How do you CFI's fly from the RH seat?

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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I'm curious about a lot :)
Was just wondering about this, as it seems like the RH seat is a terrible position to fly from at least for a student. In normal instruments (steam gauge, not glass) the airspeed indicator must be almost impossible to see, and really all those other instruments would maybe even be misleading because of the angles, etc.

When we would fly back from practice, my CFI's would concentrate on landing, and really got me wondering if mainly you guys just get so experienced that the sight picture as well as the sound of air rushing past, propeller sounds, etc. is "enough" info for making great landings. Sure seems almost to be that.

The weather is finally starting to get a little better so I can start up again soon I hope. I was reflecting though about another aspect I wanted to ask about. I'm not "active" enough when my instructor lands the plane after practice. For one thing, I guess I have been scared that my big clumsy feet, or hands if I am "following" the control motions the CFI is making on yoke and rudder might hinder him making the full control input he needs to make. Most worried about rudder since you have to have both feet in sync. That he might want to give more right rudder, but my feet keep him from making the full control he wants. Is this an unfounded worry? Have you guys ever experienced some student hindering your motions?

Up to now I have been looking outside the plane as we land, trying to take it all in. Since completing ground school and going over the student pilot handbook, I'm trying to armchair fly a little to make sure I follow what is going on. Still looking outside, but checking flap position, airspeed, VSI, and RPM, and seeing where exactly the landing spot changes over to raising the nose. I am realizing how much more I could have gotten out of landings. Usually I am pretty worn out after an hours flight training, but that is no excuse...I think having goals like watching those might help me get in it better.
 
Practice. As I go my captain training at my airline it’s really weird sitting in the left seat now. Most of my ~3000 hours is in the right seat. I’m left handed and doing things with my left hand is natural so the right seat was perfect for me.
 
It's like changing from flying in your winterboots to your summer sneakers, first flight or two feels a little different than its all gravy, be it left or right, or tandem front or back.
 
Ah, based on your question, it seems your CFI didn't do something I did before allowing a student to solo, and often do with pilots on flight reviews: cover the flight instruments and have them land.

There's a surprise in store: it is far easier than you imagine. So far, I have not seen anything other than a good landing the very first time it was tried.

It was tried on me during a checkout in a new-to-me Tiger (which shares "better be on the proper airspeed" flight characteristics with Mooneys), and I've been using it with pilots ever since.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Ah, based on your question, it seems your CFI didn't do something I did before allowing a student to solo, and often do with pilots on flight reviews: cover the flight instruments and have them land.

There's a surprise in store: it is far easier than you imagine. So far, I have not seen anything other than a good landing the very first time it was tried.

It was tried on me during a checkout in a new-to-me Tiger (which shares "better be on the proper airspeed" flight characteristics with Mooneys), and I've been using it with pilots ever since.
Click to expand...

That's encouraging!
I haven't soloed yet, and have low time (like 8 hours) flying time at this point. Finished ground school, then vacation and weather got in the way.
Was just reviewing in my mind, and notes, from my flying so long ago.
Was still pretty curious, if you guys sneak peaks at the airspeed indicator, and all as I couldn't see him doing it.

Also still wondering if a student "feeling" the control like rudder ever gets in the way of the pilot, clumsy student feet stopping the pilot in the RH seat from giving as much rudder or on the yoke or if is just "works out" ok.

Weather is starting to improve!
 
LongRoadBob said:
That's encouraging!
I haven't soloed yet, and have low time (like 8 hours) flying time at this point. Finished ground school, then vacation and weather got in the way.
Was just reviewing in my mind, and notes, from my flying so long ago.
Was still pretty curious, if you guys sneak peaks at the airspeed indicator, and all as I couldn't see him doing it.

Also still wondering if a student "feeling" the control like rudder ever gets in the way of the pilot, clumsy student feet stopping the pilot in the RH seat from giving as much rudder or on the yoke or if is just "works out" ok.

Weather is starting to improve!
Click to expand...
Sure we sneak peeks if the instruments are there. But VFR "peeks" should eventually be similar to the peeks you give to a car speedometer while driving on a 100 kph Highway - a glance to confirm what your eyes and other senses are telling you, not something to divert your attention.
 
LongRoadBob said:
That's encouraging!
Also still wondering if a student "feeling" the control like rudder ever gets in the way of the pilot, clumsy student feet stopping the pilot in the RH seat from giving as much rudder or on the yoke or if is just "works out" ok.
Click to expand...
Proper rudder control is made a bit more difficult at the beginning because we are just about sitting on the CG. So we don't really feel the yaw unless it's pretty significant (at least in a nosewheel airplane). There are, however, exercises which can help improve coordination independent of staring at the ball.
 
