Now this I could do if I could find someone to help me this much. That's what I've been wondering: is there a way to sort of create the Synergy Air builder assist program in my own garage & save money (they want tons of $$ for their program/space/tools).
How much build help can I pay for?
- Thread starter golfmogul
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I know its accelerated at Synergy & the like - I talked to them at length - its their price (and location) that are the killers - I was saying it would still take me years (likely) if I was to attempt to re-create the mentoring type experience Synergy offers ... but do it in my own garage.
CJones
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You can QB a -10 without paid support in a couple of years if you're dedicated to building. You won't have much of a social life in those two years, but it's doable. It definitely helps if you can do the work at home rather than at the hangar - makes it much easier steal a few minutes here and there to rivet a couple of pieces together.
As others have indirectly mentioned - don't go into building an airplane with the mindset that it is a magical shortcut to an inexpensive high performance airplane. If your only goal is to get the airplane at the end, you'll burn out and won't be able to power through the tough spots to complete the build. Building can be tough and frustrating at times. You better have some inkling of liking the build process to get through it.
The upside is that in the end you do get a (relatively) inexpensive high performance airplane out of the deal that you know literally inside and out. I'm not trying to tell you not to build - my dad and I have built two planes - and I love that we did the process together. We did some work on one of the planes over the last week and it was great that he could be working on one area and me working in another and we both know what each other is doing and both know the intricate details of the plane itself.
BTW - the 'RV grin' is a real thing.
As others have indirectly mentioned - don't go into building an airplane with the mindset that it is a magical shortcut to an inexpensive high performance airplane. If your only goal is to get the airplane at the end, you'll burn out and won't be able to power through the tough spots to complete the build. Building can be tough and frustrating at times. You better have some inkling of liking the build process to get through it.
The upside is that in the end you do get a (relatively) inexpensive high performance airplane out of the deal that you know literally inside and out. I'm not trying to tell you not to build - my dad and I have built two planes - and I love that we did the process together. We did some work on one of the planes over the last week and it was great that he could be working on one area and me working in another and we both know what each other is doing and both know the intricate details of the plane itself.
BTW - the 'RV grin' is a real thing.
Juliet Hotel
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@CJones nailed it. If you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy. RV10's aren't so plentiful that there's always a dozen for sale at any given moment. But there are a lot of them out there and they do show up for sale. Setup an email alert for RV10 at all the trade-a-plane type sites. Check the classifieds at VAF daily and have your cash ready when one shows up. It might take a few months. Just be patient.
unsafervguy
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here is what it comes down to. we have it pretty easy here in the us as far as EAB and the FAA. try building in some other countries. I for one do not want anybody putting that at risk because they are bending the rules to build airplanes for hire. The FAA knows what is going on and are after some of them. The FAA has no real problem with serial builders as long as they go by the rules. but when they get fed up they will go get an order from a judge and go to vans and hand it ti them and say show us where joe builder paid for 10 kits. then when they start matching serial numbers and records some people are going to be in trouble, and some airplanes are going to get their AW certs revoked. then the hammer comes down on all EAB's. If you want to build airplanes go ahead, buy the kit build it, get the AW in your name and sell it. totally legal. just don't have somebody order the kit, pay for it, ship it to you, get paid to build it and have the AW have the checkwriters name on it. that is not legal.
as to paying people to help, do what you want, but remember, if the DAR or fed thinks it was not build by persons for education and decides that A EAB cert will not be issued you are screwed. play by the rules or the rules will get changed to rules we all do not want.
as to paying people to help, do what you want, but remember, if the DAR or fed thinks it was not build by persons for education and decides that A EAB cert will not be issued you are screwed. play by the rules or the rules will get changed to rules we all do not want.
Kenny Phillips
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It turns out that the FAA isn't strict at all on this one aspect of "homebuilding".
hindsight2020
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Just brainstorming here, but perhaps allow a Repairman-Maintenance training footprint equivalent for EAB non-builders as currently afforded to S-LSA people, and this 51% gatekeeping kabuki becomes moot/self-limited, I would think.
DMD3.
