How much build help can I pay for?

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golfmogul

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golfmogul
I have heard/read from a few sources that its ok for an owner/builder to pay friends or others to help as long as the ppl they pay aren't professionals (in which case they couldn't do more than 49% of the build). Is this true? If so, is there any reason why someone couldn't pay other home builders who have experience to mentor & help them build an RV, or even to hire a handyman-type person to help lots on the build? I've been searching & not finding definitive & clear answers on this from an authoritative source (like FAR). I'll keep looking - in the meantime, would love feedback here b/c it seems dumb for me to buy a 4 seater (like a mooney or something) when I could instead order an RV 10 QB kit & almost immediately start building the empennage w/my kids help & with one or two paid skilled (but not pro) helpers & then receive the QB body + wings 8-9 months from now & keep 2-3 helpers working tons with me (I have plenty of time weekdays and weekends, am single & mostly retired) ... seems like it could be finished in 18-24 months from now with many (skilled) helping hands. I'd have many checks & balances in the process, never allowing work to go forward without review by me and (for bigger stuff that is harder to correct/reverse later, I'd have an experienced Vans builder as a Mentor come & do periodic checks on things before we pass critical assembly points). I know many of you purists will say "don't build it unless you're up for decades of blood, sweat, and tears building every piece of it yourself & doing every rivet yourself ... that's how you know you're a true enthusiast & builder not just a flyer. But I know myself, and I'm never going to be that guy working for 15 yrs on it alone. I just can't stand settling right now for a plane that is worse in so many ways for my needs IMO (and wants) when it seems like I could approach it this other way (i.e. paying for lots of consistent help) and in 2 yrs or slightly less, have the plane of my dreams to fly my family around in. Could this work? Plz go easy on me if I'm missing something obvious etc - I'll fly my first dual XC as a student pilot tomorrow so I know that I don't even know what I don't know at this point
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(thx in advance for the comments ... this forum has already been incredibly helpful)

I wonder how Synergy Air and others like them (quick-build assist programs) make it work? I've talked with them & if it weren't for the cost, I'd be all over it. They're clearly commercial help, right? The question is, what constitutes commercial help vs amateur & can it still be amateur 'for entertainment or education' if paid? I'll keep digging but seems if I had a few friends or local EAA ppl help me & paid them a bit to teach me while they help work on it, ... seems I could be just fine. Curious if anyone else here has done it like this, out of their garage, paying for help, etc.


seems like these sources would suggest I can do what I'm describing here.

http://www.faa-aircraft-certificatio...quirement.html

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-bui...1-percent-rule

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...se14.1.21_1191

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/...st_job_aid.pdf
 
golfmogul said:
......The question is, what constitutes commercial help vs amateur & can it still be amateur 'for entertainment or education' if paid? ...
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From what I've been able to find out, it seems like services like Synergy, Axsys, and even Glassair's "Two Weeks To Taxi" program are only there to "help" you with the technical aspects and special tooling. In other words, you're paying them to supervise you and give technical guidance, and "assist" as needed. They are not building it for you.
 
wilkersk said:
From what I've been able to find out, it seems like services like Synergy, Axsys, and even Glassair's builder assist program are only in business to "help" you with the technical aspects and special tooling. In other words, you're paying them to supervise you and give technical guidance, and "assist" as needed. They are not building it for you.
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That's not what they say when you call them - very different in fact
 
The so called 51% rule has nothing to do with putting in 51% of the hours required to build the aircraft.
Look at AC 20-27G appendix 8. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_20-27G.pdf This is what your DAR should use to determine if you are eligible for an airworthiness certificate.
There are 8 pages of "tasks" that you add up to get to 51%. The thing is that each task in the list counts equally - fabricating the fuselage skins counts the same as assembling the control stick even though one task takes a week and the other an hour or two.

edit: Work your kids do (assuming you don't pay them) falls under the Am-Builder category.

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I don't think I've ever seen this chart before.

Assuming you're buying a kit with match drilled holes where all you do is rivet parts together, it seems like most of the fabrication was done elsewhere. Does that count against the 49% and if so, does the kit manufacturer tell you how much of the percentage they used?