LongRoadBob said:
IWas just wondering about this, as it seems like the RH seat is a terrible position to fly from at least for a student. In normal instruments (steam gauge, not glass) the airspeed indicator must be almost impossible to see, and really all those other instruments would maybe even be misleading because of the angles, etc.
Click to expand...

You can see enough of the airspeed indicator to get the necessary information from it. The heading indicator (DG) and the ball of the turn coordinator do suffer from parallax but you learn to take that into account. And as midlife said, you don't really need them much anyway. Pitch + Power = Performance.

LongRoadBob said:
Most worried about rudder since you have to have both feet in sync. That he might want to give more right rudder, but my feet keep him from making the full control he wants. Is this an unfounded worry? Have you guys ever experienced some student hindering your motions?
Click to expand...

Only time I've experienced some student hindering my motions is when they fight me and try to make opposing inputs.
 
You get quite used to it with practice. I tend to fly from the right seat in my own airplane even when I'm alone.
 
Not a CFI but I fly from the right occasionally just for fun. Perhaps driving in Australia and England have helped teach that either side is the same but different. The plane doesn't know what side you're sitting on and as others noted you don't need the instruments to land. Keeping your eyes outside and listening will help more than watching stuff that keeps your eyes inside. If anything it keeps your mind a bit fresher and both hands working.

Frank
 
Whoa! You mean I've been doing it wrong all these years instructing by sitting on the left side? :eek:
 
midlifeflyer said:
Proper rudder control is made a bit more difficult at the beginning because we are just about sitting on the CG. So we don't really feel the yaw unless it's pretty significant (at least in a nosewheel airplane). There are, however, exercises which can help improve coordination independent of staring at the ball.
Click to expand...

What are they?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Proper rudder control is made a bit more difficult at the beginning because we are just about sitting on the CG. So we don't really feel the yaw unless it's pretty significant (at least in a nosewheel airplane). There are, however, exercises which can help improve coordination independent of staring at the ball.
Click to expand...

That, and aren’t the pedals reversed over there?
 
jordane93 said:
Practice. As I go my captain training at my airline it’s really weird sitting in the left seat now. Most of my ~3000 hours is in the right seat. I’m left handed and doing things with my left hand is natural so the right seat was perfect for me.
Click to expand...
Besides tradition, what's keeping a 121/135 op from permitting a Captain to sit in the right seat if he/she desires to?
 
AggieMike88 said:
Besides tradition, what's keeping a 121/135 op from permitting a Captain to sit in the right seat if he/she desires to?
Click to expand...
My company’s FOM. Only people that are allowed to occupy the right seat are FOs and line check airman. Not sure if it’s a 121 reg.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Besides tradition, what's keeping a 121/135 op from permitting a Captain to sit in the right seat if he/she desires to?
Click to expand...

Well like Jordan said, at the very least company SOPs and the FAA. Plus the steering tiller for larger planes is on the Captain's side, even turbo props.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm curious about a lot :)
Was just wondering about this, as it seems like the RH seat is a terrible position to fly from at least for a student. In normal instruments (steam gauge, not glass) the airspeed indicator must be almost impossible to see, and really all those other instruments would maybe even be misleading because of the angles, etc.
Click to expand...

Depends on the airplane and panel, but many are awful. Some are great. Can’t read the ASI directly in my 182 from the right seat at all. Impossible. But power settings and experience take care of it.

LongRoadBob said:
When we would fly back from practice, my CFI's would concentrate on landing, and really got me wondering if mainly you guys just get so experienced that the sight picture as well as the sound of air rushing past, propeller sounds, etc. is "enough" info for making great landings. Sure seems almost to be that.
Click to expand...

I’m with @midlifeflyer here, anyone, not just a CFI can land a plane just fine with the instruments covered. You should have your CFI let you try it. Yes, there’s a lot of information your brain can pick up on that’ll replace the instruments, VFR.

I had zero trouble switching seats in the twin. I had a hell of a time at first switching seats in my own airplane. 300+ hours in the other seat and the wrong eyeball dominant really screwed with me for a while. Now it’s no big deal.