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I don’t even see the difference in paying someone to build the kit vs. buying one that’s already built. Why does this 51% rule even exist? (This question is probably as old as the hills)
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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The FAA is regulating intent. You say "Dude, build this for me, I will pay". Then Dude is doing it for the money, not for "recreation or education". On the other hand, Dude says "Wow, I had so much fun building this that I want to sell it so I can build another." That's a whole different world.
The 51% rule applies to getting an airworthiness certificate for the airplane and has nothing to do with the repairman / maintenance stuff.
DMD3.
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Still, why is that such a bad thing? Wouldn’t it actually be safer to hire a pro build it vs. attempting to build it ourselves?
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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The intent of the experimental amateur built rule is to allow people to build their own airplanes for recreation or education - not be a way to work around the type certification process.
OkieAviator
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Maybe for some, if they're bad with tools. For me personally I trust my workmanship over someone who isn't going to be flying in it. I did use A&Ps to review engine installation and some other items... well A&Ps I can trust because in my time of plane ownership I've gone through some A&Ps I wouldn't trust to change the oil in my lawn mower.
Juliet Hotel
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Nope. The quality of kit build is either going to acceptable or it isn't. If it's acceptable, it'll be just as airworthy as any other airplane. And if it isn't, the DAR isn't going to give you a pink slip for it and it isn't going to fly until the sub-par build issues are made airworthy. Unless you're going to fly it illegally, a poorly built kit is actually safer than one built to spec because a poorly built kit isn't going to get signed off to fly.
hindsight2020
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Yeah, in CandyLand maybe. We have at least one instance by a dearly departed professional peer of mine, who perished with brother and almost took out the latter's wife and newborn in the rear compartment, where his NTSB-uncovered shoddy manufacturing of his EAB (composite work specifically) was listed as a contributing factor to the separation of anchoring, cabin fracture modes and full/partial ejection of the occupants (deceased/surviving respectively) during the crash landing attempt. Never heard of that DAR getting called to the dance floor.
Juliet Hotel
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I knew the moment I posted it that someone would come along with a whatta 'bout that one time a guy my neighbor's boss knew crashed and they said....
Doesn't change my thoughts on it though.
OkieAviator
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How could a DAR be responsible for that? There are lots of places to high shotty work on an airplane. That's not specific to EABs either. Overhauling my old 172 I found lots of issues that could have ended in my demise if left unresolved. These weren't obvious issues like gas leaking into the cockpit either.
Juliet Hotel
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Think about the context of the question. We're not talking about someone knowing they're doing sub par work and attempting to hide it in some way. The comment was in so many words, I don't trust that my work will be as good as that of a professional.
There are indeed individuals who have done work on kits that was well below the quality even a first year A&P student would produce. I've seen some of those projects. Note I used the word projects, not airplanes. Their work was bad. And at some point, someone who knew what they were doing looked over the project and told them it was bad. The choice then becomes rework the project to get it up to snuff or give up on it. Most of the time, people end up giving up, the project gets sold for cheap to someone with better skills who salvages what ever bits and pieces can be salvaged and rebuilds the rest from new parts. And those junk parts end up hanging on the wall for all to admire when they come by to see the project. I've not seen where there are significant number of home builts breaking up in flight and coming down in pieces because someone put the tail together with a bunch of bad rivets. I suppose it could happen without anyone catching it, but I've not seen it to be common.
Tarheelpilot
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This is a good example of why I don’t like composite experimental aircraft. I’ll stick with tube& fabric or all metal. Much easier to determine quality of the build. Glass/composite can look good while being really bad.
Stewartb
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In many cases it is. My DAR encouraged me to seek pro assistance for parts of my build I wasn't totally proficient at. But at the end of the project the score sheet still needs to favor the builder and the builder gets to sign a federal form that attests to it. Using pro assistance and making the 51% of points isn't difficult. My best advice to anyone considering an E-AB build is to not pay attention to comments from guys who've never done it. There is a lot of misinformation on internet aviation chat sites.
hindsight2020
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The irony of course is that much of the pearl-clutching against the jist of your quoted poster's rhetorical question, is in fact coming from bUiLdErS. So I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence, but for a whole different reason.