Of course, building the airframe is probably only about 35-40% of the total build anyway, but still...
 
@golfmogul: in a way, I understand where you're coming from. There have been several times I've been really frustrated with my build. Its hard to get even a EAA tech counselor to come out to look at my project. And now days, when you email the kit manufacturer with questions, they seem to have pat answers, carefully worded to comply with company risk-management guidelines. When you work a full time job and keep the S.O. happy, trying to squeeze in a few hours of your free time on the build is nearly impossible. Then, you run into never-ending problems. I've been working on my build for 5 years, and thats not including the years my empennage kit spent in storage because of a career change, subsequent layoffs, the need to pay for kids' college tuition and family health issues.

So, when you talk about wanting to "hire" someone to help you build, I know where you're coming from. And in all sincerity, I believe you'd be money (and years) ahead if you just bought one already built. Although you won't be able to get the repairman certificate for it, you can still do all your own maintenance. You'll just have to pay to have an annual condition inspection done.
 
bflynn said:
I don't think I've ever seen this chart before.

Assuming you're buying a kit with match drilled holes where all you do is rivet parts together, it seems like most of the fabrication was done elsewhere. Does that count against the 49% and if so, does the kit manufacturer tell you how much of the percentage they used?

Of course, building the airframe is probably only about 35-40% of the total build anyway, but still...
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The parts the kit manufacturer fabricated and drilled count against the 51%. But most kit manufacturers have worked it out so that that their part doesn't exceed the maximum.
 
bflynn said:
I don't think I've ever seen this chart before.

Assuming you're buying a kit with match drilled holes where all you do is rivet parts together, it seems like most of the fabrication was done elsewhere. Does that count against the 49% and if so, does the kit manufacturer tell you how much of the percentage they used?

Of course, building the airframe is probably only about 35-40% of the total build anyway, but still...
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Exactly my question - b/c it was very recently announced that the RV 10 kit will soon start shipping with match drilled holes like the 12 and 14 kits have had now for a while (which has made so many ppl rave about how much easier that makes them & time it saves them)
 
wilkersk said:
@golfmogul: in a way, I understand where you're coming from. There have been several times I've been really frustrated with my build. Its hard to get even a EAA tech counselor to come out to look at my project. And now days, when you email the kit manufacturer with questions, they seem to have pat answers, carefully worded to comply with company risk-management guidelines. When you work a full time job and keep the S.O. happy, trying to squeeze in a few hours of your free time on the build is nearly impossible. Then, you run into never-ending problems. I've been working on my build for 5 years, and thats not including the years my empennage kit spent in storage because of a career change, subsequent layoffs, the need to pay for kids' college tuition and family health issues.

So, when you talk about wanting to "hire" someone to help you build, I know where you're coming from. And in all sincerity, I believe you'd be money (and years) ahead if you just bought one already built. Although you won't be able to get the repairman certificate for it, you can still do all your own maintenance. You'll just have to pay to have an annual condition inspection done.
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Wish I could find an RV 10 for sale. The last 2 went for super high prices. Of the two listed now, one has been sold, the other is out of the country (S. Africa I think)
 
TCABM said:
Thanks. The entire circular is informative including pages 8-9 which contain valuable information relating to commercial assistance policy and interpretation of requirements in the table.
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And here it is - thank you. This seems clear and definitive .. and authoritative. Seems clear that anyone paid to help counts as commercial & if they do more than "demonstrate & educate" it becomes commercial labor that counts against the 51% self/amateur build rqmt. This is the most clear answer I've found so far that tells me the idea I had isn't ok to pursue. Thx for posting it.
 
We've had a couple of these in our EAA chapter. What they do is have everything laid out in order, step-by-setp, day by day. All the parts, the tools, equipment, etc. And there's someone there to point out what to do next. You're doing the work but with expert guidance and resources.
 