LongRoadBob said:
The weather is finally starting to get a little better so I can start up again soon I hope. I was reflecting though about another aspect I wanted to ask about. I'm not "active" enough when my instructor lands the plane after practice. For one thing, I guess I have been scared that my big clumsy feet, or hands if I am "following" the control motions the CFI is making on yoke and rudder might hinder him making the full control input he needs to make. Most worried about rudder since you have to have both feet in sync. That he might want to give more right rudder, but my feet keep him from making the full control he wants. Is this an unfounded worry? Have you guys ever experienced some student hindering your motions?
Click to expand...

Most of the time students are timid on controls, not overcontrolling, so if you’re light on the rudder, he’ll just stomp it to the floor if he needs it and your clumsy feet won’t be any problem at all. And of course, the same rule for you applies for him, if you can’t land it, go around. Not a big deal usually. If you’ve decided to do the opposite thing and jam the wrong rudder pedal to the floor, he’ll just go around and be hollering “my airplane!” Haha. It’s not as embarrassing or awful as it sounds... tailwheel instructors have to stomp rudder pedals all the time.

Plus usually they’re ahead of the airplane at least a little more than you are and they’re going to know you’re trying to kill them before you do. Hahaha. Kidding. Kinda. That’s a joke. But not really. :)

I’m a total klutz with my feet. Big wide feet and about once a year I manage to fall down my own stairs at home. You’ll get them moving fast enough and with the right pressures with practice, don’t worry about that either. My Primary instructor used to joke long long ago that, “We need to connect your feet to your brain.” LOL. If I can do it, anybody can. You should see me try to dance. It’s a painful thing for everyone involved, even if just watching. :)

LongRoadBob said:
Up to now I have been looking outside the plane as we land, trying to take it all in. Since completing ground school and going over the student pilot handbook, I'm trying to armchair fly a little to make sure I follow what is going on. Still looking outside, but checking flap position, airspeed, VSI, and RPM, and seeing where exactly the landing spot changes over to raising the nose. I am realizing how much more I could have gotten out of landings. Usually I am pretty worn out after an hours flight training, but that is no excuse...I think having goals like watching those might help me get in it better.
Click to expand...

I’m surprised your instructor isn’t having you make the landings after multiple flights, honestly. Can’t say from here why not, but most instructors will just get on with it. If not flight number one, usually flight number two. They just need to know they’ve shown you the relationships of the flight controls out in the practice area and then let you start trying it, sometimes they’ll handle power or help out on all the controls while explaining why.

Maybe, and I don’t know from here, of course, he or she feels like you’re worried and that you want to feel more confident watching a few before tackling it, but I’m just used to seeing instructors dive right into landings. Most students need as much practice as they can get.

I guess the other possibility you’ve hinted at is weather. Have winds been insane? Even then, they usually let you try...

You probably don’t know really, but if you’re up for it, just ask if you can do some with them following on the controls. You’ll get feedback on why or why not that way, at least. Go for it, you have to do it to earn that PIC title anyway...
 
denverpilot said:
Depends on the airplane and panel, but many are awful. Some are great. Can’t read the ASI directly in my 182 from the right seat at all. Impossible. But power settings and experience take care of it.



I’m with @midlifeflyer here, anyone, not just a CFI can land a plane just fine with the instruments covered. You should have your CFI let you try it. Yes, there’s a lot of information your brain can pick up on that’ll replace the instruments, VFR.

I had zero trouble switching seats in the twin. I had a hell of a time at first switching seats in my own airplane. 300+ hours in the other seat and the wrong eyeball dominant really screwed with me for a while. Now it’s no big deal.



Most of the time students are timid on controls, not overcontrolling, so if you’re light on the rudder, he’ll just stomp it to the floor if he needs it and your clumsy feet won’t be any problem at all. And of course, the same rule for you applies for him, if you can’t land it, go around. Not a big deal usually. If you’ve decided to do the opposite thing and jam the wrong rudder pedal to the floor, he’ll just go around and be hollering “my airplane!” Haha. It’s not as embarrassing or awful as it sounds... tailwheel instructors have to stomp rudder pedals all the time.

Plus usually they’re ahead of the airplane at least a little more than you are and they’re going to know you’re trying to kill them before you do. Hahaha. Kidding. Kinda. That’s a joke. But not really. :)

I’m a total klutz with my feet. Big wide feet and about once a year I manage to fall down my own stairs at home. You’ll get them moving fast enough and with the right pressures with practice, don’t worry about that either. My Primary instructor used to joke long long ago that, “We need to connect your feet to your brain.” LOL. If I can do it, anybody can. You should see me try to dance. It’s a painful thing for everyone involved, even if just watching. :)



I’m surprised your instructor isn’t having you make the landings after multiple flights, honestly. Can’t say from here why not, but most instructors will just get on with it. If not flight number one, usually flight number two. They just need to know they’ve shown you the relationships of the flight controls out in the practice area and then let you start trying it, sometimes they’ll handle power or help out on all the controls while explaining why.

