vast array of single, multi, RG, etc., and often times the cause of dumb ramp mistakes and fender benders, gear ups, etc., are blamed on not enough proficiency in a given type

But yeah.. knowing how different planes handle and feel in the air will better equip you overall than just knowing how one type flies
 
I had a limited number of hours in a short body 201. What I saw, at our weight, was a distinct increase in drag going 85mph and below. Above 85mph it had a flat glide. Below, the rate and angle of sink bumped up noticeably making approaches much easier to judge and hitting a spot a more precise exercise


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Bill Watson said:
I had a limited number of hours in a short body 201.
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There is no such thing, A-E short body, F-K mid body, the rest are long bodies. The 201 is a J, a 205 is a later model J.
There are short bodies with modified cowlings, occasionally they try to past themselves off as 201s when go to sell and up their prices accordingly...but I can’t believe that works.


Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
There is no such thing, A-E short body, F-K mid body, the rest are long bodies. The 201 is a J, a 205 is a later model J.
There are short bodies with modified cowlings, occasionally they try to past themselves off as 201s when go to sell and up their prices accordingly...but I can’t believe that works.


Tom
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I’ve always admired their wings, liked the little bit I flew but don’t know them at all.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I have a bunch of hours in a variety of Mooneys. I even sent at least a couple Commercial applicants for their checkrides in them.

Nothing that tricky about landing them, as long as you don’t zoom into ground effect with a bunch of extra speed. Then, the rubber doughnut shock absorbers will spring you back in the air pretty quickly if you touch down too fast. One used to more compliant oleo struts may be caught by surprise.

That said, I think I’ve porpoised maybe once in the last couple of decades and it was in a Mooney. I was flaring and fully intended to keep holding it off but inadvertently touched down flat. I think I was so used to the light pitch control on my Light Sport that I just didn’t pull hard enough on the yoke. Anyway, bounced, bounced again and then went around. Next one worked out fine.

So, nothing especially “tricky”, but they’re not very forgiving of bad technique.
 
FastEddieB said:
I think I was so used to the light pitch control on my Light Sport that I just didn’t pull hard enough on the yoke. Anyway, bounced, bounced again and then went around. Next one worked out fine.
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Actually, it takes very little yoke to arrest the decent and set the landing attitude... at least in my C. This fact is even noted in the POH. I’m surprised and happy that you were “allowed” two whole bounces...
 
FastEddieB said:
That said, I think I’ve porpoised maybe once in the last couple of decades and it was in a Mooney. I was flaring and fully intended to keep holding it off but inadvertently touched down flat. I think I was so used to the light pitch control on my Light Sport that I just didn’t pull hard enough on the yoke. Anyway, bounced, bounced again and then went around. Next one worked out fine..
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Lucky you didn't go for the third. You'd have gotten a prop strike as a nice prize. Like I said, Mooneys bite if mistreated.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Once I’m settled into a Mooney I don’t find anything to be difficult until it’s time to get out.
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Yeah, that. Sometimes, if I've been in the plane for a couple of hours, it's best to just kinda roll out onto the wing walk on all fours and then stand up. Makes four star impressions at the red carpet FBOs lol!

FlySince9 said:
Actually, it takes very little yoke to arrest the decent and set the landing attitude... at least in my C. This fact is even noted in the POH. I’m surprised and happy that you were “allowed” two whole bounces...
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Same with my J, it takes very little yoke pressure and almost NO movement to arrest decent during the roundout. Oh, and yes, you get two bounces for free in a Mooney! The third entitles you to buy an engine teardown.
 
FlySince9 said:
Actually, it takes very little yoke to arrest the decent and set the landing attitude... at least in my C. This fact is even noted in the POH.
Click to expand...

I think this was an M20E with an owner-installed turbo. Maybe a bit nose-heavier? Or possibly I had neglected to trim enough.

I’m surprised and happy that you were “allowed” two whole bounces...
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Though not a hard-and-fast rule, it sure seems that it’s the third one that gets you!

Anyway, the culprit...

7542698730_cf47bf8fc0_z.jpg
 
FastEddieB said:
Though not a hard-and-fast rule, it sure seems that it’s the third one that gets you!
Click to expand...

yea, I mis-represented that.. it’s early and I’m only on my first cup of Joe. It is bounce, bounce, Oh sh—... but the first one will let you know you blew it and there will be another...
 
FastEddieB said:
I think this was an M20E with an owner-installed turbo. Maybe a bit nose-heavier? Or possibly I had neglected to trim enough.



Though not a hard-and-fast rule, it sure seems that it’s the third one that gets you!

Anyway, the culprit...

7542698730_cf47bf8fc0_z.jpg
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Love the yellow, actually!
 
If you bounce a mooney three times, you’re really doing it wrong. You’re WAY too fast or have way too much power in. It’s why landing with power is bad, even though it does let you “grease” it in if all goes well.
If you’re 75 over the fence in a short body, you can’t possibly bounce 3 times. When you hit, you stick; at worst a small bounce.
 
Salty said:
If you bounce a mooney three times, you’re really doing it wrong. You’re WAY too fast or have way too much power in. It’s why landing with power is bad, even though it does let you “grease” it in if all goes well.
If you’re 75 over the fence in a short body, you can’t possibly bounce 3 times. When you hit, you stick; at worst a small bounce.
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I never land with power, and in my mid-body J, I actually prefer to be over the fence at 65kts or so as that speed just works for my airplane. Even after a long power off decent, (IE dropping in pretty fast), there's still plenty of energy at 65kts for a nice roundout. If I'm light, the winds are light, and I'm aiming for a short field, I'll even let it drop to 60kts or so over the fence.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I never land with power, and in my mid-body J, I actually prefer to be over the fence at 65kts or so as that speed just works for my airplane. Even after a long power off decent, (IE dropping in pretty fast), there's still plenty of energy at 65kts for a nice roundout. If I'm light, the winds are light, and I'm aiming for a short field, I'll even let it drop to 60kts or so over the fence.
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In my older model it’s mph, so 75mph is closer to 65 knots, 75 over the fence means 70 over the threshold....
 
In general, landing with power tends to be a crutch, and I frown on it on general principle.

That said, with the proper airspeed, a bit of power actually lets you land a bit more slowly in most planes by keeping the elevator effective at slower speeds. It's why when soft field landings are taught with a tad of power left in to hold the nose up, the plane will actually touch down more slowly than power off.
 
Pro pointers on getting out of a Mooney with your dignity intact:
DO NOT use the door as a crutch, it’s not meant for that.
Roll over, putting right knee on the copilot seat, right hand on fuselage or seat back, left hand on fuselage or use handheld.
Step onto the wing with left foot, lift yourself up.
One more thing, don’t slam the door close when getting in.

Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
One more thing, don’t slam the door close when getting in.
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I took another board member for a ride in the J, and before I could shout "Don't slam the door" he slammed it nice and hard like he does on the 172's he rents. I think I died a little, but luckily no damage. Now I mention it before even getting in the plane.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Pro pointers on getting out of a Mooney with your dignity intact:
DO NOT use the door as a crutch, it’s not meant for that.
Roll over, putting right knee on the copilot seat, right hand on fuselage or seat back, left hand on fuselage or use handheld.
Step onto the wing with left foot, lift yourself up.
One more thing, don’t slam the door close when getting in.

Tom
Click to expand...
Sounds like you were writing instructions for getting out of an Archer! <];-D
 
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