Now then, if you want an RV-12, that can be completely built for you as an S-LSA. Then you go to LSA repairman school and you're all good. But that leaves you two seats short.
 
murphey said:
We've had a couple of these in our EAA chapter. What they do is have everything laid out in order, step-by-setp, day by day. All the parts, the tools, equipment, etc. And there's someone there to point out what to do next. You're doing the work but with expert guidance and resources.
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Now that sounds like something I could do - just not sure I can afford to pay someone for that much time to stand over my shoulder all day for years educating me & demonstrating new skills & making sure I do it all correctly/safely.
 
golfmogul said:
Now that sounds like something I could do - just not sure I can afford to pay someone for that much time to stand over my shoulder all day for years educating me & demonstrating new skills & making sure I do it all correctly/safely.
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It's not for years - you go to the factory or the company that does this, for 10-14 days. It's an accelerated build process at their facility.
 
If you're not interested in getting a repairman cert for it, you can probably find an A&P or repeat builder who wants a big project and work out a deal to have them build it for you 100%. Probably won't be cheap though.
 
murphey said:
We've had a couple of these in our EAA chapter. What they do is have everything laid out in order, step-by-setp, day by day. All the parts, the tools, equipment, etc. And there's someone there to point out what to do next. You're doing the work but with expert guidance and resources.
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This is how those builder assist operations work. Same with some kit builders you have to go to their factory and work with them over periods of time. Based on some videos I've seen they're doing more than just laying out tools. One for example was an avionics install and the owner/builder was working a coax termination and in the background were two guys laying out and terminating an entire harness.

In terms of paying people to 'assist' you and do work on your project you are accurate in how do you define a 'professional'? I'm a professional, however not a professional plane builder. Stands to reason you could pay me to help out with your project. So unless you're hiring someone working out on the Textron factory floor I would argue that most people you find to assist aren't 'professional plane builders'.

Specific to RV-10s, if you don't want to pay the $250K+ that I see used ones out there on the market for, then you're probably not going to want to pay for someone to build one for you. Even with the final sides holes there is still a lot of match drilling, dimpling and cleaning involved. Maybe it saves you 50 hours, you'll still looking at 1000 hours of labor just for a bare bones build.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
If you're not interested in getting a repairman cert for it, you can probably find an A&P or repeat builder who wants a big project and work out a deal to have them build it for you 100%. Probably won't be cheap though.
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Yeah, you could. You might even get away with it. But if the FAA catches on, then you are parting out a brand new airplane.
 
"Professionals
OkieAviator said:
This is how those builder assist operations work. Same with some kit builders you have to go to their factory and work with them over periods of time. Based on some videos I've seen they're doing more than just laying out tools. One for example was an avionics install and the owner/builder was working a coax termination and in the background were two guys laying out and terminating an entire harness.

In terms of paying people to 'assist' you and do work on your project you are accurate in how do you define a 'professional'? I'm a professional, however not a professional plane builder. Stands to reason you could pay me to help out with your project. So unless you're hiring someone working out on the Textron factory floor I would argue that most people you find to assist aren't 'professional plane builders'.

Specific to RV-10s, if you don't want to pay the $250K+ that I see used ones out there on the market for, then you're probably not going to want to pay for someone to build one for you. Even with the final sides holes there is still a lot of match drilling, dimpling and cleaning involved. Maybe it saves you 50 hours, you'll still looking at 1000 hours of labor just for a bare bones build.
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Professionals get paid. If you are an amateur you are doing it for recreation or education not for pay. Your A&P buddy can help you if he's doing it for the fun of it but if he is getting paid that counts against your 51%
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Professionals get paid. If you are an amateur you are doing it for recreation or education not for pay. Your A&P buddy can help you if he's doing it for the fun of it but if he is getting paid that counts against your 51%
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I would disagree. If I'm paying people to come to my garage, kids down the street, my mother... whatever. I would not consider them professionals and therefore not list them on 'commercial assistance'. Would be curious if any DAR has ever rejected an application based on them thinking too much professional assistance was utilized.
 