Maybe, and I don’t know from here, of course, he or she feels like you’re worried and that you want to feel more confident watching a few before tackling it, but I’m just used to seeing instructors dive right into landings. Most students need as much practice as they can get.

I guess the other possibility you’ve hinted at is weather. Have winds been insane? Even then, they usually let you try...

You probably don’t know really, but if you’re up for it, just ask if you can do some with them following on the controls. You’ll get feedback on why or why not that way, at least. Go for it, you have to do it to earn that PIC title anyway...
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the information!

I think I wasn't clear, I'm not worried about when I will land, but mainly just that I don't hinder the CFI from control changes by being slow or being in the way of the controls, not a light enough touch.

I hear you about landing, and will soon but two main factors I think. I was kinda unlucky (and lucky) in that my first instructor I only had two lessons with. He was GREAT. Really good prep/briefing before we took off, and his style is great for me to take in information. But he had a flying job (charting something from the air) that he found out took too much of his time, so he had to quit instructing. Next instructor I had no confidence in. He didn't seem to me to be very interested, or instructive, and he also could never count on being able to fly on weekend in advance, hard to plan flights.
So I switched...anyway ended up with four different instructors, 7 or so flights. My current CFI I think would have let me land, but I really wasn't ready. Hadn't gone through enough on ground school AND... I was having a little trouble with being worn out after an hour of flying AND also a bit of nausea, so it was more me making the decision.

I've stocked up on ginger gum (can't get it here but found it on Amazon) and adjust my eating/water intake so maybe that will help. My last flight I was not feeling well at all and ended up...well, it was mostly water, but still.

So, I've gone through the procedure many times in my mind, reading, listening, etc. and feel like maybe the next flight I can try and land it.

Weather is clearing up, no it hasn't been wind, but VMC that got in the way. Fog, overcast, low ceilings, etc. But now we have a cold (VERY cold) snap and the skies are clearing a bit.

Next question: How warm can a 172 get, if it is like -10 C (14 F) outside at sea level?
 
LongRoadBob said:
Weather is clearing up, no it hasn't been wind, but VMC that got in the way. Fog, overcast, low ceilings, etc. But now we have a cold (VERY cold) snap and the skies are clearing a bit.

Next question: How warm can a 172 get, if it is like -10 C (14 F) outside at sea level?
Click to expand...

I think you meant to say IMC. ;) And I see now, you’re on a couple of flights with latest instructor. Okay.

Heater depends on the airplane, but when they’re working right, a Cessna will usually do a good job of cooking you right out of the cockpit if you want it to and pull the heat knob all the way out, once the engine has warmed up. It won’t be stellar taxiing though, until the first takeoff. And you have to close all the cold air vents. Sometimes the can vents up above make some noise if they don’t seal well, and people leave them a crack open to stop the whistling but they usually don’t overpower the heater.
 
denverpilot said:
I think you meant to say IMC. ;) And I see now, you’re on a couple of flights with latest instructor. Okay.

Heater depends on the airplane, but when they’re working right, a Cessna will usually do a good job of cooking you right out of the cockpit if you want it to and pull the heat knob all the way out, once the engine has warmed up. It won’t be stellar taxiing though, until the first takeoff. And you have to close all the cold air vents. Sometimes the can vents up above make some noise if they don’t seal well, and people leave them a crack open to stop the whistling but they usually don’t overpower the heater.
Click to expand...

Heh...yes. Well, I was trying to say "it hasn't been VMC weather" but better to say it has been "IMC".

Thanks for the tip. Yes, It's VERY cold right now. I can imagine taxiing being a chattering teeth kinda thing.
 
I fly my airplane from the right seat. It took a few flights to get adjusted but now it feels natural. The maddest part was getting my landings straight without a crab. Just a different sight picture.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Heh...yes. Well, I was trying to say "it hasn't been VMC weather" but better to say it has been "IMC".

Thanks for the tip. Yes, It's VERY cold right now. I can imagine taxiing being a chattering teeth kinda thing.
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Eh? Dress for the weather and enjoy it. If the heater actually works then that’s a bonus.
 
