How long did the commercial maneuvers take to master?

455 Bravo Uniform

455 Bravo Uniform

Final Approach
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455 Bravo Uniform
I’m working on my CPL.

Question: how many hours did it take you to nail the maneuvers? How many total hours of experience did you have before you started CPL training?

Written is done. I had all the prerequisite hours, except complex/TAA, which I’ll finish the last 1.3 hrs Monday (in a Seminole, just cuz I’ve never flown ME, and probably never will find another excuse). We have not started maneuver training just yet, that will start Wednesday.

I’m just trying to gauge how many days and flights and hours, assuming I’m on the bell curve of pilots (not the top 10% best or the bottom 10% worst). My calendar between now and August is going to get nuts, and then even more so in the fall.
 
7/14/2020 1st comm training flight
10/22/2020 comm checkride

other than an occasional comm steep turn for funsies, haven't done any comm maneuver since the checkride. oh I take that back, I've done a coupl'a power off 180's, also just for funsies.
 
6 hours to get maneuvers ready for the checkride (the other four hours were instrument instruction.) I had 240 TT when I started.

but like @luvflyin , I can’t say I “mastered” the maneuvers for the checkride…my instructor really didn’t understand them any more than I did.
 
I spent 15.1 hours in an intensive Program and then passed. But that was 1) everything including instrument brush up, 2) not my first pass at the maneuvers but it was in a significantly different plane.
 
luvflyin said:
I dunno. Still haven’t ‘mastered’ lazy eights. Did good enough to pass commercial check ride though
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The biggest thing that makes the lazy 8 difficult to master is that for purposes of PTS/ACS the maneuver isn't really a lazy 8.

That watered down crap that is taught and evaluated is just a large S turn with a vertical component (barely) and conscripted points at the 45, 90, 135 where you are trying to match the prescribed pitch and bank angle. You're just flying a path. It's more difficult than the real thing and designed to keep anyone from staining their shorts.

Ever wonder why the lazy 8 is in the section of approved aerobatic maneuvers in your typical C152, C172 etc? Because it is one! Or at least it will seem like one the first time you get it right.

The only one who I have seen explain it properly is this guy:

It's lazy because you basically pull some pitch and about half as much bank as you do pitch, then you hold the controls and do NOTHING. Lazy, right? As the plane crosses over the top and heads back down hill you just slowly let the controls go back to neutral. The wings coming level, along with the increased airspeed you don't even have to add back pressure to level out.

This short clip is from the Citabria I sold last year. This one is pretty mild but I got to where I could achieve near 90 degree bank, near zero G and airspeed sitting on the bottom peg as I crossed the top. A lot of fun actually.

Speaking of stained shorts, do NOT do a real lazy 8 for your DPE. That smell will be your discontinuance.
 
aftCG said:
Ever wonder why the lazy 8 is in the section of approved aerobatic maneuvers in your typical C152, C172 etc? Because it is one!
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You mean along with stalls and steep turns? Yawn. It gets boring how many people try to convince you they've discovered some magic technique for perfecting Lazy 8s. Everything you need to know is in the AFH.

aftCG said:
The only one who I have seen explain it properly is this guy
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Oh please don't watch that unless you want to make your instructor cry. I had a student that watched that video and it took forever to teach him Lazy 8s. The video gave him the impression that the airplane would fly a Lazy 8 all by itself. He also kept insisting on starting with a 5° bank every time (because the video said so) and it was always too much. The bank should start at zero.

Here is a tip. What makes an entertaining YouTube video and what makes good flight instruction are two different things.
 
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dmspilot said:
Here is a tip. What makes an entertaining YouTube video and what makes good flight instruction are two different things.
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And another tip: CFIs will vary on their technique. What works for your commercial instructor won't satisfy your CFI instructor. Instructor B will say instructor A taught you all wrong, just like dmspilot is saying he "knows" the correct way. Maybe he does.

It can be aggravating.
 
aftCG said:
It's lazy because you basically pull some pitch and about half as much bank as you do pitch, then you hold the controls and do NOTHING. Lazy, right?
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Yeah, there were so many people with that misconception that the FAA just gave up.
 
Got my commercial 36 years ago. Never thought I mastered any of them.

They are useless. Never had an ATC instruction telling me to perform a chandelle to the left.
I guess the checkride serves a purpose, but it’s unbeknown to me.
 
Kritchlow said:
Got my commercial 36 years ago. Never thought I mastered any of them.

They are useless. Never had an ATC instruction telling me to perform a chandelle to the left.
I guess the checkride serves a purpose, but it’s unbeknown to me.
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They’re for jobs that don’t involve ATC. ;)
 
10 hours or so and you should be proficient. None of them are even challenging except the power off 180.
 
Took a few lessons for me to fine tune everything. I had like 230 hours when I started commercial training.
 
Great, thanks everyone. I’d love to knock this out in May or early June. Sounds doable. I’ll try to report back here when I’m ready for checkride.
 
The commercial maneuvers are about first understanding and then demonstrating aerodynamic principles.
 
None of them are difficult. Learn the procedure step by step & practice.

I disagree that they're not useful. I use turns about a point when ever someone wants to see & orbit an object on the ground. A chandelle could get you out of a pinch someday.
 
Bonchie said:
10 hours or so and you should be proficient. None of them are even challenging except the power off 180.
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What was difficult about power off 180s for you? Are they harder to do in a "more advanced" airplane? I did some during my private training, in an Archer, and they were super easy and fun, so I'm really curious!
 