OkieAviator said:
I would disagree. If I'm paying people to come to my garage, kids down the street, my mother... whatever. I would not consider them professionals and therefore not list them on 'commercial assistance'. Would be curious if any DAR has ever rejected an application based on them thinking too much professional assistance was utilized.
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21.191 g "Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
If they didn't do it "solely for their own education or recreation." then it doesn't matter if you think they are "professional" or not.
On the other hand, if you simply fail to list them in column B of appendix 8 and everyone keeps their mouth shut, then you are likely to get away with it.

And, yes. DARs have rejected applications based on a lack of "solely for their own education or recreation" content. A recent issue of Sport Aviation (August 2020?) has an article by a DAR talking about some of his rejections. Rare, but not unknown.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
21.191 g "Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
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I would argue that as long as the person is getting educated and learning about how to construct a kit that they can claim the monetary compensation is secondary and isn't the sole purpose of them helping. To me unless the FAA flat out states "if they're paid, they're pro!" that you will have a number of people skirting around that and paying people for their help.

If you're referring to the write up Vic Syracuse wrote I think that had more to do with mechanical/structural/build quality issues.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Yeah, you could. You might even get away with it. But if the FAA catches on, then you are parting out a brand new airplane.
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You are correct. But I think you'd have to be pretty dang stupid to get caught. Pilots and A&P mechanic friends partner up on owning airplanes all the time. Sometimes one airplane partner owns a much larger share of the airplane than the other. Sometimes those airplanes are kits. Sometimes, one kit partner does way more of the work than the other kit partner. Sometimes one airplane partner buys the other airplane partner out at some point after the airplane is built and flying. What's illegal about any of that?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
What's illegal about any of that?
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Nothing. There is no rule that one person has to build "51%". There is no rule that you can't sell a complete or partially complete project.

The FAA is attempting to regulate intent. So, yes, you would think you would have to be stupid to get caught. OTOH, at one point Jason Ellis (Building a RV-10 on youtube) talked about building them for other people as a career. Out loud. Recorded. Viewed by tens of thousands.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, yes, you would think you would have to be stupid to get caught. OTOH, at one point Jason Ellis (Building a RV-10 on youtube) talked about building them for other people as a career. Out loud. Recorded. Viewed by tens of thousands.
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So are you saying Jason is stupid? :confused2:
 
51% is just that. Nobody cares who did the other 49%. Factory parts, professional assistance, etc are just fine as long as they don't exceed 49%. The only thing that matters on the day the DAR comes out to inspect your plane and issue the airworthiness cert is that you present the FAA score sheet and use the FAA formula to determine whether you did 51% of the project. That's the first and only time the DAR will see the plane. I reached out to my DAR prior to jumping into the project so I had a good idea of what he wanted for paperwork and builder log. Inspection day was fun.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
No, I'm saying he wasn't aware (at the time) of the rules. So, yes, I'm saying you can eff up if you aren't aware of the stupid little details.
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Gotcha. I remember watching that video. He seemed pretty up to speed on the rules as I recall but it was a while ago so I won't swear to it.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Gotcha. I remember watching that video. He seemed pretty up to speed on the rules as I recall but it was a while ago so I won't swear to it.
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Had to make sure I didn't totally misremember :)
In this one (2017) he talks about considering a career

But here (2019), he is a lot more up to speed.
 
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I tell you what... Jason Ellis helped me immensely though my empennege. I think I got my kit around 6 months behind him so I was able to read the plans, watch his video and then work through the part. Several times I went back and watched his steps.

Curious what stops someone from say building an RV-8, then selling it as soon as it pasts inspection and then starting another build. I personally can't see how that would ever be lucrative but I suppose if you build the same model enough you would get fairly efficient... hmmm I wonder how fast I could build another 10.
 
golfmogul said:
Wish I could find an RV 10 for sale. The last 2 went for super high prices. Of the two listed now, one has been sold, the other is out of the country (S. Africa I think)
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That's the thing though, you really don't "save" very much at all, over buying, when you build your first one. I could buy an RV-8 equipped how I intend to equip the one I'm building for $110k -$125k (I suspect Mr. VanGrunsven rolls his eyes every time he hears this). I will have over $90k invested in mine by the time it flies. And, that is with a 'not-new' engine and Skyview Classics instead of HDX.