Clark1961 said:
Eh? Dress for the weather and enjoy it. If the heater actually works then that’s a bonus.
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Hey! Some of us have dumb autopilots and can’t bring a thermos full of coffee!

Hahaha. Those stainless steel cups work if you don’t let them spill and/or they have a top that locks closed. Haha.
 
LongRoadBob said:
Heh...yes. Well, I was trying to say "it hasn't been VMC weather" but better to say it has been "IMC".

Thanks for the tip. Yes, It's VERY cold right now. I can imagine taxiing being a chattering teeth kinda thing.
Click to expand...

Don’t worry, once you have the hang of things, I haven’t met an instructor yet who couldn’t make me sweat. LOL.

@jesse made me sweat and it was -10F outside. :)
 
I flew right seat for one of my flight reviews. I think it makes be a better safety pilot, and since I fly some of those crazy 1 door airplanes it's sometimes nice to be sitting on the door side.
 
denverpilot said:
Hey! Some of us have dumb autopilots and can’t bring a thermos full of coffee!

Hahaha. Those stainless steel cups work if you don’t let them spill and/or they have a top that locks closed. Haha.
Click to expand...
How do you take a nap then wake up to enjoy a nice cup of coffee while in flight? Oh the horrors....
 
AggieMike88 said:
Besides tradition, what's keeping a 121/135 op from permitting a Captain to sit in the right seat if he/she desires to?
Click to expand...

We used to alternate in 135 - the pilot flying would sit in the left seat. As Jordan said, in 121 our manual requires the CA be in the left seat, but I think it's mostly a tradition thing. I don't believe the 121 regs actually require it.

As an aside, most of the birds at my company have tillers only on the left side of the cockpit, the HUDs are only on the left side, and so on.
 
It is a little weird at first but you get used to it pretty fast. Shoot I've still only got about 10 hours in the right seat (working on CFI now) but I'd say after about an hour of pattern work it felt fine.
 
My CFI says it feels weird being in the left seat...sight picture is all messed up.
 
shoot, did my initial heli in a Bell 47 LH PIC, instrument heli in 300CBI RH PIC, back to the 47 for Comm, started flying tours right after switching from B47 LH PIC to Robinson 44 RH PIC daily, did all my airplane stuff LH PIC got a job at the airlines as an FO where I sit RH...

as everyone else said, you just get used to it and yea, you'll know something isn't right long before an instrument tells you :)
 
Nothing wrong with Right-Seat flying. It's a skill that instructors have to master. There is a bit of parallax in viewing instruments, but you learn to accomodate this, and it makes your a better pilot. Becoming a CFI or II, beyond the in-depth oral evaluations, is the ability to fly private/commercial PTS tasks and Instrument tasks withing standards from the RS, while giving instruction to the FAA inspector or DPE sitting in the LS. The best thing I did to prepare for my initial CFI certificate was to accustom myself to flying my Cherokee comfortably from the LS. After that, it was a few writtens, and a couple of checkrides.
 
To me a lot of it is just feeling what the aircraft and the environment are doing. I can tell a lot by just looking and feeling what the student is doing.

Even in 121 a lot of my adjustments during landings are just reactions to what I feel the plane doing or the environment. As an example this past week I've mainly been doing hand flown visuals because of the insane winds and turbulence. I can control the plane better hand flying then reacting to what the autopilot is trying to do. I can react now vs trying to react correctly to the autopilot.
 
It was odd at first, my first few landings int he right seat during CFI training left a lot to be desired, but over time you learn it and it becomes natural, now i can swap between left and right seats in just about any single I've flown and feel comfortable. Even in the airlines when i first transitioned from right seat to left seat the first few landings in the sim took some adjustments but you just learn to know what the new sight picture is.
 
Takes about an hour of pattern work and your used to it. I’m a low time newbie CFI but even now after 100 hrs dual given I don’t even really use instruments the site picture for climbs descents patterns and turns gets burned in your head. You can hear if fast or slow. Flying 4 to 8 hrs a day has its advantages.
 
Fly from either seat, left right, front back, does not matter. You learn and adapt.
 
On the flight to PUB the other day I told Karen to climb in the left seat. I didn’t feel “normal” getting in on that side.

Plus my iPad holder was still attached to the window on the right side, since I left it there after the CFI ride. LOL.

I joked with her that even if she’s not interested in learning to fly, some young girl might see her climbing out of that side and think “Yes!”

Which is fine by me! :) She thought it was pretty cool too.
 
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