SkyChaser said:
What was difficult about power off 180s for you? Are they harder to do in a "more advanced" airplane? I did some during my private training, in an Archer, and they were super easy and fun, so I'm really curious!
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Did you have to perform them to comm standards of -0/+200 of your intended landing spot? (If I remember the standards correctly)
 
SkyChaser said:
What was difficult about power off 180s for you? Are they harder to do in a "more advanced" airplane? I did some during my private training, in an Archer, and they were super easy and fun, so I'm really curious!
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You can cheat with a constant speed prop. Maybe cheat is kinda harsh. But anyway, you can adjust the glide angle by changing the pitch of the prop.
 
eman1200 said:
Did you have to perform them to comm standards of -0/+200 of your intended landing spot? (If I remember the standards correctly)
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I wasn't "required to", as in it wasn't on my checkride and I didn't fail anything if I couldn't, but I was doing them to the standards because my CFI wanted to see if I could. They were probably a lot more fun because I wasn't being tested on whether or not I could hit there. :)
 
My commercial maneuvers consist of running to the kitchen during commercials.

It takes some dedication, but remember, a good pilot is always learning.
See ya!
 
SkyChaser said:
I wasn't "required to", as in it wasn't on my checkride and I didn't fail anything if I couldn't, but I was doing them to the standards because my CFI wanted to see if I could. They were probably a lot more fun because I wasn't being tested on whether or not I could hit there. :)
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I’m aware what the ppl checkride requirements are, I was asking if u did them TO COMMERCIAL specs, not to your CFI’s specs. Makes a big difference when it comes to saying how easy they are to do.
 
eman1200 said:
I’m aware what the ppl checkride requirements are, I was asking if u did them TO COMMERCIAL specs, not to your CFI’s specs. Makes a big difference when it comes to saying how easy they are to do.
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Sorry I wasn't clear. My CFI was having me do power off 180s and holding me to commercial standards to see if I could pull it off. I was not being tested on it, though, so it was just for fun.
 
Power off 180s to the spot were the hardest for me also. It just takes practice and being able to judge where you’re going to land so you can adjust. Just. :)
 
jsstevens said:
Power off 180s to the spot were the hardest for me also. It just takes practice and being able to judge where you’re going to land so you can adjust. Just. :)
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If everyone could do it easily, people wouldn’t miss their normal landing spot so often.
 
eman1200 said:
it's the #1 reason for checkride failure. but I guess to some they're "super easy" :dunno:
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I have no doubt that to some they’re super easy. Both CFIs I flew with for commercial said 8s on pylons were hard. I had 0 trouble doing them from the first trial. Different skills are problems for different folks.
 
jsstevens said:
Power off 180s to the spot were the hardest for me also. It just takes practice and being able to judge where you’re going to land so you can adjust. Just. :)
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I'm an odd duck I guess. I thought short field to a spot was tougher. Dragging it in with power to a smaller target range? I did my commercial in a 172 and had the glide down pat - power off 180s were consistently solid early on. Short fields? I always left the power in too long and would float past the mark... :(
 
kaiser said:
I'm an odd duck I guess. I thought short field to a spot was tougher. Dragging it in with power to a smaller target range? I did my commercial in a 172 and had the glide down pat - power off 180s were consistently solid early on. Short fields? I always left the power in too long and would float past the mark... :(
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I did my short fields over a simulated obstacle…makes it a lot easier.
 
kaiser said:
I'm an odd duck I guess. I thought short field to a spot was tougher. Dragging it in with power to a smaller target range? I did my commercial in a 172 and had the glide down pat - power off 180s were consistently solid early on. Short fields? I always left the power in too long and would float past the mark... :(
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I didn’t struggle with that (in the 172) because I was always so far on the backside of the power curve that when I pulled the throttle it was done flying. I hope I never have to do a short soft field cause that’ll sink.
 
jsstevens said:
I didn’t struggle with that (in the 172) because I was always so far on the backside of the power curve that when I pulled the throttle it was done flying. I hope I never have to do a short soft field cause that’ll sink.
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That would be “mastery, proficiency, and competency.”


• Demonstrate mastery of the aircraft by performing each Task successfully;
• Demonstrate proficiency and competency in accordance with the approved standards;
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I suspect that it somewhat depends on the airplane as well.
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Switching from the 172 to the DA-40 did make a big difference. And the school did not want us bringing them in behind the power curve either (not sure if it’s a safety-don’t even hint at a stall, or tail skid is composite-don’t bump that on the ground).
 
jsstevens said:
I have no doubt that to some they’re super easy. Both CFIs I flew with for commercial said 8s on pylons were hard. I had 0 trouble doing them from the first trial. Different skills are problems for different folks.
Click to expand...

8s on pylons are only “hard” because people don’t teach it right. Pick a straight line, fly a 45 across it and drop your wing. Whatever it lands on is now your point. Do the same on the other side.

If you let the wing pick the point, you won’t be adjusting and stretching to make the maneuver fit the points you picked beforehand. I think lazy 8s are harder to teach than 8s on pylons.

The reason the power off 180 is difficult is because you can do everything right and still catch a gust and miss. It’s also harder in a plane you can’t slip with flaps in. In a Cherokee, it’s easier. In a Cessna, aim way short, dump the flaps with the runway made, get into ground effect, and float.
 
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