I'm paying for the experience of building. When you buy one already built, you're paying for the convenience of getting an EAB (which beats the crap out of certified) without the hassle of learning to build one. And, by the way, if you've priced a low time Cirrus lately, you'd think those RV-10 prices weren't so bad afterall.
 
OkieAviator said:
I tell you what... Jason Ellis helped me immensely though my empennege. I think I got my kit around 6 months behind him so I was able to read the plans, watch his video and then work through the part. Several times I went back and watched his steps.

Curious what stops someone from say building an RV-8, then selling it as soon as it pasts inspection and then starting another build. I personally can't see how that would ever be lucrative but I suppose if you build the same model enough you would get fairly efficient... hmmm I wonder how fast I could build another 10.
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Some amatuer builders do in fact do that (well, after the Phase 1 period is flown off anyway). Every build is an "educational/entertainment" experience; perfectly legal. Now, if you started cranking them out Henry Ford style, someone might take notice.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Had to make sure I didn't totally misremember :)
In this one (2017) he talks about considering a career

But here (2019), he is a lot more up to speed.
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Yep those are how I remember them as well. Didn't see it then, don't see it now. He was never talking about hanging up a shingle to offer 'builder services' where 'you buy a kit and I'll build it for you' which is what is being discussed in this thread. Instead he was talking about buying kits and building them 'on spec' and then trying to find a buyer as soon as they're finished. I have seen nothing that has every convinced me that building 'solely for education and recreation' specifically
prohibits building and immediately selling the airplane.

The FAA, more than any other government organization I know (and I deal with DOT regulations daily), chooses the wording of their regulations extremely carefully. If their real and true intent was that builders could only build kit airplanes they had every intention of then owning and flying themselves, it would have been dirt simple for them to word the regulation that way. But they didn't word it that way. Which tells me that building solely for the education and recreation has nothing to do with owning and flying said airplane. If you or anyone else can provide an official letter of opinion which states that a builder must go into the build intending to then own and fly the resulting airplane, I will happily change my opinion. But they did not write that so I'm left to believe they did not intend that.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I have seen nothing that has every convinced me that building 'solely for education and recreation' specifically
prohibits building and immediately selling the airplane.
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And, you won't. But, it would make sense to me that you don't want to undermine your claim that "I'm doing this solely..." by claiming that you are doing it as your day job to support yourself.

Juliet Hotel said:
If you or anyone else can provide an official letter of opinion which states that a builder must go into the build intending to then own and fly the resulting airplane,
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Such a letter or opinion does not exist to the best of my knowledge. But that does not make it a good idea to poke the bear.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
And, you won't. But, it would make sense to me that you don't want to undermine your claim that "I'm doing this solely..." by claiming that you are doing it as your day job to support yourself.
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Absolutely would make sense. But where in this discussion did it ever come up that anyone would claim to do this 'as a day job to support oneself'? You're making a very reasonable assumption here. But its an assumption none the less.

It makes no financial sense to try to build kits for profit. Jason Ellis more or less came to that conclusion in his videos. But lots of people do lots of things that make no financial sense. Again, if the FAA wanted to make it clear that one cannot make a profit from building a kit plane, it would have been extremely easy for them to word the regulation that way.
Such a letter or opinion does not exist to the best of my knowledge. But that does not make it a good idea to poke the bear.
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Oh I disagree. The bear needs poking. That is the only way we get clarification and unfortunately many times, that is the only way we get progress.
 
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The other thing lost in this. Some serial builders are just that... serial builders. They finish one, get it airworthy, sell it, start the next build. Perfectly legal.

But commissioning someone to build for you, provide your specs, pay the guy, and then try to get the repairman's certificate for it. Uh. No!
 
Ravioli said:
The other thing lost in this. Some serial builders are just that... serial builders. They finish one, get it airworthy, sell it, start the next build. Perfectly legal.

But commissioning someone to build for you, provide your specs, pay the guy, and then try to get the repairman's certificate for it. Uh. No!
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But it happens all the time. And frankly? The quality of the airplane is probably better for it.
 
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